Does Axis' Intelligence not know about Matida well?

[Snow Leopard]

Does Axis' intelligence not aware of how thick of armor on Matida and how rarity Allies have them on hand at Africa in 1940? I wonder if they knew about it then they could get more powerful anti-tank gun. Maybe Matida's speed had them less worry?

Does most of military prefer keep secret how thickness of their tank if enemy had't capture one or stole data of them.

[JasonC]

The Germans met Matildas in France in May of 1940. They also met Char Bs. Both completely outclassed their own tanks in armor. They ordered Pz IIIs upgunned from 37mm to 50mm in response.

The ordnance department switched an initial order for a 50L60 upgrade to a 50L42 upgrade, as easier to do. Tanks don't fight tanks was doctrine at the time. (The Germans went through the same doctrinal series of steps as the US did later, they just went through them 18-24 months faster). That wasn't fixed until after they met the T-34 in 1941.

As for the Italians, they never produced an AFV gun that was effective against a Matilda. Wasn't a lack of intel in their case, it was a lack of ability.

[Snow Leopard]

So Did German capture Matilda Mk II at France? They should know 50mm cannon won't stop Matilda's front and side even rear. Oh I see about Italian not have much of ability and motivtion to build better AFV as they was so busy focus on navy force.

[Grey Hunter]

I don't know about france, but i would guess so. they certainly captured and used matildas in the desert.

[JasonC]

"They should know 50mm cannon won't stop Matilda"

50L42 won't. They ordered 50L60, but the rear area types decided the 50L42 was easier to give them. 50L60 works fine against Matildas. You want flat hits or close range, sure - or APCR. But the gun will do it. They were stuck with the 50L42 because the rear guys messed it up. It wasn't until after they encountered the T-34 in Russia in 1941 that they corrected it.

[Andreas]

Originally posted by Snow Leopard:

So Did German capture Matilda Mk II at France?

Yes they did capture Matilda II at the battle of Arras, and probably also some that were left behind at Dunkerque.

[zukkov]

wasn't the matilda the reason the germans used 88s in an a-t role?

[Andreas]

Originally posted by zukkov:

wasn't the matilda the reason the germans used 88s in an a-t role?

No.

[MikeyD]

"I'm reminded of a line I heard in a war documentary many years ago (let's hope I remember this right). After one battle British prisoners were being escorted back through the German lines. As they passed the anti-tank emplacements one Brit officer protested "It's damned unfair you using 88s against our Matildas like that." to which the Germans responded "It's damned unfair that your Matildas can only be stopped by our 88s!"

[Snow Leopard]

Originally posted by MikeyD:

"I'm reminded of a line I heard in a war documentary many years ago (let's hope I remember this right). After one battle British prisoners were being escorted back through the German lines. As they passed the anti-tank emplacements one Brit officer protested "It's damned unfair you using 88s against our Matildas like that." to which the Germans responded "It's damned unfair that your Matildas can only be stopped by our 88s!"

That was a interest documentary, thank you for share with us MikeyD!

[Rabidbvr]

Hello one and all

i may have posted this site in a prev life...

http://www.wwiivehicles.com/html/britain/matilda.html

has some good info on hows and whys of the time of prod

take care all

happy hunting

[JasonC]

To amplify Andreas' "no", which is correct, the Germans tried out using 88s for direct fire as early as the war in Spain. No Matildas there.

[Little_Black_Devil]

So Did German capture Matilda Mk II at France?

If memory serves, only 23 Matilda II's ever made it to, and saw action in France. I believe most of them, were destroyed at the Battle of Arras in May 1940.

Needless to say, as the Germans shoved the Brits off the continent and forced the French into capitulation - so they subsequently owned the battlefield shortly thereafter.

Thus, it would seem to follow that at their leisure, they would have recovered and scrutinized every destroyed and abandoned Allied tank after the battle to glean as much intel as they could.

On a side note, Its interesting to read Jentz's "Tank Combat in North Africa" and Bierman's "The Battle of Alamein" and see how they applied this "knowledge" of the MatildaII.

It appears that even by late 1941 the Matilda II was still a respected adversary, but its limitations and weaknesses were known.

In particular, the Germans made note of the Matida II's tendancy to catch fire, when HE was fired into/onto its rear deck. While the 50mm L/42 may have been capeable of this task - the 75mm L/24 and 88mm L/56 would seem to have been better suited for it.

Thus - a weakness of the Matilda II was exploited, which didn't actually require that the thick hide of the Matilda II actually be penetrated.

From what little I know, I think its difficult to determine whether or not the Germans "discovered" this from the captured Matilda II's they had in France, or from their more recent experiences in North Africa.

In any event - the Matilda II was a vaunted opponent to any German tank of 1940 vintage, but as guns, munitions and tactics improved, so too did the Germans ability to "handle" the Matilda II.

[Mick15]

Originally posted by JasonC

To amplify Andreas' "no", which is correct, the Germans tried out using 88s for direct fire as early as the war in Spain. No Matildas there.

Technically correct but a tad curt on both your parts I think and likely to strangle any other discussion at birth.

Yes the 88 was used in an A/T role in Spain and Krupps were manufacturing AP ammunition for the 88 from 1937 or 38. So the Matilda was not 'the' reason that the 88 was used in the AT role but it would be wrong to give the impression there was no relationship between Matilda and 88.

As with most technological and doctrinal changes many factors apply.

Received wisdom is that Rommel averted potential disaster for his 7Pz div at Arras with an A/T screen including 88s.

In the desert under the same commander Matilda MkIIs are stopped using 88s when an existing combined arms doctrine is further developed and evolved. This at a time when stopping Matildas is a pressing issue.

There is plenty of evidence of a clear (German) awareness of the vulnerability of the 88 to HE. However at the time we are considering their opponents had no HE capability in their main tank armament (the 2pdr) and were showing a comprehensive inability to successfully marry artillery support to tank operations unless in set piece operations. DAK however possessed these few guns able to hit and damage enemy armour at prodigious ranges.

Were the 88s successful against Matildas? - obviously.

Did this success contribute to their continued use in this role? - of course, success is a major driving force in any developmental endeavours. Particularly when achieved against a notorious (from the axis viewpoint) adversary.

Was this success (of the 88) against the vaunted Matilda the only factor involved? - Absolutely not and as Andreas and JasonC pointed out not the initial impetus either.

What is interesting is debate of the reasons why the actual and 'psychological' ascendancy of the 88 remained potent so long after it usurped the Matilda as 'Queen of the Desert'.

I suppose the assessment of the Middle East Command's Technical Intelligence Section (Expanded to two officers and a truck in 1941) that 88s could not penetrate the armour of a Matilda at ranges above 440 yards did not help. It must have impressed the crews of the RAC. Uses for this bit of paperwork 'Up the Blue'?

[Andreas]

Originally posted by Mick15:

There is plenty of evidence of a clear (German) awareness of the vulnerability of the 88 to HE. However at the time we are considering their opponents had no HE capability in their main tank armament (the 2pdr) and were showing a comprehensive inability to successfully marry artillery support to tank operations unless in set piece operations. DAK however possessed these few guns able to hit and damage enemy armour at prodigious ranges.

Actually they did have that ability at the time we are considering. French tanks had HE in 1940. As did Soviet tanks. The Germans still used the 88, and even more vulnerable guns, such as the divisional artillery guns sFH 18, lFH18 and K18, in an AT role. Needs must, or sumfink.

DAK just got lucky because of the fecklessness of the recently unhorsed upper-class twits from the Cavalry who would not be able to recognise combined arms if it came and bit them in the a*se, and the utter cluelessness of the Whitehall bureaucrats, who did not send HE to the desert.

[Snow Leopard]

When someone bring "Flak 8.8 at Spain" up, I started to remember some documentaries. It was about 20 yrs ago when I read ASL magazines which have some ASL scenarios inside, there is a scenario about flak group with Flak 8.8 caught off guard as enemy force show up and group have to use Flak 8.8 to fight them off. Maybe some of you still have old ASL scenario then look up story, place and date so we can look up history book about event. Of course they may don't carry AP.

Again, Flak 8.8 at France was used by Luftwaffe. I am not sure they do carry AP this time as they may not expect France tanks overrun their airfield or while on convey and catch under attack by enemy tanks? Finally, Flak 8.8 at Halfaya Pass attack against about 300 tanks. I am not sure if they do have AP as they only use HE for attack bombers in air. I think some of members may right if they have books on hands. I only rememeber some because of read books long time ago and many of my books was at my storage off site and had read some books at public librany so long time. So I have to be more faith with you as some members in that forums when you bring WWII documentary up to see if I remember some of it. Cheerful

[ February 13, 2004, 10:35 PM: Message edited by: Snow Leopard ]

[Mick15]

QUOTE] Actually they did have that ability at the time we are considering. French tanks had HE in 1940. As did Soviet tanks. The Germans still used the 88, and even more vulnerable guns, such as the divisional artillery guns sFH 18, lFH18 and K18, in an AT role. Needs must, or sumfink.

DAK just got lucky because of the fecklessness of the recently unhorsed upper-class twits from the Cavalry who would not be able to recognise combined arms if it came and bit them in the a*se, and the utter cluelessness of the Whitehall bureaucrats, who did not send HE to the desert

[Snow Leopard]

Also Flak 8.8 is so huge piece and require bigger support stuff and truck to transportion and support them so I wonder that they don't move Flak 8.8 to poistion to attack incoming tanks but just for protect installion or luftwaffe airfield even supply point from enemy air attack. It will be amazing to me to have Flak 88 at Spain in 1936 due to remote and logical. One of website said that they test use AP on 8,8 flak at Spain...Is that fact?

[ February 13, 2004, 11:13 PM: Message edited by: Snow Leopard ]

[von Lucke]

I posted this before (in one of the Italian threads?), but here it is again:

During the opening attack of Op Battleaxe (June '41) at Halfaya Pass, a troop of 6 Matildas was put out of action by Italian 47mm ATG's. The Italians new they had no chance of penetrating the armor, so they concentrated fire on the tracks. An imobilized Matilda is just a heavily armored 2pdr --- not much to worry about, when yr at the top of the Heights, and they're at the bottom.

[Andreas]

Originally posted by Snow Leopard:

Again, Flak 8.8 at France was used by Luftwaffe. I am not sure they do carry AP this time as they may not expect France tanks overrun their airfield or while on convey and catch under attack by enemy tanks?

They may all have been with the Luftwaffe, but they were tactically assigned to Heer divisions in a lot of cases. There were also 88 on SP (FAMO 18t HT), which were really only intended for ground use (bunkers, AT), assigned to Panzerdivisions.

Divisional AA

1. PD - leFla Abt. 83

7. PD - leFla Abt. 59

Assigned AA

7.PD - assigned Fla Abt. 86 and 1 battery Fla Abt. 23

Assigned AT

1. PD - one battery sPzJgd Abt. 8 (8,8cm)

The last one of these should settle the discussion on whether 88 were intended as AT before the campaign began.

[Andreas]

Originally posted by Mick15:

The 'feckless twits' line is also too simplistic.

I know - I was exaggerating to make a point.

[Rabidbvr]

Hello one and all... a little ref for you all and a nice pic

88 mm German AA guns used as anti-tank guns during the Battle of Arras shown in military art print. The Battle of Arras by David Pentland. German 88mm guns of Rommel's 7th Panzer division devastate Matilda tanks of the British 1st Tank Brigade of the British Expeditionary Force (BEF).

THE BATTLE - ARRAS

Rommel's report of being attacked by 'hundreds of tanks' put a halt to the German advance for 24 hours. This break gave the British troops the time they needed to arrange the retreat through Dunkirk. In an effort to restrain the Germans advance the British 1st Tank Brigade, 6th Durham Light Infantry and the French 3rd Light Armoured Division were quickly mustered under the command of Major General Franklyn. The subsequent attack on Rommel's 7th Panzer Division divided the panzers into two, devastated two rifle regiments, and some of the 3rd SS Division panicked and ran. However, Rommel eventually beat off the British tanks using his anti-aircraft guns.

happy hunting...

[Rabidbvr]

Hello one and all

bit of a read for you seems not a great many MatII at the battle of Arras... less than you may think..

1. The Plan.

------------

Gen Gamelin ordered 'Instruction No12' on 19th June for

an attack towards Mezieres from the south, and the Somme

from the north. This was cancelled by Weygand on assuming

command, who also ordered the roads cleared of refugees

and the un-mothballing of as many WWI 75s as possible.

On the 20th while Weygand flew around over Northern France

having meetings, Gen Ironside ordered Gen Gort to

attack south with all possible strength at 0800 hours on

that day. Gort pointed out that seven of his nine divisions

were already engaged and refused. He said that he was

instead planning a limited attack with his two unengaged

divisions south from Arras.

Ironsides then went to see Billotte (Gorts nominal

commander) and bullied Billotte and Blanchard into accepting

the attack plan, and it ws agreed that both armies would

attack with two divisions each on the 21st.

2. Forces committed

-------------------

Attack was coordinated by Major General Franklyn (GOC

5th Div) and he was allotted 5th and 50th Div plus 1st

Army Tank Brigade.

BUT, the infantry divisions only had two brigades each, one

from 5th Div was sent to relieve the French on the river Scarpe

and the other brigade (17th) was held in reserve.

50th Div lost a brigade to garrison Arras itself and to hold the

river line east of the city.

So, all that was left for the attack were two battalions of

151st Brigade (50th Div), plus the armour.

1st Army Tank Brigade started with 100 tanks, but by the 21st

its runners consisted of 58 Matilda Is and 16 Matilda IIs. It

may also have had some light Vickers IV or VI in the

regimental scout troops (not mentioned in Horne).

Meanwhile late on the 20th Blanchard informed Gort that the

French infantry could not attack until the 22nd, so instead

Priouxs Cavalry Corps was allotted to provide flank cover

to the West. Unfortunately Prioux had already lost most

of 1st DLM fighting Hoeppner,a nd the rest of his tanks had

lent to various infantry units, even by 1700 hours on the 20th

he had not succeeded in reassembling his armour. He was only

able to commit "a few weak detachments of 3rd DLM" - I believe

this amounted to around a battlion of H39s.

No RAF or ZOAN support was forthcoming.

The attack finally went in at 1400 hours on the 21st.

3. The attack

-------------

Gen Martel led from an open car. The troops were divided

into two equal sized columns of a tank battalion, an

infantry battalion (DLI - Durham Light Infantry) plus a

battery of field artillery and AT guns. These would probably

have been 18/25 pdrs (eight or twelve guns) and the AT guns

would be Swedish 37mm Bofors AT guns (three troops of four

each). The tanks seem to have been equally divided up.

The right hand column - fought to clear Duisans and left two

infantry companies & some AT to garrison it. Pushed on to

Warlus, again captured after a stiff fight, took Berneville,

and put troops across the Doullen-Arras road. The infantry

were pinned down by MG/mortar fire and attacked by Stukas.

The tanks left them behind and attacked Wailly where they

caused panic among the lead units of 3rd SSTK. They were now

overextended and the whole force fell back to Warlus with

heavy losses, where the British AT gunners and Priouxs tanks

fought each other! Some of the French tanks (six) than

engaged 25th Panzer Regiment around Duisans.

The left hand column - fought all the way but made rapid

progress. Took Dainville, destroying a "motorised column"

in the process (vehicles KO'd, troops made prisoner). Two

miles east six Matildas wiped out an AT battery near Achicourt

then pushed on to Agny and Beaurains, a few units reached

Wancourt on the River Cojeul (the objective of the attack).

Most of the heavy fighting took place in the Agny-Beaurains

area between 4th RTR and German 6th Rifle Brigade, backed up

by the Div artillery and Flak of 7th Panzer Div. Both sides

suffered heavy losses.

Meanwhile 150th Brigade (50th Div) attacked across the Scarpe

to Tilloy, and 13th Brigade also established a bridghead.

However it was obvious that the ground could not be held, and

the whole force fell back as 25th Panzer Reg approached Arras

from the west. They took 400 prisnoers, destroyed "large

numbers" of tanks and vehicles, but were left with only

26 Matilda Is and 2 Matilda IIs.

4. The German View

------------------

(You may have most of this already from The Rommel Papers).

3rd SSTK evidently abandoned its positions in Wailly and

showed 'signs of panic' (Guderian).

Rommel was busy trying to round up 6th and 7th Rifle brigades

to support 25th Pz Reg when the attack started. He couldn't

find 7th Bde.

He found elements of 6th Bde south of Wailly, and howitzers

north of the village were engaging British tanks. The village

itself came under MG fire as Rommel reached it. He found that

the vilage was jammed with troops and vehicles trying to take

cover (RtC!). West of Wailly were some light AA guns and AT

guns again hiding in full cover, and there were some destroyed

German tanks (he says Pz III, they must have been Pz38s).

The German infantry and gun crews in the village then broke and

ran. At this point Rommel brought up all the available guns,

both AA and AT and concentrated their fire on each group of

tanks, evidently with some success as the attack petered out

(this was the high water mark of the right hand column).

Rommel reports several British tanks destroyed or disabled,

and the rest retreating.

By the time he got the rest of 6th Rifle reg it had suffered

'very heavy losses in men and material' and he reports

the overrunning of their light AT batteries. He organised

a gun line between Agny and Beaurains from the Div artillery

and heavy AA (88) batteries - according to Guderian there

were at most six of these. This finished off the attack in the

north, one 88 battery claiming nine kills.

25th Panzer Reg eventually intervened, and Rommel reports the

destruction of seven tanks for the loss of nine of his own (no

mention of the French though) fighting NW of Arras.

He had lost 'considerable numbers' of tanks, 205 dead or wounded,

and 173 missing (presumably the remaining 200 prisoners were

from 3rd SS).

[Rabidbvr]

Hello one and all

a nice info site ref the Matilda used in russia

http://www.battlefield.ru/library/lend/matilda.html

take care all

happy hunting

[Stalin's Organ]

A set of WW2 figure gaming rules I have says that many Matildas at Arras were "destroyed" by 20mm AA settign fire to stores outside them, forcing their abandonment.

i have no primary source or other backup for this tho.