Canadians and the Thompson SMG

[Shadow 1st Hussars]

I've been looking through my Uncle's photos from the war. He was a Sgt with the 48th Highlanders in Italy. I noticed that most of the submachine guns in use where not Stens, but rather Thompsons. I've looked through various books and also seen many Canadians with the Thompson rather than a Sten. Was it really that common for Canadians to carry the Thompson rather than a Sten? Or is it just that they where never near the camera man?

*Waits for Dorosh*

[Dave H]

It's a good thing they didn't mail the Thompsons from the US to Canada, or they would still be waiting for them!

With apologies to Axe

[Fluf]

Canuck forces were issued with Thompsons and carried them throughout the Italian campaign. When Commonwealth forces eventually standardized on sten guns - so they could use 9mm ammo - Canadian troops in Italy hated them and would trade, borrow or steal to get Thompsons again. My uncle, a combat engineer, carried a Thompson in his jeep at all times to the end of the war. The sten was a dangerous and unreliable piece of crap, and it was a crime that they were forced on our troops. They were prone to jam in battle, and if you dropped one they tended to fire off their whole magazine while rotating around in a circle on the ground. Canadian troops used Thompsons thoughout the Italian campaign and loved them. Canuck infantry squads are shown with sten guns as the squad smg in CMAK, but that is a small inaccuracy that has no effect on gameplay.

[Michael Dorosh]

Canadians used Thompsons from early in the war; the first use of the Sten was at Dieppe. They were issued brand new for operation Rutter, filed down (they were roughly stamped) and put into working order, then withdrawn when Rutter was cancelled.

When Rutter was remounted as Jubilee, brand new Stens were once again issued - the day before the damn Raid! Many unhappy section commanders.

As noted, the .45 Thompson was used exclusively in Italy, and the Sten replaced it after Operation Goldflake in Feb 1945 (the repatriation of I Canadian Corps to 1st Canadian Army).

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Fluf:

The sten was a dangerous and unreliable piece of crap, and it was a crime that they were forced on our troops. They were prone to jam in battle, and if you dropped one they tended to fire off their whole magazine while rotating around in a circle on the ground.

Most troops felt that way, but it was not universal. Floyd Rourke - one of only four Calgary Highlanders to win the Distinguished Conduct Medal - swore by the Sten and professed to love it. To each his own. They were really only meant to be used at extreme close quarters, and in that role, if treated with care they were ok. A section commander usually had more to do in action than fire his Sten anyway, and ditto the platoon commanders. As indicated, they were unreliable and a lot of guys did shoot themselves with their own Stens - a hard knock on the butt would set it off.

Of course, there WAS a safety feature whereby the cocking handle could be pulled up and locked. Whether the Sten was still unsafe when this was in use is not clear to me. User error may be responsible for part of the Sten's poor reputation.

Nonetheless, if they could be bartered or thrown away in favour of something better (M1 carbine, Thompson, MP40) most had no heartache in letting it go.

[Elmar Bijlsma]

I've seen a fair number of pictures with Canadians with M1 carbines. How on earth did they manage to get hold of those? Trading with the Yanks or did they get issued some?

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Elmar Bijlsma:

I've seen a fair number of pictures with Canadians with M1 carbines. How on earth did they manage to get hold of those? Trading with the Yanks or did they get issued some?

Platoon commander Farley Mowat was one of them; he traded for an M1 carbine the same day he landed in Sicily IIRC. The Yanks didn't get a liquor ration, while Canadian officers did.

Hmmm...

In Korea, the situation was even worse (or better) - some Canadian battalions had up to 50 percent of their small arms replaced with US weapons. Somehow they found the ammo to go with it.

[Kitty]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Elmar Bijlsma:

I've seen a fair number of pictures with Canadians with M1 carbines. How on earth did they manage to get hold of those? Trading with the Yanks or did they get issued some?

Platoon commander Farley Mowat was one of them; he traded for an M1 carbine the same day he landed in Sicily IIRC. The Yanks didn't get a liquor ration, while Canadian officers did.

</font>

[Michael Dorosh]

Mowat was armed with a .38 revolver!

Before the trade.

It was a status symbol,mostly. The CO of the Royal Canadian Regiment came over to borrow the carbine, as I remember, and took a while to give it back. Soldiers like trinkets and souvenirs and 'neat stuff' as much as, or more than, the next guy.

I have a Garand which I like a lot but have never fired the carbine. They are illegal here now unless the barrel is extended and the magazine pinned to 5 rounds.

The M2 carbine could fire full automatic, which made it a bit more popular I should imagine. I take it yours are semi-auto.

[ December 16, 2003, 08:34 PM: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ]

[Michael Dorosh]

As for the Army's official view of the Sten, here is an excerpt from Report no. 141, Historical Section, Canadian Military Headquarters 18 Jul 1945 SITUATION OF THE CANADIAN MILITARY FORCES OVERSEAS (Progress in Equipment (January - December 1944))

13. Machine Carbines. Two principal types of machine carbines were in use in the Canadian forces throughout the year. In the Allied Armies in Italy the Thompson machine carbine continued in use. Supples, from British sources, were adequate to meet the requirements of the field units and to train and equip reinforcements in the United Kingdom proceeding to Italy. This weapon proved quite satisfactory in action.

I'll bet!

14. In North-West Europe the Sten Machine Carbine was the standard issue to the Canadian Army. Supplies were adequate, and in May an additional pool of 12 Stens over and above establishment was allowed to each infantry battalion for the use of platoon commanders as desired.

15. Soon after the Canadian forces went into action in Normandy complaints began to be received concerning the performance of the Sten.

These came from 3 Cdn Inf Div and may be summarized as follows:

a. Troops have lost confidence in the weapon;

b. Jamming of the mechanism by slight dust or sand;

c. Action not reliable; no certainty whether it will fire automatic or repetition or at all;

d. Failure of magazine spring;

e. Not safe unless cocked; if cocked dirt gets in the chamber through the ejection slot;

f. Magazine too wide for the rounds;

g. Lips of the magazine easily bent;

h. Firing pin not long enough and easily worn causing too many misfires;

i. The magazine held by the left hand while firing loosens the clamp causing jamming.

It was recommended that either these faults be corrected or the sten replaced by the Thompson submachine gun. The complaint was investigated by Second British Army, of which 3 Cdn Inf Div formed

a part at the time. They recommended modifications to incorporate

(1)(**) safety catch,

(2)(***)

better magazine,

(3) improvement of the repetition and automatic lever.

It was "considered that good maintenance and cleanliness will eliminate troubles. No other fmn reports bear out 3 Cdn Inf Div report". A detailed comment by D.Q.M.G., C.M.H.Q., on these criticism is attached as Appendix "A" to this report.

However the unfavourable reports continued. Early in August various substitutes were being suggested. It should be noted that the objections were not unanimous (emphasis added); the S Sask R in July reported the Sten gun to be excellent; "we killed more Jerries with Stens that day than with any other weapon"

16. Apart from the replacement of a few of the Stens by the Browning 9-mm automatic pistol

(para. 12 above), no change took place in policy with regard to machine carbines in 21 Army Group.

In Italy issues were made to British forces of the American S.M.G. .45-in M3, though up to the end of November Canadians had not received any.

Canadian reinforcement units in the United Kingdom held some of these for the purpose of training reinforcements destined for Italy

17. Sten production in Canada had ceased by the end of 1944. In the United Kingdom it had

switched over entirely to the new Mk 5. But a new design was also being undertaken on long term

basis.

The Mk 5 incorporates a wooden butt and pistol grip, a foresight similar to that on a rifle, and other improvements; it was designed primarily for airborne forces and was not intended for general issue.

[ December 16, 2003, 08:15 PM: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ]

[Michael Dorosh]

And here is Appendix A, mentioned above.

APPENDIX “A”

13/Sten/1/2 (DQMC)

CANADIAN MILITARY HQ

2 Cockspur Street

London, S.W. 1

DA & QMG

First Cdn Army

10 Aug 44

Machine Carbines

1. With reference to the report on the Sten Machine Carbines on page 11 of Cdn Ops in N.W. Europe Jun 44, Extracts from War Diary and Memoranda (series 2), the following information which has been drawn, without prejudice, from several sources is forwarded for your assistance in assessing the defects and remedial action required.

2. Thompson Sub-Machine Gun.

In considering the recommendation made in the report that the TSMG replace the Sten, the following points should be given full weight:-

a. Policy has been decided that British and Canadian troops of 21 A Gp be armed with the Sten.

b. The TSMG is not in good supply. A small stock is kept in UK for Commandos and if Cdns were to change to TSMG it would be at least two months before they would receive the first shipment.

c. All marks and types of TSMGs in the U.K. cannot be used satisfactorily with the steel case ammunition now being supplied, nor can they all be modified to take this ammunition.

Adoption therefore would result in complaints being received the first time steel case ammunition and unmodified TSMGs were married up in some Cdn formation.

3. Sten Machine Carbines.

In considering the faults described in the extracts, it is pointed out that these complaints have already been forwarded through the normal channels and some have been dealt and the others are being investigated.

4. It is emphasized that the Sten is expected to be a high wastage weapon and production caters to this end. The weapon should be scrapped when it will not function correctly and fewer attempt to rectify faults should be made by Unit Armourer and Workshops. (emphasis added)

5. The following comments are submitted on the complaints listed:

a. that the mechanism jams with only a slight accumulation of dust and sand is not in agreement with the results of the exhaustive sand and mud tests carried out with this weapon before its adoption. Overall magazine covers designed to keep out sand, mud and water are at present under investigation and have so far proved satisfactory, but if accepted and issued will not do away with the regular and proper weapon maintenance that any weapon requires.

b. that the magazine spring acquires set and ecomes weak when the magazine is left loaded for any length of time, was investigated and loaded magazine trials were carried out with magazines returned from Normandy as faulty. The sample magazines complained of were examined by weapon technical experts and tested with the magazine fully loaded for periods of six hours to fourteen days. Tests are continuing for longer periods. Two springs only showed slight signs of set, and even these were within the permitted limits. It was found of firing that all the magazines functioned perfectly. When received from

Normandy the magazines were very dirty, and it is far more likely that the trouble is caused by dirty magazines than by any fault of the spring.

Arrangements should be made to unload magazines and clean them and the ammunition every day.

c. that the Sten will fire automatic or part automatic when set for single shot is well known and was found to be largely due to light loaded ammunition until last year when the heavy load was introduced. With the British heavy load and most Continental 9-mm ammunition, the bolt is driven far enough back to engage and be retained in the recoil position when the change lever is set for single shots. Double taps and runaway guns are seldom found with the latest manufactured ammunition. Another reason for double taps and runaway guns is a worn change lever which jumps when set for a single shot. The remedy for this is the same as for any worn store - scrap it.(emphasis added)

d. that the weapon can be accidently discharged if dropped when the bolt is home is only too

true of some marks of Sten. In earlier production Marks II and III Stens, no safety catch is provided. It is, therefore, possible for the gun to fire by being "bounced off" when the action is forward and the magazine is in position. This can be avoided by placing the cocking handle in the safety slot provided in the weapon. If the cocking handle is left in the safety slot for long periods, the return spring will be kept compressed and may lose some of its resilience. To avoid this, the cocking handle should not be kept in this position longer than is absolutely necessary. In the Mk V Sten the cocking handle is re-designed so that it will project through the body casing of the weapon thus rendering "bounce off" impossible as the branch block is kept stationary in the forward position. Steps have also been taken for the provision of this new cocking handle for Mk II and Mk III Carbines,

which can be easily modified in Ordnance Workshops. Mk II and III weapons thus modified cannot be "bounced off". To carry out this modification in 21 Army Gp, 50,000 cocking handles were flown over to France and further shipments are being made according to the demands from Workshops. 174,000 cocking handles are presently in stock in the UK and France awaiting these demands and 30,000 are coming off

production weekly. An E.M.E.R. on this modification has been published by 21 Army Gp

and will be published for action in the UK in one month.

e. that the magazine is too wide for the rounds and consequently causes jamming is incorrect.

Apparently someone has noticed the magazine is wider than the base of the round and so

jumped to conclusions. The magazine is the same type as the German 9-mm Schemisser and it was designed as a double column magazine and is, therefore, no more too wide for its ammunition than the No. 4 rifle magazine for the .303, as this rifle magazine is also a double column magazine. To double column the rounds give us the means by which a large number of rounds can be got in a short magazine. Except for small handbag models most automatic weapons have double column magazines.

f. incorrect loading is the reason for the complaint that the lips of the magazines bend and

cause jamming of the rounds in the chamber. This is particularly cautioned against in S.A.T. Vol. 1 Pamphlet No. 21 page 12, which reads in part:-

"Insert a round, base first, under the lips of the magazine (NEVER try to force a round downwards between the lips, or it may be damaged)."

Early pattern magazines had only one thickness of metal at the lip while the latest patterns

have two thicknesses and are very robust. The remedy for this fault is to scrap the faulty

magazine and not to attempt to repair it.

g. the complaint that the firing pin is too short and causes misfires, also that it wears out

quickly has never been heard before by D of A (SA), though all complaints, questions of

design, etc., pass through that Directorate. It is suggested that the trouble is due to dirty

bolt heads, the remedy for which is cleaning of the weapons.

h. the first sentence in this complaint to the effect that the magazine is held by the left hand is a misstatement, as the weapon should NEVER be held by the magazine. Not only will the

pressure on the magazine catch release the magazine from its housing as stated in the

complaint, but the magazine will be pulled out of alignment and faulty feed will result. The

pamphlet on the Sten Carbine reads in part:-

"Grasp the barrel nut with the left hand well clear of the ejection opening and the

wrist under the magazine." (S.A.T Vol 1 Pamphlet No. 21 page 14).

If this method of holding was used, complaints such as (H) would not be made.

6. It will be seen from the above that where there is substance to the complaint, steps have

already been taken to overcome the fault or there is a remedy through:-

a. Correct handling by the user.

b. Daily maintenance and cleaning.

c. Scrapping of the weapon or parts as soon as a fault appears.

(emphasis added)

(sgd) J.H. MacQueen, Brig

for (F.J. Montague)

Major-General

In Charge of Administration

CANADIAN MILITARY HEADQUARTERS

So the Army, at least, felt that many of the "faults" of the Sten were the result of improper weapons handling, lack of maintenance, and lack of proper instruction in how to use and maintain the Sten, as well as admitted design flaws.

But most importantly, and interestingly, the weapon was dubbed as a "throwaway" weapon, unlike other smallarms such as the Thompson.

I see no evidence of a "crime" here - just more evidence of an unprepared Canada being forced to go to war without the right tools for the job; tools which take years if not decades in peacetime to develop - if they get the funding.

By the time the Sten's defects were made known, it would have taken 2 months to re-equip with Thompsons - and the attendant problem of ammunition. This report was made in Aug 1944, with the Battle of Normandy nearing an end, and the belief that the German Army might not be able to last past Christmas 1944.

Sometimes, you go with what you've got.

[ December 16, 2003, 08:39 PM: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ]

[Kitty]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

Mowat was armed with a .38 revolver!

Before the trade.

It was a status symbol,mostly. The CO of the Royal Canadian Regiment came over to borrow the carbine, as I remember, and took a while to give it back. Soldiers like trinkets and souvenirs and 'neat stuff' as much as, or more than, the next guy.

I have a Garand which I like a lot but have never fired the carbine. They are illegal here now unless the barrel is extended and the magazine pinned to 5 rounds.

The M2 carbine could fire full automatic, which made it a bit more popular I should imagine. I take it yours was semi-auto.

LOL Ok, a .38 revoler isn't much . . . CLOSE though.

We have a lot not in common; I've never fired a Garand but having fired a bolt action .30-06 rifle that I owned (Rebored from a Mauser barrel), as I'm sure you know, the power of a .30-06 round can in no way be compared to the pistol caliber of the .30 M1 Carbine.

You're right. My Korean era weapon was an M1 Carbine, not an M2, but given the unreliabilty of the M1 that I've experienced over three makes of weapons, I'd rather not have to entrust my life to it.

Yours,

Kitty

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Kitty:

My Korean era weapon was an M1 Carbine, not an M2, but given the unreliabilty of the M1 that I've experienced over three makes of weapons, I'd rather not have to entrust my life to it.

Yours,

Kitty

But it's always the cool looking guns that get the mystique that are crap to shoot.

My dad has a Luger, and though I only fired it once or twice as a kid, he had enough frustrations with it through jamming, etc. to not be impressed. German combat veterans reported the same thing, and hence the intended replacement of the Luger with the Walther. And yet the Luger was widly sought as a souvenir, and is still popular today.

Gotta admit, though, the M-1 Carbine is easier to carry around than a Garand.

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

But it's always the cool looking guns that get the mystique that are crap to shoot.

Anybody sees a parallel to good looking women here?

[Guest Mike]

I read somewhere the Sten cost UKL3 to produce.

I also read in a biography of Skorzeny that he took a silenced model, dropped it in the mud and fired it behind the backs of some visiting staff oficers - they refused to believe he had fired it until he showed them the cartridges on the ground and they felt the hot barrel.

He was demonstrating the superiority of the rugged Sten over the closely machined but capricious MP's made in Germany!!

Mind you the book was ancient even when I read it 20 years ago and may have had a lot of shortly-post-war-mythology written into it.......

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

Gotta admit, though, the M-1 Carbine is easier to carry around than a Garand.

I'll say. I was given one (the carbine) to tote around during a party in my college days and though I am slight of build (or at least was way back then), had no problems at all.

Michael

[Kitty]

Originally posted by Michael Emrys:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

Gotta admit, though, the M-1 Carbine is easier to carry around than a Garand.

I'll say. I was given one (the carbine) to tote around during a party in my college days and though I am slight of build (or at least was way back then), had no problems at all.

Michael </font>

[Siege]

I'll definitely agree that the M-1 Carbine has a near useless cartridge with it, and here in the US it's illegal to hunt with in most states simply because the cartridge is viewed as too weak for that use.

But, I have a number of friends who own Carbines, and all of them have nothing but high praise for them. I've also read a lot of accounts (unfortunately my books are all in storage now, and I can't access them) that it was considered an extremeely well engineered and manufactured weapon which was highly prized by the Germans. Considering the other designs of the period coming from Winchester, who designed the M-1 carbine, those sentiments would fit in very well with other contemporary Winchester guns.

What do the grog references say about the M-1 Carbine?

-Hans

[Kitty]

Originally posted by Siege:

I'll definitely agree that the M-1 Carbine has a near useless cartridge with it, and here in the US it's illegal to hunt with in most states simply because the cartridge is viewed as too weak for that use.

But, I have a number of friends who own Carbines, and all of them have nothing but high praise for them. I've also read a lot of accounts (unfortunately my books are all in storage now, and I can't access them) that it was considered an extremeely well engineered and manufactured weapon which was highly prized by the Germans. Considering the other designs of the period coming from Winchester, who designed the M-1 carbine, those sentiments would fit in very well with other contemporary Winchester guns.

What do the grog references say about the M-1 Carbine?

-Hans

Hey, I won't argue it's great fun to shoot, albeit when it chooses to fire, because it is. But as somone who has experienced a "real life or death situation twice..." i'd rather have had a weapon I could count on.

The carbine would definately NOT be even among my top ten.

Kitty

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Kitty:

...as somone who has experienced a "real life or death situation twice..."

You dated Schwarzenegger???

Michael

[Elmar Bijlsma]

I have only limited experience with fire arms so feel free to ignore/dismiss but... these stories about weak rounds sound a bit dubious to me. At typical combat ranges ranging between 100-150 metres a carbine round is still going to ruin anyones day. Bone fragmentation and such may be less but I'm thinking it should still be enough to put that person out of action. I would prefer the carbine over a bolt action in most combats.

[Ant]

At typical combat ranges ranging between 100-150 metres

That sounds very close. Maybe in a urban situation perhaps, but I thought that typical combat ranges were closer to about 500 metres.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Ant:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> At typical combat ranges ranging between 100-150 metres

That sounds very close. Maybe in a urban situation perhaps, but I thought that typical combat ranges were closer to about 500 metres. </font>

[CRSutton]

My understanding is that the M1 carbine was more popular in the Pacific theater where the garand-although an excellent weapon was considered too long and unwieldy for combat in restricted jungle terrain. Grunts liked the M1 due to its lightness and short barrel for jungle combat where range of engagement was generally much shorter so the range and hitting power of the garand was not as necessary as the abiltiy to swing a weapon and get off rapid shots. IIRC, there was a general shortage of M1 in the Pacific with the bulk of the weapons shiped to Europe. I am doing this all from memory.

[Fluf]

Wow! Thank you Mr.Dorosh for the in depth review of the Sten situation. I stand enlightened on the subject now, having previously based my opinions on anecdotal stories I had read. I'd also never heard before that they were using steel casings on Thompson .45 rounds. Sounds expensive!

The closest I've gotten to an M1 .30-30 carbine was at an army cadet shooting match. While we were using the FN C1 7.62mm (Win.308) in the match, one of our cadet officers brought along his M1 carbine and fired off a few magazines. This was back in the 60s, so the 15 round mag was still legal. His grouping at 100 yards from a prone position wouldn't fit in the rim of a bushel basket. The rounds looked like pistol ammo to me. He was a much better shot with the FNC1. He was quite disappointed with his carbine - but as noted by others, it was designed for jungle combat, not Bisley matches.