Female German snipers??

[JonS]

Originally posted by The Hapless General:

Well, while we're on the topic of women fighting in WWII, I was telling a friend of mine who lives in Australia about the interesting decsription of the Maori batallion's battles. He then told me that while travelling to NZ, he heard stories of the heroism of Maori women in WWII battles. I conducted a brief search of this but could find no mention of Maori women fighting for NZ in the war. Does anyone know if this is true?

Check it out for yourself: 28 (Maori) Battalion

[REVS]

Philippe asked

Out of curiosity, does Tanner have a footnote on this evidence found by modern archeologists for amazons? I would be very curious to see what it was. Evidence supporting pet myths and theories is often larded with a liberal dose of wishful thinking.

Good question, but unfortunately as this is just a throw-away paragraph it's not footnoted. It doesn't purport to be a serious academic study (eg, the lack of footnoting) but instead it's one popular military historian's (very enjoyably readable) overview of a very wide topic - the military history of Afghanistan from the year Dot until now. But I appreciate your scepticism. Of course if you do a Google search on Amazons and Archaeology there is some work being done in the area of Central Asian burial sites, where women buried with horses and weapons, etc have been found.

[Dandelion]

Joachim,

You are right. The comment of "Schörner" - women were not allowed bla bla - is not the result of extensive research, it is instead a fairly common revisionist statement.

The German armed forces of WWII made extensive use of women in a combat role. The vast majority of these girls were forced into service.

Female military personnell entered service in the so called Arbeitsdienst (RAD) or in the Helferinnenkorps of the armed forces and SS. Women from both of these forces were pressed into combat duty as the war progressed closer to German soil, with the so called "Reichsverteidigungsgesetz". By the same law, children were used for combat service.

Several tens of thousand of these women manned armed installations defending the Reich (primarily but not exclusively antiaircraft such), including mobile units, and about five hundred died as KIA. Several thousands "fought at the front", primarily in the east and in Berlin proper, but both British forces advancing on Hamburg and US forces advancing into Bayern encountered organised female combat units. There are no reliable statistics from this period of the war, total female casualty rates from ground unit combat are according to the trial documentation unknown.

The (ab)use of female service personnel for combat duty met with very strong popular emotional rejection and left a permanent mark in the reconstruction of the German state. Thus in the foundation of said state, i.e our constitution, it was and is written on the topic of female citizens that [Art. 12a, Absatz 4 Satz 2]" Sie dürfen auf keinen Fall Dienst mit der Waffe leisten." (they are under no circumstances to do armed service). This little line was written precisely because of the Wehrmacht mass use of female soldiers.

Thus in the Bundeswehr, there was intitially not a single armed woman.

In 1975, the Bundeswehr allowed the arming of female personnell for self defence - i.e. medics, signallers, drives etc were given pistols and Uzi's. The result was a tremendous outcry and a heated public debate, but the Bundeswehr insisted. So they still carry guns.

It was the subject of heated debate again in 2000, when female army personnell complained it had a discriminating effect on their careers that they could not take many of the (armed) courses necessary for advancement, and the law was tried in Strasbourg. It was found that the law may remain as is, but must be understood as concerning compulsory service only. Volounteers are allowed in today, and women again serve in combat units.

There were no ethics in the wartime government and administration, morals had completely collapsed. There were no moral concerns about drafting women and children, no debate whatsoever. The Wehrmacht was a fully integrated part of the contemporary state. Acts of defiance (such as the many people, soldiers and civilians, helping girl-soldiers to desert) were individual acts. The Wehrmacht as such - the OKW, the generals - filed no protest or concern at all. They drafted, trained and armed the girls, and then sent them to combat.

Most of the above requires no advanced research at all, as all of it is supposed to be taught in German public schools, topic constitution. For the interested, all affiliated documents are available for study and very easily accessible, you'll find all of it at a decent university library (at least with a faculty of Law). There are numerous publications commenting the constitution and all must mention the topic of female combat troops in WWII (in order to explain that line).

As to female German snipers outside Germany, I have no sources mentioning any, but like you have already pointed out, there were approximately 2 000 000 armed females doing service in the Wehrmacht abroad in non-combat units, who were all liable to end up in combat at any time.

Cheerio

Dandelion

[Philippe]

On Alexander's alleged dalliance with Thalestris, queen of the Amazons, the following passage in Plutarch says it all:

"Here the queen of the Amazons came to see him, as most writers say, among whom are Cleitarchus, Polycleitus, Onesicritus, Antigenes, and Ister; but Aristobulus, Chares the royal usher, Ptolemy [the general who became king of Egypt after stealing Alexander's body], Anticleides, Philo the Theban, and Philip of Theangela, besides Hecataeus of Eretria, Philip the Chalcidian, and Duris of Samos, say that this is a fiction. And it would seem that Alexander's testimony is in favour of their statement. For in a letter to Antipater [Alexander's regent in Macedon] which gives which gives all the details minutely he says that the Scythian king offered him his daughter in marriage, but he makes no mention of the Amazon. And the story is told that many years afterwards Onesicritus was reading aloud to Lysimachus, who was now king, the fourth book of his history, in which was the tale of the Amazon, at which Lysimachus smiled gently and said: "And where was I at the time?" However, our belief or disbelief of this story will neither increase nor diminish our admiration for Alexander."

Plutarch, Alexander, xlvi, (Perrin trans.)

Note the unusual attempt at a reference to a primary source. Lysimachus and Ptolemy were both in Alexander's army and would have noticed their commander becoming otherwise occupied for the 13 days mentioned by Plutarch's first set of authors.

There are indeed some early burials of women near Kazakhstan. It has been ungallantly suggested that some were bow-legged, several were buried with weapons, and one even had a bent arrowhead stuck in her bones. That doesn't make them Amazons. Having said that, disbelief in Amazons (as opposed to Thalestris' visit) is a modern concept.

Now that that's taken care of, let's get back to more serious matters. My money's on Rachel Weisz.

[ April 21, 2004, 12:35 AM: Message edited by: Philippe ]

[gunnergoz]

There were French female partisans fighting on the Allied side, so the idea of Vichy "partisan" female snipers makes sense. I've always had the impression that Gallic women were ready to bear arms as well and as quickly as they bare most everything else.

[Sanok]

Originally posted by REVS:

it was reported to have taken 13 days, a length of time that probably indicates his difficulty with the process more than his enthusiasm."

Or maybe it just wasn't the right time of the month.... :-O

[Kitty]

Yes, there were female German snipers . . . I was there. I don't like to talk about it so please don't ask for more info.

*haunting trumpets from "Patton" when he has his reincarnation episodes sound*

It came to me in a dream . . .

Kitty

[Kitty]

Originally posted by Sanok:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by REVS:

it was reported to have taken 13 days, a length of time that probably indicates his difficulty with the process more than his enthusiasm."

Or maybe it just wasn't the right time of the month.... :-O </font>

[Joachim]

Originally posted by Dandelion:

Joachim,

You are right. The comment of "Schörner" - women were not allowed bla bla - is not the result of extensive research, it is instead a fairly common revisionist statement.

There were no ethics in the wartime government and administration, morals had completely collapsed. There were no moral concerns about drafting women and children, no debate whatsoever. The Wehrmacht was a fully integrated part of the contemporary state. Acts of defiance (such as the many people, soldiers and civilians, helping girl-soldiers to desert) were individual acts. The Wehrmacht as such - the OKW, the generals - filed no protest or concern at all. They drafted, trained and armed the girls, and then sent them to combat.

Cheerio

Dandelion

Thanks. But on the last part of the quote - would you file a protest where the only question is whether the paper is faster in the round-file or you in front of the firing squad? Ethics and morale always depend on fear and career opportunities.

Gruß

Joachim

[Mark Gallear]

Gosh, I have been asking for Russian (female)snipers for years!

[dieseltaylor]

That link to the Maori battalion is brilliant - sample:

"The departure from Medenine was to be carried out with all deceptive measures—fernleaf and other typical New Zealand signs on vehicles obliterated; titles and badges removed from uniforms; at every halt vehicles were to be turned facing the way from which they had come so that the setting sun would not reflect from their windscreens."

Slightly irritating is despite the book being in electronic format nobody managed to pick up place names spelt entirely in lower case!

Amazons

A possible source for the story of Amazons might be based on one of the peoples of China who, still, run a completely matriarchal society. Menfolk live away and are invited down at night for nookie and have to leave in the morning.

I know you guys are saying gosh this sounds like hell : )

An older women is the leader and effectively they are very extended family groups with all the women together. The history for this goes back thousands of years - I cannot recall much else. It was all from a documentary series on the peoples of China on the Chinese international channel available free to view in Europe ... and probably the rest of the world : )

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Kitty:

It came to me in a dream . . .

Doesn't everything?

:confused:

Michael

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by dieseltaylor:

A possible source for the story of Amazons might be based on one of the peoples of China who, still, run a completely matriarchal society. Menfolk live away and are invited down at night for nookie and have to leave in the morning.

I know you guys are saying gosh this sounds like hell : )

An older women is the leader and effectively they are very extended family groups with all the women together. The history for this goes back thousands of years - I cannot recall much else. It was all from a documentary series on the peoples of China on the Chinese international channel available free to view in Europe ... and probably the rest of the world : )

This is not too surprising. When I was studying anthropology way, way back in the days long before personal computers, we were told about a tribe of people still living in India. According to the story, a woman there would live in her brother's household and her husband would have to sneak in at night to get some. I don't recall that this particular society was matriarchal, though it may have been matrilineal. ISTR it was polyandrous.

But in any case, there have been matriarchal societies scattered here and there all around the globe as far back as we can confirm. Some anthropologists consider that the first sedentary agricultural civilization on the Anatolian Plateau may have been matriarchal.

Michael

[dieseltaylor]

From the Maori sit this fair choked me up [slightly off topic but it does relate to prev. post]

Besides the decorations awarded to the rank and file Colonel Bennett received the DSO, Captain Awatere an MC, and Lieutenant Ngarimu a posthumous VC, the first Maori to be so honoured. The citation upon which the Victoria Cross was awarded to Second-Lieutenant Te Moana-Nui-a-Kiwa Ngarimu read:

During the action at the TEBAGA GAP on 26 March 1943, 2/Lieut Ngarimu commanded a platoon in an attack upon the vital hill feature, Point 209. He was given the task of attacking and capturing an underfeature forward of Point 209 itself and held in considerable strength by the enemy. He led his men with great dash and determination straight up the face of the hill undeterred by the intense mortar and MG fire which was causing considerable casualties. Displaying courage and leadership of the highest order he was himself first on the hill crest, personally annihilating in the process at least two enemy MG posts. In the face of such a determined attack the remainder of the enemy fled, but further advance was impossible as the reverse slope was swept by MG fire from Point 209 itself.

Under cover of a most intense mortar barrage the enemy counter-attacked in an attempt to regain their dug-in positions. 2/Lieut Ngarimu ordered his men to stand up and engage the enemy man for man. This they did with such good effect that the attackers were literally mown down, 2/Lieut Ngarimu personally killing several. During this encounter he was twice wounded, once by rifle fire in the shoulder and later by shrapnel in the leg and though urged by both his Coy Comd and Bn Comd to go out he refused to do so saying he should stay a little while with his men. He stayed till he met his death the following morning.

Darkness found this officer and his depleted platoon lying on the rocky face of the forward slope of the hill feature with the enemy in a similar position on the reverse slope about twenty yards distant. Time and again throughout the night the enemy launched fierce attacks in an attempt to dislodge 2/Lieut Ngarimu and his men, but each counter-attack was beaten off entirely by 2/Lieut Ngarimu's inspired leadership.

– 279 –

During one of these counter-attacks the enemy, by using hand grenades, succeeded in piercing a certain part of the line. Without hesitation 2/Lieut Ngarimu rushed to the threatened area and those of the enemy he did not kill he drove back with stones and with his tommy gun. During another determined counter-attack by the enemy, part of his line broke. Yelling out orders and encouragement, he went to his dislodged men, rallied them and led them in a fierce onslaught back into their old positions.

All through the night, between attacks, he and his men were heavily harassed by MG and mortar fire, but 2/Lieut Ngarimu watched his line very carefully, cheering his men on and inspiring them by his gallant personal conduct. Morning found him still in possession of the hill feature but only he and two unwounded other ranks remained. Reinforcements were sent up to him.

In the morning the enemy again counter-attacked and it was during this attack that 2/Lieut Ngarimu was killed. He was killed on his feet, defiantly facing the enemy with his tommy gun at his hip; and as he fell he came to rest almost on top of those of the enemy who had fallen to his gun just before he fell to theirs.

The hill feature that 2/Lieut Ngarimu had so gallantly defended was strewn with enemy dead and was a bold witness of the great courage and fortitude with which 2/Lieut Ngarimu had fought and died.

There is ample confirmation in captured enemy documents that the citation is, if anything, an understatement. A report by II/433 Regiment of the fighting at Point 209 on 26–27 March reads:

By the night 26/27 Mar. the regrouping of the battalion on Pt. 209 was at the following stage; Bn HQ and 8 Coy on Pt 209, 6 and 7 Coys on the high features in front of 209, 5 Coy in reserve behind 209. [The report goes on to describe the preliminary bombardment, the infantry attack, and the destroying of four tanks, three by anti-tank-gun fire and one by a sticky bomb.]

In the meantime the situation on 7 Coy's front had become serious—enemy infantry had succeeded in occupying a spur running out from 7 Coy's feature. 6 Coy's reserve platoon, under S/Sergt Schmidt was sent up to 7 Coy, both as a counter-attack force and to make up for the heavy casualties

– 280 –

the company had suffered in the barrage. In a fluctuating hand to hand struggle (which even developed into a fight with stones after most of the weapons had been knocked out) 3 Pl 6 Coy and Schlinder Pl of 7 Coy took and lost the ridge several times. S/Sgt Schmidt and Sgt Schlinder distinguished themselves by particular initiative.

Early on the morning of 27 Mar 7 Coy received a further reinforcement—a platoon of 5 Coy under Lieut Noack, which was sent up with orders to clear the enemy finally off the ridge forward of 7 Coy. The platoon suffered heavy casualties but did not achieve its object. Only half the troops engaged in the counter-attacks came back. Lieut Behrens, Lieut Noack, S/Sgt Schmidt and Sgt Schlinder—that is to say, all the platoon commanders—were either killed or wounded.

(signed) Drechsler, Lieut.

[Dandelion]

Thanks. But on the last part of the quote - would you file a protest where the only question is whether the paper is faster in the round-file or you in front of the firing squad? Ethics and morale always depend on fear and career opportunities.

Gruß

Joachim [/QB]

Yes quite, this is apparent. Morals are subject to windows of opportunity, always.

I don't know what I would have done. I say what I guess everyone says - I hope I would have had the strength to do what I felt was right, or at the very least not do what I felt was wrong. But I'm not entirely convinced I would have. Fear is powerful, twists your mind.

The note on the Wehrmacht as integral part of the state was adressed to our local Forum revisionist rather than you of course.

Well, I guess my entire post was really, as I believe you already knew everything I wrote. I just needed a nice and civilised person to adress since I didn't want to be engaged in a conversation with that other person.

Yes I know its a waste of time correcting him. Nazi's never listen. This is just therapy. Makes me feel I'm doing my bit for the postwar dream.

Servus

Dandelion

[Firefly]

The have been a series of documentaries on British TV by Terry Jones (of Monty Python) fame, debunking some of the myths about medieval society, one of which was the view of medieval women being meek, defenceless creatures (which was basically invented by the Victorians), one example he quoted was a woman in her seventies, who successfully commanded the defence of her castle against a siege on behalf of the King in one of the civil wars/rebellions in England.