RISK + Combat Mission

[murpes]

I recently purchased my first copy of Risk and have really been enjoying playing it with my wife - who somehow manages to beat me more often than not. But the one thing that doesn't sit well with me is how combat is resolved by dice; it's a little too random. Of course, it makes sense in the context of a board game, and even the title recognizes it.

I began thinking about more stratic ways to resolve Risk battles, and I thought that Combat Mission games would be an interesting way to do it. Sure, CM battles don't exacly model Risk battles, but it's sure better than dice. I quickly realzied that a Risk game would take FOREVER doing this, but I began to wonder if there was a way to make this doable.

I think it could be done if you run it like a CM tournament, with the battles resolved by IP and pbem games. You could have one Gamemaster who basically runs the tournament, keeps the game board, and updates the web page. Two Commanders, one per side, who are pretty adept at Risk strategy. And at least 5 generals per side I guess. The Commander would determine what Risk nations to invade and what generals get assigned to what battles (with the stipulation that everyone gets games). You'd have to come up with some formula like 1 token = 300 Combat Mission points or something, and general rules about which CM game to use.

Maybe a dozen players could do this - really non-commanders could drop out and add new players, as long as you didn't switch sides.

I think you'd have to speed up the Risk game as well - I don't know if there are "fast rules" Risk or not. I guess the Secret Missions speed up a game, but since I have a 1959 reproduction I don't really know what they are. Additionally, I think the commander would have to specify all his attacks and commit to them each turn - no "re-attacking."

Has anyone tried anything like this? Not necessairly Risk but using CM to fight a larger, different game? Does something like this sound plausible, and moreover would it be fun?

[TBlaster]

My friend and myself are using Aide de Camp 2 to create a strategic layer to the game.

We're currently playing a game where a German Panzer division is attacking an American Panzer Division in '43.

We created icons at company and platoon levels (My division has 35 icons total), and made our own rules on movement/weather/artillery range, maximum engagement size, supply rules etc.

Let me tell you, it's a whole different game when you are concerned about your units to make it passed 1 battle.

[Elmar Bijlsma]

I myself have single player CMAK and CMBB campaigns running using the Allied General engine. Great fun. But Risk is definitly something I should look into. Less complicated and more scope for combined arms wich is both a shortcoming and main attraction of my AG campaigns.

[Noiseman]

Well I'm glad I'm not the only madman who's tried to combine games for a campaign! I've used the Eastfront/Westfront boardgames from Columbia games. The step loss system in the 'front' games works surprisingly well with CM.

I've also got a copy of Aide de Camp, one of these days I'm going to have to get over the learning curve and utilize it, it could be a great resource.

[Kevin Kinscherf]

The idea of using a tactical game engine to resolve higher operational combat has been talked about over the years. I wonder if my old General magazines have any articles? You may want to search the archives for some threads. People have invented their own rules and "boards" or used commercial products to provide the higher level boards. It takes imagination to translate the tactical combat into operational and stategical outcomes. For gamers who like to tinker with rules etc. it is natural. So, it is not crazy at all. Although this is the first time I heard of using Risk. But if it brings you and wife together "what the heck". I remember working on combining the games Panzer Blitz and Panzer Group Gudarian. If I recall the simple rules called for a small Panzer Blitz battle when the combat odds where 1 to 1. But that was many beers ago ...

There are also groups of guys doing something along these lines for CMBB:

http://www.combat-campaigns.com/cmbb/

Kevin

Boots and Tracks

[jamesroe16]

don't feel bad. I am currently working on making my own campaigne. I first choose the region of Italy, then wrote down the numbers 1 through 10 in six seperate columns. The first colums is for the map type 1 large town, 2 farmland, 3 farmland, 4 rural, 5 farmland, 6 village, 7 farmland, 8 rural, 9 farmland, and 10 town. I then rolled a ten sided dice to determine what type of 2000m by 2000m map to create in each 7 by 7 grid map consiting of a total of 49 maps. The other columns are for tree coverage, hilliness, water (i like streams and rivers, so have to edit my maps), ground type, and map countour. After making the first map i then roll the dice to see if there is a slight difference in the next map, so that there are no big changes ( ex: i roll a 3 and get farmland the next map i foll a 8 i will go up 1 point and do a rural map which was a 4. )

After creating my maps i will create my units with a font program from http://www.mapsymbs.com/ these will be any where from a platoon size to battalion sizes. My main problem is that i don't have any one to play against on a strategic level and how to do my supply isues. Also how to use an element of surprise of what units the axis has and make it consistant each time. Oh well i will figure that out in time. It just sux having to know each sides movement and strategy.

[Omi]

Isn't Axis and Allies a "WWII Risk"?

[Alfatwosix]

Yes, Axis and Allies is a Risk-type game situated in WW2. Good fun too.

Hmm...Risk and CM...would be up for that. But, if your misses likes Risk, I am not sure she likes CM. Though mine can be found for a slug it out throwing the dice contest that Risk is (specially with good friends and beer, preferably played in a noisy pub where we sing supportive chants for each other ) (no we are not teenagers, we are in our 30's) I am playing CM for years now and can hardly make her have a peek at the screen....

[Joachim]

Originally posted by jamesroe16:

don't feel bad. I am currently working on making my own campaigne. I first choose the region of Italy, then wrote down the numbers 1 through 10 in six seperate columns. The first colums is for the map type 1 large town, 2 farmland, 3 farmland, 4 rural, 5 farmland, 6 village, 7 farmland, 8 rural, 9 farmland, and 10 town. I then rolled a ten sided dice to determine what type of 2000m by 2000m map to create in each 7 by 7 grid map consiting of a total of 49 maps. The other columns are for tree coverage, hilliness, water (i like streams and rivers, so have to edit my maps), ground type, and map countour. After making the first map i then roll the dice to see if there is a slight difference in the next map, so that there are no big changes ( ex: i roll a 3 and get farmland the next map i foll a 8 i will go up 1 point and do a rural map which was a 4. )

After creating my maps i will create my units with a font program from http://www.mapsymbs.com/ these will be any where from a platoon size to battalion sizes. My main problem is that i don't have any one to play against on a strategic level and how to do my supply isues. Also how to use an element of surprise of what units the axis has and make it consistant each time. Oh well i will figure that out in time. It just sux having to know each sides movement and strategy.

There are several rules for campaigns out there that might help you a bit - but they are for CMBB

Biltongs campaign rules aka BCR

and

RobOs quick campaign (ROQC).

In BCR the element of surprise is achieved by using the qb generator to pick the enemy force.

Force composition (armor, CA, mech, inf, random) is rolled, points are given.

Your own force is bought via the editor and/or the qb buy menu.

Maps are either random, self-made or you find some on the net (e.g. in other scens) and use them.

If you want to transfer/enhance BCR to CMAK, all you need to do is supply me with (approximate) data about temperature/weather, map type and who attacked how often. Curently BCR is lots of paper work (especially bookkeeping of units), but RL stops me from finishing an excel tool that eases that. And it is still CMBB only - but transferring the rules is not much work once the data is collected...

BTW: If you have self-made maps for CMAK - make them public... they are always better than random maps.

Gruß

Joachim

[Hawk]

I am about to run a very small (two players and me as GM) campaign myself, using a home made map (with areas), Combat Mission (tactical level) and a reduced version of Cocat II for the strategic bit.

I'll use CMAK to fight some of the tactical battles and a generic, quick-and-dirty system to resolve the rest.

German/Italian forces in defence and US/British forces attacking. Roughly 1 division pr. side (before I start balancing the forces).

3 turns pr. day (2 daylight, one night) with very simple rules for supply, intel, reinforcements and all that, and I'll also use a limited force mix.

[Lord Harmes]

I've always thought a game in the mold of Medievil Total War would be excellent in a WW2 context. Building and developing your forces on a strategic scale, then invading provences and deciding the battles on a tactical level. Amazing...

[murpes]

Originally posted by Alfatwosix:

Yes, Axis and Allies is a Risk-type game situated in WW2. Good fun too.

Hmm...Risk and CM...would be up for that. But, if your misses likes Risk, I am not sure she likes CM. Though mine can be found for a slug it out throwing the dice contest that Risk is (specially with good friends and beer, preferably played in a noisy pub where we sing supportive chants for each other ) (no we are not teenagers, we are in our 30's) I am playing CM for years now and can hardly make her have a peek at the screen....

Nope, she has never shown any interest whatsoever in CM, other than to ocassionally check in on my pbem games with "How's that war game going?" I wasn't really clear in my wording - what I meant to say was that playing Risk with my wife caused be to think about how to reduce the randomness of conflict resolution ... when playing someone else! No way will she ever play CM; believe me, I've tried. She plays tons of PC games, as long as they have swords, dungeons, and orcs. If anyone knows about such a CM mod please let me know!

My interest in the Risk/CM game was partly due to my recent transition from "gainfully employeed" to "full-time student." I *may* have time over the summer to manage a game like this, but I suspect this is more of a year-long game. But I'll be student teaching in the fall, and no way would I take on a project like this.

[jamesroe16]

There are several rules for campaigns out there that might help you a bit - but they are for CMBB

Biltongs campaign rules aka BCR

and

RobOs quick campaign (ROQC).

In BCR the element of surprise is achieved by using the qb generator to pick the enemy force.

Force composition (armor, CA, mech, inf, random) is rolled, points are given.

Your own force is bought via the editor and/or the qb buy menu.

Maps are either random, self-made or you find some on the net (e.g. in other scens) and use them.

If you want to transfer/enhance BCR to CMAK, all you need to do is supply me with (approximate) data about temperature/weather, map type and who attacked how often. Curently BCR is lots of paper work (especially bookkeeping of units), but RL stops me from finishing an excel tool that eases that. And it is still CMBB only - but transferring the rules is not much work once the data is collected...

BTW: If you have self-made maps for CMAK - make them public... they are always better than random maps.

Gruß

Joachim

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Yea i have seen the BCR rules. That is just to much to keep up with. I am trying to keep things more simple. What site do you recommend me to post my maps. Some of the maps are simple, but there are some that will be challenging

[Joachim]

Originally posted by jamesroe16:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yea i have seen the BCR rules. That is just to much to keep up with. I am trying to keep things more simple. What site do you recommend me to post my maps. Some of the maps are simple, but there are some that will be challenging

The Scenario Depot is usually the place to go. You might consider The Proving Grounds if you want feedback. If the simple maps still get the AI to play decently, I'd publish them as map packs.

Gruß

Joachim

[CMplayer]

Originally posted by murpes:

what I meant to say was that playing Risk with my wife caused be to think about how to reduce the randomness of conflict resolution ...

Lots of randomness is involved in the conflict resolution in CM as well. Every time a probability is called into play, you've got an element of randomness, that is to say, about 1000 times/turn.

Risk just take the billions of probabilites in an army-sized conflict lasting weeks or months, and condenses them into a single die roll. But if you take an 'effects oriented approach' (as described in the original Squad Leader designer's notes) there's no a priori reason to consider Risk to be less realistic for its scale. In fact, randomness is more realistic in many ways for wargames than chesslike automation.

What you are really asking for is for the randomness to be distributed at a finer level of detail. Why? Because it's fun (IMO). Apart from that, there's nothing especially wrong with quick and dirty combat results table which rely on abstractions.

[ January 22, 2004, 05:41 AM: Message edited by: CMplayer ]

[CMplayer]

Re: joining different scale simulations into campaign games, from another forum:

Rolling Thunder campaign in Seattle

For anyone in the Seattle area, Boyd Schorzman will be running a Rolling Thunder campaign at Metro Seattle Gamers this winter, using Speed of Heat for the tactical dogfights and Downtown for the raid level activities.

Players will be participating as members of 354 Tactical Fighter Squadron- "The Bulldogs", part of the 355 Tactical Fighter Wing, flying F-105 Thunderchief's, based out of Takhli Thailand engaged in operations against North Vietnam circa 1967 during "Rolling Thunder". A few select other players will participate as North Vietnamese players (SAM, Anti-aircraft and MIG's). If sufficient interest is shown and we get enough players, we will expand the game to include a US Navy squadron off of a Yankee Station carrier.

There is also room for some remote players outside of Seattle to participate in an email role, though the tactical battles are being fought live.

Boyd is a great GM and has run many ypes at Metro Seattle Gamers over the years: a recent WWI air campaign, several Age of Sail campaigns using Close Action, an ongoing WWII submarine campaign game, a Battle of Britain campaign with Achtung Spitfire and TSR/SPI's Battle Over Britain. (Hey, Burning Blue wasn't available at the time.)

In general, the way these campaigns are run is that the approach to battles are done online, and the tactical engagements are played out at MSG. Several of the campaigns have had more than 30 participants including many remote on-line players from outside the Seattle area.

If you have any interest in participating or any questions, please contact Boyd directly at banzaibutch@earthlink.net

[Kong]

At Band of Brothers: http://www.hulldown.org/kilroy/ they have been running a Risk type CM Campaign for quite a while now. It is called World Domination International Campaign, here is the link: http://www.users.on.net/rcbodle/

The game started with 7 teams of 4 persons each, it is down to 2 teams now. It was/is alot of fun. Unfortunately I was the first one eliminated from the game. My team was betrayed by our alliance partner (the Canadians of all people!) and then I got caught in an "Artillery Fire Mission" (2000 pts of Arty, see the rules in the link above for more info) on a small map and was literally blown into oblivion. Oddly enough that defeat was one my most enjoyable CM games. It was payback as I had delivered some nasty business to my opponent the prior battle using lots of Minefields and Arty!

This campaign was great fun with some unique rules and some wacky maps. Murpes I think this is very close to what you are looking for!

[Robert Olesen]

Originally posted by jamesroe16:

There are several rules for campaigns out there that might help you a bit - but they are for CMBB

Biltongs campaign rules aka BCR

and

RobOs quick campaign (ROQC).

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yea i have seen the BCR rules. That is just to much to keep up with. I am trying to keep things more simple. What site do you recommend me to post my maps. Some of the maps are simple, but there are some that will be challenging

I'm working on a port of ROQC to CMAK, but it all takes time. It's simpler than BCR, but still somewhat complex. I guess you could mix the core force and favor concept and the battle type generation from ROQC with your own maps.

[76mm]

TBlaster, how do you like Aide-de-Camp II. I was checking it out for the same purpose, but it seems kind of dated and pretty pricey. What are your likes/dislikes?

Thanks,

Tom

[jamesroe16]

I'm working on a port of ROQC to CMAK, but it all takes time. It's simpler than BCR, but still somewhat complex. I guess you could mix the core force and favor concept and the battle type generation from ROQC with your own maps.

I can't wait for your cmak version. I down loaded the cmbb one. It looks good, but i like cmak alot better than cmbb.

[Hawk]

Originally posted by 76mm:

TBlaster, how do you like Aide-de-Camp II. I was checking it out for the same purpose, but it seems kind of dated and pretty pricey. What are your likes/dislikes?

Thanks,

Tom

I have made several game conversions to ADC2 for MMP (The Gamers) and Clash of Arms. It take some time getting used to, but I like ADC2 a lot! You can have umpired games with hidden movement, see your opponent's moves in open games, design your own units (graphics and attributes) and maps (graphics, attributes such as height, LOS restrictions etc) etc etc.

I agree that the cost is a bit high, but it's not much more than your average PC game and if you're into this kind of things, you'll have endless more fun than with most PC games!

And for the record ... no, I don't work for HPS! I just like ADC2.

Here are pictures of some regular hex-based game conversion (ADC2's strong point in my view). NB! The quality of the images are somewhat reduced due to the JPG compression.

Yes, shameless self bragging, I know!

[Voodoochile]

I've always thought a game in the mold of Medievil Total War would be excellent in a WW2 context. Building and developing your forces on a strategic scale, then invading provences and deciding the battles on a tactical level. Amazing...

I totally agree! Played both Shogun and Medieval Total War for a couple of years and I thought I would never get tired of them......until I discovered CM! Used to be eagerly anticipating the release of Rome: Total War, but with CM I don't care any more.

The way the TW series combined the strategic and tactical levels has so far been unsurpassed in my book. It would be great if CM could have the same thing.

[Thermopylae]

Anyone remember the CM x 10 campaign concept? I foregt who designed it, but essenitally what they did was lay out an op map by using a CM scenario where 1 squad represented a platoon, a house represented a village, etc, and the actual distances were 10-50 m 9dependent on scale) to the meter on the map.

[TBlaster]

76MM: As Hawk demonstrated ADC2 works quite well. The problem with all the Operational/Strategic level games is that the AI automatically resolves combat.

I would love to Take Total Operational Art of War as my strategic layer to CM, but it will always calculate combat whenever opposing forces meet.

ADC2 doesn't. You have full control, unfortunately without a GM you can;t do hidden movements.

[jamesroe16]

Hawk, i guess that software costed money correct?