jbertles Posted October 27, 2004 Share Posted October 27, 2004 I'm putting together a Bulge scenario and have been trying to get some info about US towed tank destroyers. I've seen mention of 57mm (re-chambered British 6 pounders) and 3 inch (76.2s). But most books I have read just say "towed tank destroyers" and that's that. I'm just looking for a sense of proportion, like 'lots of 76.2s, but only a few 57s' or something like that. Anybody have any info, websites, etc.? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted October 27, 2004 Share Posted October 27, 2004 Name a specific unit and date and you will doubtless be deluged with more info than you can handle. Keep it vague, or too general, and listen to the wind whistle. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John D Salt Posted October 27, 2004 Share Posted October 27, 2004 Originally posted by jbertles: I'm putting together a Bulge scenario and have been trying to get some info about US towed tank destroyers. I've seen mention of 57mm (re-chambered British 6 pounders) Not re-chambered, they could fire the same ammunition. Re-wheeled, re-muzzled and in some cases with pointless frobs added for traverse, but not re-chambered. Originally posted by jbertles: and 3 inch (76.2s). But most books I have read just say "towed tank destroyers" and that's that. I'm just looking for a sense of proportion, like 'lots of 76.2s, but only a few 57s' or something like that. Anybody have any info, websites, etc.? I've not heard of 57mm guns being used by TD units in 1944, I thought they were only issued to infantry. Mike Reynolds' splendid "The Devil's Adjutant" covers the actions of Kampfgruppe Pieper and its opponents in the north of the "bulge", and the orbat given for 823rd TD bn (attached 30th Inf Div) shows only 3" guns (towed and SP), no 57mm. All the best, John. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alsatian Posted October 27, 2004 Share Posted October 27, 2004 Take it with a "progaganda" grain of salt, but the unit history for the 30th Infantry has a picture of a 90mm AAA being set up for AT duty at a bend in a forest road. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richie Posted October 27, 2004 Share Posted October 27, 2004 Originally posted by John D Salt: Mike Reynolds' splendid "The Devil's Adjutant" covers the actions of Kampfgruppe Pieper and its opponents in the north of the "bulge", and the orbat given for 823rd TD bn (attached 30th Inf Div) shows only 3" guns (towed and SP), no 57mm. All the best, John. Ummm, While I think you'll find the 823rd has no 57mm's the 30th Infantry Division had it's own inherent Anti Tank Co's within it's infantry Battalions. These were equiped with 57mm's. Info given in appendix 3 of said book... Richie Jbertles, can I ask which part of the Bulge battle you are depicting? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conscript Bagger Posted October 27, 2004 Share Posted October 27, 2004 My experience reading American Bulge accounts is that 57mm are referred to as "anti-tank" (in infantry units as John said), while towed 76mm and SP of any type (M10, M18, M36) are called "tank destroyers." Towed 76mm might sometimes be called "guns," but I don't recall ever seeing a 57mm called a TD. John: I didn't know TD battalions ever fought with a mix of towed and SP. Could they have been in the midst of an upgrade? Does your source say how many of each type the 823d was using? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McAuliffe Posted October 27, 2004 Share Posted October 27, 2004 From Narratives by Historical Officer Capt. Franklin Ferriss : To defend Stoumont, Lt. Col. Fitzgerald’s 3rd Battalion (119th. Regt, 30 Inf. Div.) had the support of eight towed TD guns of Company A, 823rd TD Battalion, and two 90mm AA guns (O), from the 143rd AAA Gun Battalion, (W), in addition to the three 57mm anti-tank guns of Battalion Hq. He set up a perimeter defense of Stoumont, with Company I and four of the TD guns manning the main roadblock, covering the road into Stoumont from the east. Company K and the other four TD’s protected the southern side of the town. Company L and the three 57mm anti-tank guns covered the little suburb of Rouat, just north of Stoumont. Above explains more or less the presence of the mix of 57 mm AT Guns, 76 mm towed TD's and 90 mm AA guns at Stoumont. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve McClaire Posted October 27, 2004 Share Posted October 27, 2004 Originally posted by jbertles: [QB] I'm putting together a Bulge scenario and have been trying to get some info about US towed tank destroyers...US Army towed TD units were always equipped with 3" M5 guns. You can find a good TO&E here. Click on the sub-units to see their composition. Cheers, Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John D Salt Posted October 27, 2004 Share Posted October 27, 2004 Originally posted by Impudent Warwick: My experience reading American Bulge accounts is that 57mm are referred to as "anti-tank" (in infantry units as John said), while towed 76mm and SP of any type (M10, M18, M36) are called "tank destroyers." Towed 76mm might sometimes be called "guns," but I don't recall ever seeing a 57mm called a TD.Exactly. Infantry AT guns, as one might expect, belong in infantry units, not TD units. Mr. Picky adds that the towed TD is the 3-inch, a different gun from the 76mm (same calibre, same ammunition, same ballistic performance, but a different gun). Originally posted by Impudent Warwick: John: I didn't know TD battalions ever fought with a mix of towed and SP. Could they have been in the midst of an upgrade? Does your source say how many of each type the 823d was using? Reynolds shows each of 3 TD coys having 1 SP and 2 towed platoons, each of 4 guns. All the best, John. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve McClaire Posted October 27, 2004 Share Posted October 27, 2004 Originally posted by John D Salt: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Impudent Warwick: John: I didn't know TD battalions ever fought with a mix of towed and SP. Could they have been in the midst of an upgrade? Does your source say how many of each type the 823d was using? Reynolds shows each of 3 TD coys having 1 SP and 2 towed platoons, each of 4 guns. [/QB]</font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Yeide Posted October 27, 2004 Share Posted October 27, 2004 Originally posted by John D Salt: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Mr. Picky adds that the towed TD is the 3-inch, a different gun from the 76mm (same calibre, same ammunition, same ballistic performance, but a different gun). Reynolds shows each of 3 TD coys having 1 SP and 2 towed platoons, each of 4 guns. All the best, John. </font>The towed TD battalions only used the 3-inch gun, not the 57mm gun. (I have one towed TD picture on my website--Military History by Harry Yeide--that is incorrectly labeled 76mm, but I have learned the dot-Mac software will send me back to square one if I try to fix it, which just isn't worth the trouble.) Several TD battalions in the Bulge were equipped with towed guns. They included those attached to the infantry divisions that manned the line at the outset: the 801st (99th ID), 820th (106th ID), 630th (28th ID), and 802d (4th ID). I am aware of one battalion that had a mix of M36s and M10s because of an unfinished conversion: the 814th, which was at St. Vith with the 7th Armored Division. The 823d TD Battalion (30th Infantry Division), fought around Stoumont-Stavelot with a mix of M10s and towed guns, again because of an unfinished conversion. Company B was still entirely towed, and Company A had a mix. Cheers, Harry 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Splinty Posted October 28, 2004 Share Posted October 28, 2004 If I remember correctly one of those 90mm AA guns took out a couple of Panthers at Stoumont. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbertles Posted October 30, 2004 Author Share Posted October 30, 2004 Thanks gents - all very useful, and it pretty much answers my question. The scenario is a kind of pygmy-Bastogne. The scenario map is roughly based on the maps I found in "Rendezvous with Destiny - the History of the 101st Airborne" by Leonard Rapport and Arthur Norwood Jr. In addition, contemporary paintings by Tech. Sgt. Olin Dows of the Bulge were useful to get a feeling for the general terrain. Also, I found a couple of aerial photos of Ardennes area towns (including the famous one of heavily cratered Saint Vith after the battle) that helped me get the flavor of a Belgian town in winter - lots and lots of fences, and far more roads (dirt tracks, really) than I had thought. Think of this scenario as a 1/3rd scale Bastogne and surrounding villages. So my map is 2000 x 2000, and shows a central town, with a pseudo-Noville to the NE, pseudo Longchamps to the NW, pseudo-Villeroux to the SW and pseudo-Wardin to the SE. Since I'm not a realism grog, I just wanted to get the flavor of Bastogne without extensive research. The scenario (tentatively titled Bastognette) is currently in vs-AI testing. Once I have fine-tuned it as much as possible vs AI I'll then try to find a PBEM opponent to try it out. It's going to be a big 'un - 60 turns, over 10,000 pts total. Any volunteers? I didn't want to go Operation, so one thing I've had to do is to bump up the German infantry ammo. Anyway, sometime in the next few months it will be posted at the Depot. Once again, thanks for all the help. [ October 29, 2004, 07:50 PM: Message edited by: jbertles ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Breakthrough Posted October 30, 2004 Share Posted October 30, 2004 S. Stanton, 'US Army Order of Battle WW II' is a great source for type and time of attachment of Corps/Army TD assets to Inf and Armd Divs in the ETO. It also has a good breakdown of standard Divisional orgs including AT assets. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richie Posted October 30, 2004 Share Posted October 30, 2004 I'll go a PBEM with you jbertles... I've got a couple of Ardennes Operations waiting to go out through Boots'n'Tracks at the moment. Richie, Boots & Tracks Email is in the Profile... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbertles Posted October 30, 2004 Author Share Posted October 30, 2004 Richie - actually your email is NOT in the profile. But mine is, so pop me an email and once I've finished the vs AI stuff we'll crank it up. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richie Posted October 31, 2004 Share Posted October 31, 2004 Well bugger me, so it isn't! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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