Hans Posted March 26, 2004 Share Posted March 26, 2004 Okay I have a map of the Dutch airfield at Waalhaven that has the following unit marks on it. 49th PEL.LU.MITR Any ideas? I'm thinking AAA but can someone confirm? Also 3 III ZL.AFP.TL and 77 BT.LU.A And the big question anyone have a link to WWII Dutch military map symbols! I've figured out the Jager regiment just those three about are a bit puzzling Thanks Hans 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John D Salt Posted March 26, 2004 Share Posted March 26, 2004 Originally posted by Hans: Okay I have a map of the Dutch airfield at Waalhaven that has the following unit marks on it. 49th PEL.LU.MITR Any ideas? I'm thinking AAA but can someone confirm?I don't speak a word of Dutch, but on the basis that there are no great national barriers to military thought, I would guess that PEL signifies platoon (like the French "peloton"), LU signifies anti-aircraft (Luft is air in German) and MITR signifies machine-gun (like the French "mitrailleuse"). The associated symbol certainly looks as if it might signify AAMGs. Originally posted by Hans: 3 III ZL.AFP.TL and 77 BT.LU.ANo idea about the first one, but I'd guess that the second was a battery (or perhaps battalion) of anti-aircraft artillery. Originally posted by Hans: And the big question anyone have a link to WWII Dutch military map symbols! 'Fraid not, but I expect they bear some family resemblance to the German system. All the best, John. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoffel Posted March 26, 2004 Share Posted March 26, 2004 Hi Hans, You were right about the machinegun. 49th pel LU Mitr,means 49th platoon luchtafweer(airdefense) mitrailleur(machinegun)probably a lewis on a tripod. The other Bt LU.A means batterij luchtafweer artillery or simply light AAA in English. I am not sure what the abbreviations in the other one mean exactly butI think its Heavy AAA like cannons. I have lookead at your map,the circles with the arrows are defensive positions with the arrow pointing to the firesector. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aragorn2002 Posted March 26, 2004 Share Posted March 26, 2004 49th PEL.LU.MITR 49ste Peleton Luchtdoelmitrailleurs (49th Peleton Air target Machine Guns) 3 III ZL.AFP.TL Hmmm, ZL probably means zelfstandig (indepedent), AFD means afdeling (detachment), TL, no sorry, haven't got a clue, probably AA. 77 BT.LU.A 77ste luchtdoelbatterij (77th battery air target) The Dutch AA batteries shot down at least 300 German planes in less than five days, although it must be said that a large part of them were slow Ju-52 transport planes which tried to land on and near the reasonably defended airfields near Den Haag and Rotterdam. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aragorn2002 Posted March 27, 2004 Share Posted March 27, 2004 ZL also could mean Zoeklicht (search light). Not at all sure of that, just a suggestion with regard to the area this unit covers on the map. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hans Posted March 27, 2004 Author Share Posted March 27, 2004 Thanks Yep I believe those are search lights Bedankt voor je hulp 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aragorn2002 Posted March 27, 2004 Share Posted March 27, 2004 Graag gedaan en succes met je scenario. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaws Posted March 27, 2004 Share Posted March 27, 2004 TL means Tegen Luchtdoelen (Against Air targets or AA) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hans Posted March 27, 2004 Author Share Posted March 27, 2004 Thanks Jaws As I have a number of Dutch speakers on this thread.... I'm looking for more material for Dutch scenarios - both in May 1940 and the defense of the Dutch East Indies. If you have any ideas or info please send it on, most willing to do a coopertive scenario and give credit. Wayn100@emirates.net.ae Anyone know a Dutch military Grog out there? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaws Posted March 27, 2004 Share Posted March 27, 2004 Originally posted by Hans: Thanks Jaws As I have a number of Dutch speakers on this thread.... I'm looking for more material for Dutch scenarios - both in May 1940 and the defense of the Dutch East Indies. If you have any ideas or info please send it on, most willing to do a coopertive scenario and give credit. Wayn100@emirates.net.ae Anyone know a Dutch military Grog out there? You’re welcome, I think this is a nice battle. http://www.generalissue.com/history/ypenberg.html 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hans Posted March 27, 2004 Author Share Posted March 27, 2004 ""The German invasion began around 3 a.m. on May 10, but problems started immediately. In the 18th Army sector, commando teams only captured one of a dozen target bridge crossings. It took Xth Corps at the Grebbe Line four days to secure its first day objectives. The three SS regiments put in a less than sterling performance. Protected by inundation on one flank and the Neder-Rijn River on the other, the Crebbeberg strongpoint, held by the 8th Infantry Regiment, withstood successive frontal assaults by the SS for three days. The 1st Cavalry Division's attempt to storm the fortresses guarding the Afsluitdijk crossing over the Isselmeer failed completely with heavy losses, in spite of the support of 88mm anti-aircraft guns."" Very scenarioish, if we can find a map and more descriptive explanation of what happened. The German fight to penetrate the Grebbe line has great potential. I'd say that such material probably exists but only in Dutch. I'm quite sure the Dutch General Staff College has studied these actions to death. The book where the Waalhaven map came from might have some info. Hans 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted March 28, 2004 Share Posted March 28, 2004 My (Canadian) Regiment fought at Walcheren Causeway from 31 October to 2 November 1944. I read recently that when our monument went up in the late 1980s at the Causeway (which is no longer a causeway, as all the surrounding territory has been reclaimed from the sea in typical Dutch fashion) there was also a monument to the Dutch who fought there in 1940. Does anyone have any clue what happened there (the Causeway linking Walcheren Island to South Beveland) in 1940? I have no access to any kind of sources. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aragorn2002 Posted March 28, 2004 Share Posted March 28, 2004 Michael, here is one of the few links (well, actually the only one) I could find. Still in development though by the looks of it and not very enlightening. http://www.hoebeke.com/en/slagveld.php3 Seems to have been a battle between French and German (Waffen SS?) troops. I will try to find out more. [ March 27, 2004, 10:22 PM: Message edited by: aragorn2002 ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hans Posted March 28, 2004 Author Share Posted March 28, 2004 Another interesting episode, there seem to be some interesting gems in those early Dutch days of the war. Possible areas of interest - I'll contact the Dutch Command and General staff college and does anyone have a list of Dutch war game clubs? Those miniature guys tend to ferret out such information. Hans 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted March 28, 2004 Share Posted March 28, 2004 Thanks guys. Aragorn, it is funny - the picture of the Glasgow Highlander is actually a reference to the 1944 battle, while the other info on the site seems related to the 1940 battle. The Glasgow Highlanders relieved the Canadian 5th Brigade on the 2nd of November after we failed to expand our bridgehead on the western side of the causeway. EDIT - just looked around on the whole site - wish I spoke Dutch, looks like this guy has researched both battles - ie 1940 and 1944. Nice find! [ March 28, 2004, 12:54 AM: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaws Posted March 28, 2004 Share Posted March 28, 2004 Speaking about the Canadians they battled a lot in Holland. I’ve bin on a battlefield tour 3 weeks ago in the area of the town Zutphen alongside the river IJSSEL. We followed a part of operation “Cannon shot” (April 1945). They formed a bridgehead at the village of Gorssel (there is a Canadian monument) with Buffalos and build 2 pontoons bridges. I have a lot of detailed info and was planning to make a scenario in CMAK. But in CMAK the Canadians are only modelled until 1943. :mad: A funny thing is that they would free Holland the same way as the Germans attacked it 5 years earlier. We owe a lot to the Canadians Edit due spell error.... [ March 28, 2004, 05:38 AM: Message edited by: Jaws ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aragorn2002 Posted March 28, 2004 Share Posted March 28, 2004 We own a lot in Canada, you mean ? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aragorn2002 Posted March 28, 2004 Share Posted March 28, 2004 Sorry, you mean 'owe' of course, couldn't resist. Nice map. [ March 28, 2004, 05:18 AM: Message edited by: aragorn2002 ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted March 28, 2004 Share Posted March 28, 2004 The Canadians are in the CMAK editor until February 1945, actually. And you can change the date in "paramaters" and put them in any timeframe you want, even if they aren't originally in that time frame. So go ahead and use them! The units depicted on your map (PPCLI, Loyal Edmontons and Seaforth Highlanders) fought in Italy (CMAK) from July 1943 to February 1945, funnily enough. The 1st and 5th Divisions transferred to Holland in Feb-Mar 1945 and saw combat again in April, turning west as the other Canadian divisions header north and east into Germany. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bertram Posted March 28, 2004 Share Posted March 28, 2004 Michael, The book is not available at the University Library (not in the catalog, so also not in an other University Library in the Netherlands). Makes me wonder if it isn't a provate project of the author. The "official" history of the second World War for the Netherklands is written by Dr. L. de Jong. 10 book, of which the latter ones are divided in parts A and B I believe. Part 3 describes the May days of 1940. Chapter 7 is devoted to Zeeland (pages 433 to 445). It is rather low on details, but gives as attacker the SS-Standarte "Gross Deutschland". Defenders were the several Dutch reserve regiments, added straglers from the Peel (rather demoralized), and parts of the French 60st and 68th infantry devisions (reservists, most called up just before the fighting and without proper equipment). I'll try to post a picture and a map from the book. Bertram edit: can't seem to post a picture. Have some scans, will add them when I have puzzled out how to do it. [ March 28, 2004, 11:55 AM: Message edited by: Bertram ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bertram Posted March 28, 2004 Share Posted March 28, 2004 Picture?? Bertram 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted March 28, 2004 Share Posted March 28, 2004 Grossdeutschland was an Army formation and their III Battalion fought in operation Niwi - an air landing at the Peel Line, IIRC. I think you mean SS Standarte "Deutschland"? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bertram Posted March 28, 2004 Share Posted March 28, 2004 The book gives it as "the regiment SS-Standarte "Gross Deutschland" which had to take the islands". Don't blame me . Bertram 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaws Posted March 28, 2004 Share Posted March 28, 2004 Originally posted by Michael Dorosh: The Canadians are in the CMAK editor until February 1945, actually. And you can change the date in "paramaters" and put them in any timeframe you want, even if they aren't originally in that time frame. So go ahead and use them! The units depicted on your map (PPCLI, Loyal Edmontons and Seaforth Highlanders) fought in Italy (CMAK) from July 1943 to February 1945, funnily enough. The 1st and 5th Divisions transferred to Holland in Feb-Mar 1945 and saw combat again in April, turning west as the other Canadian divisions header north and east into Germany. Thanks, I don't get why I didn't see that. (I will start with the scenario direct ) The 1st Canadian Army did this operation. It was the first time that they did an operation independent from the other Allies and under full Canadian command. Except for Arnhem, that city was to be done by the British 47 Infantry Division as a revenge for Market Garden. The part we followed was done by the 2nd Infantry Brigade from the 1st Infantry Division from the 1st Army Corps reinforced with tanks from the 5th Tank Division. The Battalions you mention are from the 2nd Infantry Brigade. Nice to read that they did their job in Italy. That explains to me why they did a very good job here on tactical level. I did quite a lot of battlefield tours but was never impressed by the way the Allies did their job on tactical level. I’ve seen two exceptions now, Team Desorby (Noville) and the Canadians in the area of Zutphen. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted March 29, 2004 Share Posted March 29, 2004 The First and Fifth Divisions were more than a little pissed at having to come to Holland to finish the war on many levels. Eighth Army had kicked the Germans out of the desert, and they were proud to be associated with the guys wearing the Crusader's Cross on their shoulders. Also, Eighth Army had very lax rules when it came to dress and "chicken**** rules" as they called it. As long as you could fight that was what counted. Arriving in Holland, they had their beloved Thompsons taken away (in favour of the Sten), were told that dress regulations would be firmly enforced, and moreover, having fought from July 1943 to February 1945 in Italy, they felt they had done their part. When news of the Third Division landing in Normandy reached Italy, one harassed First Division soldier grumbled "about time those bastards did something." He wasn't alone in his thinking; the First Div had been in action for 11 months, and would see 11 more months of active service before it was all over. So the fact that they were able to maintain their professionalism in the closing weeks of the war despite the morale issues, says a lot. They were also accepting draftees into combat units by this time, also. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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