TotenkopfZZ Posted April 5, 2004 Share Posted April 5, 2004 As the British the Vickers MMG seems to jam consistently in the worst heat of battle, usually for several turns. In the current QB, 3 Vickers were rushed forward, deployed 30-40 meters from the crest of a hill and when the enemy approached they fired no more than a few shots each and all three are jammed. Terrible conicidence I thought, but then I look at the other flank and one of my MMg's there is also jammed. This is not the first time I have noticed this pattern as the British. Playing the Germans it seemed like I had many fewer jams. I searched the manual for "jams" and the Forum for it too and only found out that it not only stands for malfunctions but for barrel changing and such. Is it common for the Vickers MMG to "jam" a lot? Are there certain models that are better or worse than others. Speaking game terms only here, not historically. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve McClaire Posted April 5, 2004 Share Posted April 5, 2004 Originally posted by TotenkopfZZ: Is it common for the Vickers MMG to "jam" a lot? Are there certain models that are better or worse than others.[/QB]No explanation to add, but I noticed this same thing in a recent game. My Vickers MMGs would consistenly jam, as often after less than 1 turn of firing. I had written it off to bad luck, but now it seems there may be more to it than that. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Some_God Posted April 6, 2004 Share Posted April 6, 2004 That happened to my MG34 in the worste possible moment... but then it unjammed. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Jim Posted April 6, 2004 Share Posted April 6, 2004 MGs jam more in hot weather (in game and historically)- maybe the Vickers isn't as suited to hot weather as the MG34/42. I'm guessing since it dated back to the first world war then it should be reliable to stay in service that long, so maybe it's the different climate? Kind of annoying- noticed similar thing, but thinking about it, not happened as much in Italy.. Just like a Limey like me to blame things on the weather. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve McClaire Posted April 6, 2004 Share Posted April 6, 2004 Originally posted by Big Jim: MGs jam more in hot weather (in game and historically)- maybe the Vickers isn't as suited to hot weather as the MG34/42...I'm not an expert on the Vickers MG, but I believe it was water cooled. Intuitively I would think this would perform better than air cooled MGs like the MG34/42 with high air temperatures. Everything I can find on-line (hardly a definitive source, but all that's handy) seems to indicate the Vickers was rugged and reliable. Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted April 6, 2004 Share Posted April 6, 2004 TotenkopfZZ, The Vickers MMG should be one of the most reliable weapons in the game. Indeed, there was an incident during WW I in which ten such weapons belonging to the 100th Machine Gun Corps were told to deny a particular area to the enemy for twelve hours during the Battle of the Somme. Ammo, water, and barrel changes were provided (barrel life ~10,000 rounds). Each gun averaged 8300 rounds/hr., with the best gun managing a bit over 10,000 rounds/ hour. 1,000,000 rounds were fired at a target zone 2000 yards away. Nothing got through, and there were no major mechanical breakdowns. All ten guns were still in action after twelve hours of almost constant firing. Full details are in INFANTRY WEAPONS (Ballantines Weapons, Book No. 25) by John Weeks, pp. 124-125. Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TotenkopfZZ Posted April 6, 2004 Author Share Posted April 6, 2004 Just finished another ten turns in our QB. Of the 8 Vickers MMG's that were at the front and firing consitently, I witness 4 JAM's and one jammed a second time, only firing for 4 out of the ten turns. If the Vickers really was so reliable, then I have a bunch on novice gunners in my troops who apparently are uneducated in their service record. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Posted April 6, 2004 Share Posted April 6, 2004 Remember that the JAM can also mean changing the barrel, coolant liquid or other interruptions like that. I haven't actually payed any attention to it before, so has anyone tested the relative jamming likelihood of different MG's? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Jim Posted April 6, 2004 Share Posted April 6, 2004 Yeah, I must admit, with the fact that the Vickers dated back to World War I with no need to replace it then I thought it must be pretty solid. And it would make more sense for air-cooled MGs to jam more in desert conditions. Maybe scarcity of water in the desert then- they couldn't replace it, so they have to give the MGs regular rests to prevent overheating? Pure speculation really. Might try running a test one day.. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bogdan Posted April 6, 2004 Share Posted April 6, 2004 Originally posted by Big Jim: Maybe scarcity of water in the desert then- they couldn't replace it, so they have to give the MGs regular rests to prevent overheating? Ahem... ...I don't think BFC modelized it but, when MG crew ran out of water, IIRC, they used to pi$$ on it (or into the water tank) in order to refresh the barrel of the weapon a bit Grogs will surelly explain to us if this "technique" was often used or not. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Jim Posted April 6, 2004 Share Posted April 6, 2004 OK, here we go.. The conditions for my test were: May '45, All Combined, Very Dry, Hot, Arid Rocks, Area Target for MGs 150m to the front, Regular units out of command. In my first test, I got one of each type of MG for British, American and German forces, and got them to fire for seven turns. Figures indicate no. of jams. British: Bren 0, Vickers 0. Americans: BAR 0, 1917HMG 2, 1919MMG 1, .50Cal 1 Germans: lMG34 0, lMG42 0, hMG34 1, hMG42 2 My second experiment was to test reliability (under same desert conditions) of the Vickers vs. MG34 and 42. Letters indicate different teams, six Vickers teams and three each for the German weapons. Vickers: a 1, b 1, c 2, d 1, e 1, f 0. Total=6 MG34: a 1, b 2, c 1. MG42: d 0, e 0, f 1. Total=5 The experiment (which is pretty limited in validity to those conditions and by the size) seems to indicate that the Vickers jams about as much as the MG34 and MG42 taken as an average. The MG42 seems to be more reliable than the MG34, but I suppose you'd be using the MG34 more in the desert due to the time period. Seems to me that on average all heavy/medium MGs probably jam as often, and a lot depends upon the fortunes of the god of war! If I get bored another day I'll run some hypothesis tests, but I don't think the experiment is big enough to be conclusive anyways. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Jim Posted April 6, 2004 Share Posted April 6, 2004 Originally posted by Bogdan: Ahem... ...I don't think BFC modelized it but, when MG crew ran out of water, IIRC, they used to pi$$ on it (or into the water tank) in order to refresh the barrel of the weapon a bit Grogs will surelly explain to us if this "technique" was often used or not. You know what they say: "Waste not want not" 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lars Posted April 6, 2004 Share Posted April 6, 2004 Originally posted by TotenkopfZZ: Just finished another ten turns in our QB. Of the 8 Vickers MMG's that were at the front and firing consitently, I witness 4 JAM's and one jammed a second time, only firing for 4 out of the ten turns. If the Vickers really was so reliable, then I have a bunch on novice gunners in my troops who apparently are uneducated in their service record. So you got three back firing and one out of eight that had a bad day? Now somebody needs to test the unjamming rate, which would tell you more about reliability. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exSpecForSgt Posted April 6, 2004 Share Posted April 6, 2004 Originally posted by Bogdan: Ahem... I don't think BFC modelized it but, when MG crew ran out of water, IIRC, they used to pi$$ on it (or into the water tank) in order to refresh the barrel of the weapon a bit. Grogs will surelly explain to us if this "technique" was often used or not. Yes, this "technique" works, surprisingly well, in fact. Stinks like the dickens, but actually seems to work better than lucricating oil or grease or anything else you can imagine. Oh, and one doesn't apply this "technique" to the barrel (or water tank), one applies it to the breech and other working parts. Small difference, but =VERY= important. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Jim Posted April 7, 2004 Share Posted April 7, 2004 Unjamming lasted on average until the next turn, with all but one unjamming the same turn and two or so taking two turns to unjam. That's just in desert conditions, but again there seems to be no difference between different MGs. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted April 7, 2004 Share Posted April 7, 2004 Originally posted by Big Jim: ...I don't think the experiment is big enough to be conclusive anyways. That is so. Sorry to be the one to break the news, but CM is fairly unique among games in allowing unlikely things to happen, just as they do in real life. That also means that you can get a string of unlikely things, again just like in real life. Think of the major league pitcher who has a hot season at bat and finishes up hitting .300. Who would have bet on that? So, in order to have much assurance that your test figures truly represent the underlying odds of a jam, you are probably going to have to run 100 trials or more. Even better would be 1,000 trials, but 100 will probably give you the rough idea. I think Treeburst155 could tell you something about this. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Jim Posted April 7, 2004 Share Posted April 7, 2004 Originally posted by Michael Emrys: Sorry to be the one to break the news, but CM is fairly unique among games in allowing unlikely things to happen, just as they do in real life. That also means that you can get a string of unlikely things, again just like in real life. Think of the major league pitcher who has a hot season at bat and finishes up hitting .300. Who would have bet on that? Not bad news- it's one of the reasons I love the game so much. What can go wrong, usually does, after all! I gather .300 is some kind of season batting average? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted April 7, 2004 Share Posted April 7, 2004 Originally posted by Big Jim: I gather .300 is some kind of season batting average? It is indeed, and rarely achieved by pitchers, who tend to hit somewhere around .125. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PS Posted April 13, 2004 Share Posted April 13, 2004 The Vickers manual listed ALL the mechanical faults that could happen when firing. So if one happened you knew how to fix it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seanachai Posted April 13, 2004 Share Posted April 13, 2004 Originally posted by PS: The Vickers manual listed ALL the mechanical faults that could happen when firing. So if one happened you knew how to fix it. You got a manual? I got one of those 'open box/returns' ones, and I never could get it properly set up on the bren tripod I bought from another dealership. Doesn't matter, really, as you need a weapon with a much higher rate of fire for squirrels... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted April 13, 2004 Share Posted April 13, 2004 Originally posted by Seanachai: Doesn't matter, really, as you need a weapon with a much higher rate of fire for squirrels... No, what you need are nuclear hand grenades. Obviously. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auggy Posted April 13, 2004 Share Posted April 13, 2004 Originally posted by Michael Emrys: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Seanachai: Doesn't matter, really, as you need a weapon with a much higher rate of fire for squirrels... No, what you need are nuclear hand grenades. Obviously. Michael </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seanachai Posted April 13, 2004 Share Posted April 13, 2004 Originally posted by Auggy: Isn't there a picture of Senachai and Lars squirrel hunting out there? If there is, be glad it's not a 'scratch and sniff'... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted April 13, 2004 Share Posted April 13, 2004 You forgot to mention that a machinegun jam is when two or more MGs get together and riff. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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