Carl Puppchen Posted July 18, 2004 Share Posted July 18, 2004 I was working on a scenario in early mid 1942 and wanted to have forces arriving with guns embarked and then having to debark on the map in a confused surprise action. The Germans, of course, have a number of half tracks capable of moving their large guns including artillery and flak. The Allies (British), on the other hand, basically had the bren carrier or they had trucks. The bren carrier has good off road mobility but can't tow much, basically a 2 pounder. If you want to bring a bigger gun into play, you need to take it on a truck, which has poor off road mobility. Do you think that the fact that Germans had half tracks that enabled them to bring guns along off road contributed to their success at combined arms? I realize that doctrine also worked against the Allies at least during the time between O'Connor and Montgomery, or at least poor coordination in practice. I remember seeing many pictures of the special vehicle that the allies used to move 25 pounder guns, when did that come into play? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted July 18, 2004 Share Posted July 18, 2004 The carrier could tow 6 pounder field pieces as well; in fact, any weapon used in an infantry battalion could be, and was, moved by carrier. The Germans never had enough halftracks; and many of the halftracked prime movers were unarmoured (Sd Kfz 7 for example) and there were never enough of them. German trucks in the desert were not as capable of offroad travel as British trucks, which had wider tires and were better generally speaking. The Germans relied on captured British and Canadian manufactured trucks in North Africa and photos of CMP (Canadian Military Pattern), Bedford et al in German colours are common. Even Rommel had two large caravan type vehicles built by the British for use as his personal headquarters (in addition to GREIF, his famous halftrack command post). The Quad (short for Quadraped, since power went to all four wheels) gun tractor came into service before the French campaign IIRC. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadGav Posted July 18, 2004 Share Posted July 18, 2004 Carrier doesn't just mean Bren Carrier, there's also the larger Loyd Carrier which was mostly used as a gun tractor iirc. I don't think that's in the game though. The IWM Duxford has one, along with a Quad and LARGE trucks for towing heavier guns. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted July 18, 2004 Share Posted July 18, 2004 Originally posted by MadGav: Carrier doesn't just mean Bren Carrier, there's also the larger Loyd Carrier which was mostly used as a gun tractor iirc. I don't think that's in the game though. The IWM Duxford has one, along with a Quad and LARGE trucks for towing heavier guns. The Windsor Carrier was also produced in Canada; it was a UC with lengthened body and one extra roadwheel. There were also T16s (?) which were tracked weapons carriers. My main point was that the idea the Germans were more mobile in the desert may not be completely accurate; they scavenged many CW vehicles because of their superior mobility. Even elite panzergrenadier units in Russia (Grossdeutschland comes to mind) were critically short of halftracks as a matter of course; I can only imagine (not having examined the numbers) that Rommel in Africa was probably not in any better shape. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Posted July 18, 2004 Share Posted July 18, 2004 Mr. Sergei Pickyvich would point out that Carriers are fully tracked, thus not halftracks. I too would think that most of the time Germany had shortages of motor vehicles. North Africa may have been an exception for them because there you couldn't rely on horses and the environment required high mobility. Actual figures would be interesting. What did CW use to tow the 7.2" guns? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 Originally posted by Sergei: Mr. Sergei Pickyvich would point out that Carriers are fully tracked, thus not halftracks. I too would think that most of the time Germany had shortages of motor vehicles. North Africa may have been an exception for them because there you couldn't rely on horses and the environment required high mobility. Actual figures would be interesting.All German infantry divisions in Africa were (officially) designed "motoriziert" - yes, the long distances, barren terrain, and climate required this degree of mobility. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomm Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 Originally posted by Michael Dorosh: All German infantry divisions in Africa were (officially) designed "motoriziert" - yes, the long distances, barren terrain, and climate required this degree of mobility. It is "motorisiert". 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingfish Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 Originally posted by Sergei: What did CW use to tow the 7.2" guns? Behold! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tero Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 IIRC the Germans used a number of captured French halftracks (Kegresse ?). From that I deduct at least the French had some in the inventory prior to 1940. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted July 20, 2004 Share Posted July 20, 2004 Originally posted by Michael Dorosh: All German infantry divisions in Africa were (officially) designed "motoriziert" - yes, the long distances, barren terrain, and climate required this degree of mobility. Yeah, the DAK (in its fullest sense) was the most motorised force that the Germans ever fielded. Nary a nag to be seen. OTOH, ISTR that the entire frce had the giddy total of only six armoured haldftracks, or thereabouts. Unrestricted force picks can do wonderful things for historical perception Regards JonS 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattias Posted July 20, 2004 Share Posted July 20, 2004 Originally posted by Kingfish: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Sergei: What did CW use to tow the 7.2" guns? Behold! </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dandelion Posted July 21, 2004 Share Posted July 21, 2004 Originally posted by JonS: OTOH, ISTR that the entire frce had the giddy total of only six armoured halftracks, or thereabouts. Unrestricted force picks can do wonderful things for historical perception Regards JonS [/QB]Indeed it can Jon, indeed it can. Normal allotment for any army Panzergrenadier regiment would of course be a company worth of SPWs, but I don´t believe a single SPW 251/1 ever reached the DAK (speaking DAK specifically). The six you mention perhaps refer to a specific moment in time, the DAK did (over time) have quite a few armoured halftracks of the command and signal type, mostly of the 250 series. You'll probably know every one of them well. They keep appearing on photos, i.e. German propaganda photos from the period. Also, the SdKfz 7 and 11 series are "armoured" if one really wants them to be, and can be listed as armoured halftracks, I have noticed. Unusual insofar that the corps was fully motorised, every man and piece of equipment could be lifted on wheels at the same time. The DAK had an unusual amount of motor vehicles, unusually liberally equipped with armoured cars, an unusual amount of captured vehicles and it retained the motorcycle as infantry transport long after it had been relegated fom such use in other German infantry units. Well, the men might not have enjoyed tracked armoured transport, but the water did, by means of this Wasserschlepper Cheerio Dandelion 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flamingknives Posted July 21, 2004 Share Posted July 21, 2004 Are those PzIV tracks under that thing? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dandelion Posted July 21, 2004 Share Posted July 21, 2004 Originally posted by flamingknives: Are those PzIV tracks under that thing? Got me there. I really don't know. Any Wasserschleppergrogs around? Cheers Dandelion 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl Puppchen Posted July 21, 2004 Author Share Posted July 21, 2004 I am not trying to sound dumb but if people are saying that the 251 half track series didn't make it to africa what are they doing in the game? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dandelion Posted July 21, 2004 Share Posted July 21, 2004 Originally posted by Carl Puppchen: I am not trying to sound dumb but if people are saying that the 251 half track series didn't make it to africa what are they doing in the game? Didn't make it to the DAK. Speaking combat models of the 251 series. Other German units in Africa used them. One might have - for QB purpouses - limited access to combat SPW of the 251 series until the arrival of PD10, Dezember 41. But its no big thing really, the more the merrier I say and who knows if some document does not appear, proving there were a handful of them in the DAK after all. Besides, I hear ppl are not fond of buying SPWs in QB setups anyway. Cheerio Dandelion 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted July 21, 2004 Share Posted July 21, 2004 A lot of people labour under the impression that the DAK were the only German forces in Africa. They weren't, they were just one corps in the overall whole. From my now defunct "The Med" site: ORGANIZATION OF GERMAN FORCES IN NORTH AFRICA The first German forces to arrive in Africa in early 1941 were referred to as Aufklärungsstab Rommel. Deutsches Afrika Korps On 19 February 1941, the German forces in theatre were personally designated by Hitler as Deutsches Afrika Korps (DAK). The DAK fought alongside its Italian allies, and in time, other German forces moved to Africa in addition; by the time of the surrender in 1943, the DAK was only a part of a much larger German-Italian presence in Africa known as Panzerarmee Afrika. The DAK consisted of 5th Light Division (later renamed 21st Panzer Division) and 15th Panzer Division, as well as corps troops. Panzergruppe Afrika The troops under Rommel's command expanded to a Panzer Group in August 1941. In addition to the DAK, the Panzer Group also commanded the 90th Light Division and six Italian Divisions; XX Corps (with Ariete and Trieste Divisions), XXI Corps (with Pavia, Bologna and Brescia Divisions) and the Savona Division. Panzerarmee Afrika In January 1942, the Panzer Group was renamed Panzer Army Afrika, also being known as Deutsch-Italienische Armee (German-Italian Army). By August 1942, The Panzer Army consisted of the DAK, the 90th Light Division, 164th Infantry Division, the Ramcke parachute brigade, eight Italian divisions divided into three corps, and various corps units. 1st Italian Army In February 1943, the Army was retitled as 1st Italian Army (1. Italienische Armee). XC Corps On 14 November 1942, Stab Nehring was created; a headquarters whose purpose was to plan for the defence of Tunisia. The next day, this headquarters was renamed the XC Corps. This headquarters commanded several Italian divisions in addition to a mixture of Army and Luftwaffe troops. Panzer-Armeeoberkommando 5 The XC Corps was absorbed by another newly formed headquarters unit in December 1942, Pz.A.O.K. 5. This headquarters absorbed XC Corps, as well as bringing under command 10th Panzer Division, 21st Panzer Division, 334 Infantry Division and several other Army and Luftwaffe units. Heeresgruppe Afrika Army Group Africa was created in February 1943, consisting of the 1st Italian Army, and the Panzer-Armeeoberkommando 5, both described above. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingfish Posted July 21, 2004 Share Posted July 21, 2004 Originally posted by Dandelion: One might have - for QB purpouses - limited access to combat SPW of the 251 series until the arrival of PD10, Dezember 41. ...psss...its December 42... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dandelion Posted July 21, 2004 Share Posted July 21, 2004 Originally posted by Kingfish: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Dandelion: One might have - for QB purpouses - limited access to combat SPW of the 251 series until the arrival of PD10, Dezember 41. ...psss...its December 42... </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted July 21, 2004 Share Posted July 21, 2004 Stauffenberg, of course... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dandelion Posted July 22, 2004 Share Posted July 22, 2004 Originally posted by Michael Dorosh: Stauffenberg, of course... Ah quick answer there Yes, of course. Has extremely little to do with the impact of German halftracked towing vehicles I suppose. But I feel the good count is worth a second of thought every now and then. I'll just put his picture right here and everyone interested in halftracks will stop and think a while. Now, about the off-topic topic of Wasserschleppers, I actually found a website on them. Turns out two were apparently produced with PzKpfw IV chassis and tracks. Germanspeakers will find morehere (no concept yet as to credibility of this site - for non Germanspeakers look to the menu left and click Gorssgeräte, a menu appears to the right with Land- Wasserschlepper in it a bit down, just click). Cheerio Dandelion 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted July 22, 2004 Share Posted July 22, 2004 dalem figures Stauffenberg was just a "Nazi"; can you corroborate that? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Posted July 22, 2004 Share Posted July 22, 2004 Nazi or not, he still was a German, a sin far more important. People might choose to become Nazis out of pure ignorance, but the choice to become Germans is the result of pure evilness. Just look at Andreas. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dandelion Posted July 22, 2004 Share Posted July 22, 2004 Originally posted by Michael Dorosh: dalem figures Stauffenberg was just a "Nazi"; can you corroborate that? No I can't. I don't see how that opinion can be shaped from what is known. Speaking politically convinced Nazi. I'm not saying he was all cuddly, and certainly not the person modern German media would have wanted him to have been. Someone the New Germany is in need of for legitimacy and inspiration. A modern German democrat. Au contraire. The Count of Stauffenberg did not express, as far as I know, any ideological conviction of any kind. He regarded himself as apolitical, but of course he wasn't. All conservatives always tell themselves they are apolitical simply because they don't want to change anything, as if that is not also political. He was a conservative aristocrat, with politically liberal views (German scale of reference) with leanings toward the Weimar establishment, if any. He was a patriot, meaning he had a sincere problem separating his individual identity from that of (the concept of) Germany. He felt shame on behalf of Germany, for what he saw in the Soviet Union. There are no individual acts and no individual responsibility in the views he expresses, except his own. He has the collective attitude typical of German aristocrats. Society as a body. I fail to see he was a convinced democrat. It was majority vote that had brought what he found to be vulgar mobs to power in Germany, and that had enabled the dictatorship of mediocracy in which he despaired. Socially he remained isolated within his own narrow caste. If he accepted democracy, it will have been as Churchill - a fellow aristocrat - accepted it, not an inch further (namely as the lesser of a number of evils). The Nazis were revolutionary. They paraded their disdain for Old Germany insofar as to despise aristocrats, privileges and social injustice (a profile much toned down after the Long Knives of course, but still present). I scarcely think any of that will have hit home in the heart of a Count. And he was very much a count, his real name was Claus Maria Schenck but he never dropped his title Graf von Stauffenberg at any point - like some other aristocrats serving the Nazis did. The Nazis despised education and academics, the Stauffenberg family were 100% academics. As for ideas of races - Stauffenberg might well have harboured them. All of Europe did, even the British caleld themselves "the island race" at this time. But Nazi? No, I can't see how I am to meander myself into such a conclusion. Tho I can sympathise with the problem of separating Nazis, patriots, chavinists, racists, reactionary and revanchiste. They share many common traits and express like opinions in like manners. Perhaps Dalem meant "Nazi" as in a person part of the establishment in Germany at the time, lending service to a criminal régime for ten years before reacting - and then only in the face of defeat. A successful takeover by the group around Stauffenberg need not have meant anything significant. It could have, but need not have. How do you size him up Michael? Regards Dandelion 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dandelion Posted July 22, 2004 Share Posted July 22, 2004 Originally posted by Sergei: Nazi or not, he still was a German, a sin far more important. People might choose to become Nazis out of pure ignorance, but the choice to become Germans is the result of pure evilness. Just look at Andreas. Define "German". Its an interesting exercise. Cheerio Dandelion 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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