Snow Leopard Posted February 12, 2004 Share Posted February 12, 2004 Had any of you play on Italian side often and win plenty of them in CMAK. Are they always in "green" skill level in historic sense? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Posted February 12, 2004 Share Posted February 12, 2004 Only if set to be so. An Elite Italian squad is just as Elite as a German or British one. However, an Elite M13 does not equal an Elite Sherman. Since this is a very broadly named thread, let me ask the following question: What are the most effective tactics for Italians in CMAK? What vehicles, guns and infantry squads give you best equivalent for buck? What should you avoid? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoofyStance Posted February 12, 2004 Share Posted February 12, 2004 ***** DISCLAIMER: The following response is based on limited experience playing CMAK, and only vs. the AI. Thank you. ***** I've been driven to distraction by the generally crappy Italian vehicles and AFV's available for QB's, but was determined to find a combination that would afford me even the shred of a chance at winning a defensive battle. I've found that in small QB's (less than 1000 points) two or three 75mm Modello AA guns (or maybe the 75mm PaK AT gun, if available), plus a pioneer platoon and several Breda MMG's were fairly handy for fighting off mixed-arms assaults. Just be sure to purchase several trenches, or place the big guns on opposite sides of the map in palm tree groves or brush, way back from the start line, and try to place at least one under HQ command. Then hope one or more of them survive long enough to make a difference. The pioneers squads with their large number of rifles aren't bad for medium-range fighting, and the flamethrowers can be placed next to the victory flags, hidden and with short covered arcs. Worked for me ... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xerxes Posted February 12, 2004 Share Posted February 12, 2004 For early war the Italians aren't half bad. Best ATR of the war. Best tankette, an L3 can rip infantry up Wasp-like flame tankette Hard hitting portee with a 75mm gun Solid general purpose 75mm field gun The 75mm AA is a heavy tank killer Later on the Italian paratrooper squads are smg armed terrors in closed terrain. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl Puppchen Posted February 13, 2004 Share Posted February 13, 2004 Mortars Italian mortars have a high ammo capacity. The 45mm mortar has a load of 80 rounds and the 81mm has a crew of 8 and more rounds than the German counterpart. Tanks The 75mm high explosive on the Semovante (sorry for spelling) is useful in the desert - buying a platoon is a pretty cheap way to chuck HE. Their main disadvantage is a lack of MG. Can't say much good about the M13/40 they are pretty poorly armored, although the 47mm gun isn't too bad. Guns The 65mm mountain gun is a cheap and handy weapon. Their 20mm AA guns are also cheap. The 75mm AA gun can be a killer but it is immobile and I feel ahistorical using them in an AT role because I haven't really seen literature showing them using the guns in that role. The 47mm gun is OK vs tanks especially if you are not facing Matildas or anything like a Lee or of course Sherman. When those tanks come into play you need to use the 75mm / 76mm PAK guns. Infantry Agree on the power of the close in SMG's on the paratroopers. The typical Italian squad is OK with rifles and built in MG. Weird Stuff I haven't had much luck w/those flame tankettes. Hard to hide in the desert and they brew up quickly. The crocodile had better armor! Also the mobile truck guns tend to die pretty quickly. Unlike the 2 pounder portees they shoot forward, so at least you don't have to go in reverse. Timing By the time you get to mid-late 1942 and onto 1943 the Italians get way outclassed. Might as well back your tanks off the board if facing Lee and Sherman tanks. Facing early war British junk, they face a fighting chance, especially if well dug in and led well. The Italians are fun to play, especially if every so often you mix in a German 88 or tank or two to "stiffen" the ranks. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonC Posted February 13, 2004 Share Posted February 13, 2004 Their best weapon is the 75mm field gun. Deals with anything short of a Matilda at range. (The 75mm AA can handle those, but is too large and expensive for ordinary QB use). The light AA and the Breda MMG are both excellent, and the 81mm mortar is fine. All can hit things at range without revealing themselves. The infantry is fine. Give a platoon an MMG for longer range pinning fire, add the LMG squads once the enemy gets to 200-350m, and the remainder at 100-150m. The paras, when available, are strong SMG infantry. It is the armor that is weak. The M13/40 is the best of the lot, and the L3-33 is cheap and ok as light armor goes. (It hits things like an HMG - 50 cal style penetration - and it is hard to hit itself because it is so small). Don't try to use the portees, they are too vulnerable. The armored cars aren't as good as the L3-33. For arty, air is a good option (the CR42 is cheap and brings a large bomb, the Maccis are good all-around FBs), and the 105 FOs are solid - nothing spectacular but effective. Defending, if you use the effective weapons they are fine. You fight them at range, relying on the stealthy heavy weapons to pin enemy infantry (the AA will also stop light armor). When tanks show up the 75mms unhide at the right moment to get as many of them as possible. Attacking, you can't lean too heavily on the tanks. Bring 75mm field guns and 81mm mortars and overwatch with them, ready to kill guns in particular. Advance the infantry. A few L3-33s pushed forward can help get full spots against sound contact MGs and the like. Try to keep M13/40s (or 75mm Semventes) back in defilade until you've dealt with some of the enemy guns, then bring them out to help against infantry. I've found them fine on defense using these weapons, but a bit underpowered and awkward on the attack. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted February 13, 2004 Share Posted February 13, 2004 I've found the M13/40 to be a very formidable tank against the early Cruiser types (A9, A10, A13). In three out of four battles where I pitted equal numbers on both sides, the M13/40s ate them alive. Even though the British crews were mostly veteran with some regulars and the Italians mostly green with some conscripts, the Italians were regularly scoring first round hits and kills even a 1000 meters. The Brits never did quite that well shot for shot. They won the last match because a quirk of terrain allowed them to gang up somewhat against the Italians who only appeared in a piecemeal fashion. A lot clearly depends on chance, but don't sell the M13/40 short when they are matched against tanks with armor no better than their own. Against the Valentines, Matildas, or the American mediums they aren't going to cut it though. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonC Posted February 13, 2004 Share Posted February 13, 2004 Even against Crusaders they are marginal. Stuarts will eat them alive. The early Cruisers, yeah, that is about how good they are, and fights between 13/40s and Cruisers will generally go to the guy who sets up many-on-fews better (often just by staying together), or if that is even just by whoever gets the first couple effective hits. Armor is not the Italian's long suit. They are much more competitive in the ranged heavy weapons department. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omi Posted February 13, 2004 Share Posted February 13, 2004 I enjoyed playing as Italian so far. The 45mm and 81mm mortars with tons of shells are great. I haven't found any good way to use for all the Italian armored vehicles. Their only advantage is that they can make enemy tank commader burst out laughing, which is the equivalent of "shaken" status. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hans Posted February 13, 2004 Share Posted February 13, 2004 I like the Italians especially in early war years. The best bet you have is to concentrate on infantry and artillery and forgo the tanks - such as they are! The suggestion for CAS is a good one - but I tend to go in a 'buy your own' for arty and quality inf. My first battle in CMBB (completely random) turned up Italians vs Soviets - I managed to obtain a draw against a Soviet T-34 led infantry force - liked 'them thar' Italians since. Unfortunately the 100 and 104mm guns are not included, they were known to have some AT ability. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snow Leopard Posted February 13, 2004 Author Share Posted February 13, 2004 I had noticed some good and bad stuff and what I prefer aviod equipments. However when I am play historic scenario like "Attack the Nibeiwa Fort" with all exact what Italian have equipment on hand in that scenario. I played it few time. I feel I should not tell you how I come out until many people play it often then we will share how Italian won or lost. I had been figure out how to have Italian deal with Matida tank. (Funny, I want to tell how I but I try not spoiled other people's challenge like don't tell other friends what happen in end in movie) I agree with some of you guys about what best weapon like atr, La3, field cannon, mortar and other stuff. One member ask us what best strategy tactic for Italian against Allies, I am still work on it. Sometime, it was so tempt to go to Scenario editor to edit some weapons to try beat enemy, I sometime do that and save it with name title version "2". I am glad it is other worthy subject to discuss about it. I agree with ASL's title for Italian force is "Hollow Legions" 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hans Posted February 13, 2004 Share Posted February 13, 2004 Snow Leopard, se siete interessati nei piani d'azione con gli italiani io abbia quanto segue in su al deposito del piano d'azione Small Battles, Action at Mombo is an Italian Probe against the Brits Small Battles, The Transvaal Scottish Hold is an Italian Attack Small Battles, East of Elba is an RSI defense against a New Zealander force Small Battles, Epirus is an Italian attack against the Greeks Small Battles, Babbot vs Nussolini is a ME with Italians vs Australians Small Battles, At the Sullen Well of Taleh is an Italo-German force in a ME with the Brits Coming in 2-3 days Small Battles, Colina del Lamimatoio an Italian attack against the Rhodesians in Somalia Small Battles, Lolla Alla Morte! is an Italo-German delay/withdrawl from a Canadian encirclement More Italian actions to come to include the famous CTV actions in the Spanish Civil War and working on an Italian SP ambush of US Shermans in Sicily. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snow Leopard Posted February 13, 2004 Author Share Posted February 13, 2004 Originally posted by GoofyStance: ***** DISCLAIMER: The following response is based on limited experience playing CMAK, and only vs. the AI. Thank you. ***** I've been driven to distraction by the generally crappy Italian vehicles and AFV's available for QB's, but was determined to find a combination that would afford me even the shred of a chance at winning a defensive battle....... the flamethrowers can be placed next to the victory flags, hidden and with short covered arcs. Worked for me ... Thank you Goofystance however, try play historic scenario. I enjoy play quick game but feel like cheat. I sometime create extra version of historic scenario with few equipment change to see outcome. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snow Leopard Posted February 13, 2004 Author Share Posted February 13, 2004 Originally posted by xerxes: For early war the Italians aren't half bad. Best ATR of the war. Best tankette, an L3 can rip infantry up Wasp-like flame tankette Hard hitting portee with a 75mm gun Solid general purpose 75mm field gun The 75mm AA is a heavy tank killer Later on the Italian paratrooper squads are smg armed terrors in closed terrain. I noticed most early Italian scenario have lot of green level squads. Yea, I agree about tiny L3. I had been struggled to find way to stop Matida. I wonder if Italian had heard of ant-tank ditch. I would love to buy mines but it cost me victory points. I did find a way to stop however rather not said in open public. I wonder if Italian have their fort stationed then they could create anti-tank ditch if aware of it's effective. I am not sure if they have bulldozer or earth moving equipment that time. Thank you Xerxes! Also about Italian paratrooper, I had aware as I often used Finnish SMG squad as "Spider's trapdoor" tactic. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snow Leopard Posted February 13, 2004 Author Share Posted February 13, 2004 Originally posted by Hans: Snow Leopard, se siete interessati nei piani d'azione con gli italiani io abbia quanto segue in su al deposito del piano d'azione Thank you Hans for that informaiton, I will check Scenario depot for that stuff also check rest of scenario in CMAK and CMBB too. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karlis Posted March 17, 2004 Share Posted March 17, 2004 Holy cow! Going only by what I remembered from history books I managed to make the right purchases playing as the Italians against attacking the British on a small map, flat terrain, desert. I opted not to use tanks and instead went w/ the 75mm gun, 81mm mortars and fighter-bomber air support, along w/ infantry and machine guns. Not a single vehicle. So far I'm making out very well. That 75mm arty gun seems to be a crackshot against early British armor. Too bad the 75mm AA is a fixed gun. If I'm reading the above posts correctly, it sounds like the Italian tanks and vehicles don't compare favorably, especially later in the war. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kanonier Reichmann Posted March 18, 2004 Share Posted March 18, 2004 Originally posted by Snow Leopard: ...SNIP... I would love to buy mines but it cost me victory points. ...SNIP... Hi Snow Leopard. If you're refering to the bug in CMBB 1.03 where mines, wire etc. cost you casualty points when purchased, this problem was fixed with CMAK from all reports. Regards Jim R. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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