What is meant by the Region East Africa?

[Mark Gallear]

I think I know what is meant by North Africa and the battles that took place there, but I am not sure what is meant by East Africa and the battles that occured there :confused: .

I checked the manual it didn't help.

Another question is why were the Vichy French missed out? This removes the possibility of doing the first battle the US was involved in.

The Free French see to have brought a lot of stuff with them from Dunkirk and then shipped it to North Africa - did this really happen?

[Andreas]

East Africa - Abbessinia and Ethopia.

Vichy French - my guess is that these are also formations that went over to the Allies in the colonies, not just , or not even primarily, those returning from Dunkirk.

Here is an OOB of Commonwealth forces in East Africa Force, and if you manage to rummage around the site you may find more. Berlichtingen has done a lot of research on this.

East Africa Force

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Mark Gallear:

I think I know what is meant by North Africa and the battles that took place there, but I am not sure what is meant by East Africa and the battles that occured there :confused: .

While I can't guarantee that it is what BFC means by the term, usually it is taken to include Eritrea, Ethiopia, Djbouti (or French Somaliland as it was also called), British Somaliland, and Italian Somaliland. The entire region is commonly referred to as the Horn of Africa. During the fighting there, Sudan and Kenya were also involved as bases for the British. Sudan was briefly invaded a short distance by Italian forces.

Another question is why were the Vichy French missed out? This removes the possibility of doing the first battle the US was involved in.

ISTR that this was explained a month or two back in this forum, but I must admit the particulars have faded from my memory. Perhaps a search under "Vichy" might turn up the relevant thread.

The Free French see to have brought a lot of stuff with them from Dunkirk and then shipped it to North Africa - did this really happen?

Why from Dunkirk? I would assume that the French colonies and mandates were regularly supplied with arms from the homeland right along through the pre-war period and that this continued, though on a smaller scale, after the Vichy regime was established. The forces that went over to the Free French would have brought whatever they could with them.

Michael

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Andreas:

Vichy French - my guess is that these are also formations that went over to the Allies in the colonies, not just , or not even primarily, those returning from Dunkirk.

My understanding is that the vast majority of the French soldiers evacuated from Dunkirk were returned immediately to France...and from there quickly to German POW cages.

Michael

[Andreas]

Originally posted by Michael Emrys:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Andreas:

Vichy French - my guess is that these are also formations that went over to the Allies in the colonies, not just , or not even primarily, those returning from Dunkirk.

My understanding is that the vast majority of the French soldiers evacuated from Dunkirk were returned immediately to France...and from there quickly to German POW cages.

Michael </font>

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Andreas:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Michael Emrys:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Andreas:

Vichy French - my guess is that these are also formations that went over to the Allies in the colonies, not just , or not even primarily, those returning from Dunkirk.

My understanding is that the vast majority of the French soldiers evacuated from Dunkirk were returned immediately to France...and from there quickly to German POW cages.

Michael </font>

[Mark Gallear]

Thanks for the info on East Africa. I could not get Andreas's link to work though. Still not clear on any major actions in this area.

Didn't the fighting in North Africa start before December aganist the Italians? I have just read about an action between Bardia and Tobruck in July 1940.

Found no official reason on the forum for the lack of the Vichy French, just speculation by the players. My guess is not to annoy French customers?

[Andreas]

Edit because flu made me overlook something really important in Mark's post.

[ January 08, 2004, 11:27 AM: Message edited by: Andreas ]

[Thin Red Line]

I don't think french customers would be particularly annoyed by the presence of Vichy troops.

[Andreas]

DP

[exSpecForSgt]

Originally posted by Andreas:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Mark Gallear:

My guess is not to annoy French customers?

My (better informed) guess is, because of the research done by French beta-testers. </font>

[MikeyD]

I'm not that up on actions in East Africa, myself, but as to where it is -- just take a peek at the area map in the control strip when you've got a scenario up!

I do know Italy attacked Ethiopia in the 30s in an effort to get a colonial foothold in Africa (every other European power was doing the same at the time, even little Belgium!). When Italy declared war on Britain during the German Blitz that made its East African possession fair game. Plus their position were considered a threat to Brits and the Suez canal.

[Andreas]

Originally posted by exSpecForSgt:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Andreas:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Mark Gallear:

My guess is not to annoy French customers?

My (better informed) guess is, because of the research done by French beta-testers. </font>

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Andreas:

I believe you are talking about the battle to take control of Syria?

I think he has conflated the attempt to seize Dakar in September, 1940, where only token if any resistance was expected, and Syria in June, 1941, where the French were indeed expected to fight, though not as well nor as determinedly as they did.

The Dakar expedition turned back when the local commander of Vichy forces rejected the demand that he lay down his arms and fired on the ships of the expedition. I don't recall that any Free French troops were landed at all.

Michael

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Mark Gallear:

Didn't the fighting in North Africa start before December aganist the Italians? I have just read about an action between Bardia and Tobruck in July 1940.

Technically yes, though no major engagements were fought. There were border skirmishes involving small forces where the Italians came off distinctly second best. There was also a Commando raid or two, one against Bardia. And a squadron of the Royal Navy bombarded Tripoli. Sorry I don't have dates for all these at my fingertips, but I feel sure that they most if not all preceded Operation Compass.

Michael

[Mark Gallear]

Andreas

Yes, Syria and also the first US landings in North Africa brought them into conflict with the Vichy French. I would have thought they would have been modelled just for that. The Germans added the French tanks to their kit list anyway.

I quite like the idea of Free French and Vichy French going up against each other, sounds like a must do grand humdinger to me!

I would have thought these conflicts are more important than East Africa? Because I still cannot place a single major battle there. (But then I am stupid and am sure I am about to be proved wrong!) From your link I gather most of the troops here were either south African or "ethinic" Regiments. I can only think of Humprey Bogart saling his small ship down that river to blow up a large German gunboat or is that WW1?

I am thinking of placing the fact that North Africa does not go back to July 1940 on the errors and bugs thread! Ok the battles were small because the two sides are small but then CM does small skirmishes best. You could have the whole of the 11th Hussars in action!

Ok, it wasn't for commercial reasons that French "players" might be upset about being reminded about certain parts of WW2, what was the reason for the Vichy French being left out of the game then?

[ January 08, 2004, 03:29 PM: Message edited by: Mark Gallear ]

[Andreas]

Originally posted by Mark Gallear:

I quite like the idea of Free French and Vichy French going up against each other, sounds like a must do grand humdinger to me!

Dan was drooling at the thought of doing a scenario of that.

I don't know the reasons. I wouldn't tell you if I did, because of the NDA, but that does not even come into play here.

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Mark Gallear:

I would have thought these conflicts are more important than East Africa? Because I still cannot place a single major battle there.

I think at the time, there were larger forces engaged there than in the Western Desert.

From your link I gather most of the troops here were either south African or "ethinic" Regiments.

There was at least one Indian division and some British units as well.

I can only think of Humprey Bogart saling his small ship down that river to blow up a large German gunboat or is that WW1?

Wrong war and that lake was a few hundred miles south of Ethiopia as well.

Michael

[tar]

Besides, how on earth would you simulate =that= level of 'determination'? I mean, =reeeeeally=! How would you simulate troops who would rather die in place than to retreat even an inch, even if it was for a maneuver advantage?!

Crank up the fanatacism factor in the scenario editor!

[...................................]

Originally posted by Mark Gallear:

I would have thought these conflicts are more important than East Africa? Because I still cannot place a single major battle there.

Oooo, me sir me sir!

I had a book when I was much younger called something like "The 10 Most Decisive Battles of WW2". I wish I still had it, or could remember the author, but he placed the battle of Keren (East Africa, Eritrea, Jan-Apr '41) in the top 3, right up there with Stalingrad! Perhaps another member of this board has the book.

His reasoning was that unless the Commonwealth had managed to clear the Italians out of their bases in the mountains and on the coast, the Red Sea would be a virtual no go area for British shipping. Italian, and probably in due course German, air, light naval or submarine forces could have wreaked havoc on any large convoys sailing up the Red Sea unloading almost at Cairo.

They would have been sitting ducks in the narrow confines, leaving the British with a choice of sailing around further and unloading at Kuwait, and then driving right across Saudi Arabia to Egypt, a huge and insurmountable supply problem, or attempting to run convoys direct to Egypt via the length of a hostile Mediterranean, and we all know how messy that got.

He concluded that the free passage of the Red Sea in 1941 saved Egypt, and probably the whole British position in the Middle East. Thinking how close the see-saw battles in Egypt in 1941 were, FWIW I'd probably agree.

One day when I have won the lottery, I will have time to sit down and attempt to make a CMAK operation around Keren. The troops who did the bulk of the fighting were the 5th and later 4th Indian divisions, with South African and some additional British help. They had to attack fortified positions on the top of sheer barren mountains, while outnumbered by some of the very best and well led formations in the Italian Army (the Savoy Grenadiers amongst others). Think Monte Cassino but without any cover, or any decent firepower, being available to attack the mountain tops with, all in a blistering heat.

If the link works you should see a picture of Cameron Ridge, just one of many mountains to be cleared, obviously by the Camerons in this instance.

There is a very good website here with a lot of info on the East African battles and later if you are interested.

So I'm very happy that BFC have included this theater, because it gives us the chance to try fighting in a totally different type of terrain than the desert

[xerxes]

FYI, I have 2 east african battles (Gazelle Force & Retreat from Metemma) and one operation (Fort Gallabat) in production. An interesting little theatre where the carro armato is a fiercesome little tank! East Africa was a very impressive win for the British forces.

[Mick15]

A lot of vagueness about the Free French forces and their equipment. If you are prepared for an essay this might help :-

De Gaulle and 'Dunkirk Evacuees'

The moving force was of course de Gaulle who publicly broke with Weygand and his successor Petain's move to armistice with the Third Reich in a BBC broadcast at 6pm on 18th June 1940.

A military court, in France, sentenced de Gaulle - in absentia - to a months imprisonment later changed to one of death. Illustrating just what view the Vichy regime took.

De Gaulle was driven in the summer of 1940. He contacted all the French colonies governors -'proconsuls' - arguing rejection of the armistice. Only General Catroux of French Indo-China rallied to the cause.

De Gaulle also tried to visit all French units evacuated from Dunkirk. British authorities prevented visits to the large camps at Aintree and Haydock (Merseyside) but he did visit the Light Mountain Division at Trentham (Staffs) on 29th June. The majority of the troops refused to listen but he did get most of the 13th Legion half brigade (approx 2 battalions) several Chaussers Alpins and handfuls of other specialists (armour and artillery) all sans equipment. Apparently these were mostly from Alsace with a particular reason to be unhappy with another German occupation. They included the Alsatian Captain Marie-Pierre Koenig the, later, hero of Bir Hachiem.

With odds and sods (including all the able bodied men from the island of Sein and their fishing boats who arrived in Cornwall) by end of July de Gaulle, now de facto leader, had about 7000 under (a wide variety of small) arms. On 3d July our (British) attack on the Vichy fleet at Mers-el-Kebir killed 1000 French sailors and put a dent in de Gaulle's recruitment drive. Although on 23d June Westminster had declared that it did not consider Petain's regime independent and followed this with official recognition of de Gaulle on 28th June. By August agreement was finalised that saw General de Gaulle recognised as Supreme Commander of Free French Forces who would be financially supported by Britain (to be repaid at wars end) and operate under British High Command.

Free France vs. Vichy part 1 and vs. Italy

De Gaulle's primary strategic goal was a territorial base - 26 August 1940 in Chad Governor Felix Eboue and local military commander Col Marchand collaborated in declaring the colony for Free France. On the 27th Colonel Leclerc (also at Bir Hacheim) engineered a coup in Douala Cameroon and troops from Chad captured Brazaville, French Equatorial Africa. By October 1940 all of the French Central African colonies were firmly Free French and several Free French against Vichy actions had taken place albeit on small scale in Gabon. Attempts to move Free French control North by land were not practical (the Sahara) and an attempt by sea - the Anglo French Dakar expedition of 23d September was a fiasco. No Free French troops were landed.

In late 1940 a Free French battalion had participated well in O'Connor's offensive.

In December more Free French forces were moved east from Chad to participate in the Eritrean and Abyssinian campaigns against the Italians. The force was a Foreign Legion half brigade, a Senegalese battalion, a company of Marines and a squadron of tanks (sorry type not known but almost certainly French built). The commander was Colonel Monclar and he led an epic journey from Chad through the wastes of the Sudan to Khartoum and east to Abyssinia first going into action at Kub Kub on 20th February 1941. The force was joined by Spahis (colonial cavalry)who had followed their young commander Major Jourdier out of Syria the previous June.

This Free French force fought with distinction at Keren (This was the major battle in Eritrea) and captured 15000 Italian troops during the campaign. It became the basis of a Free French division under the command of General Lentilhomme.

Meanwhile Leclerc with legionnaires and colonial troops had invaded Southern Libya from Chad and defeated an Italian force at Kufra Oasis - later such an asset to the LRDG - on 1st March.

All of the above was accomplished by forces equipped with French uniforms and weapons and would provide a few good CMAK scenarios. It did not involve Dunkirk evacuees but did include a disproportionate number of Colonial and Foreign Legionnaires including many German political refugees - a fact perhaps not sufficiently well recognised in many French accounts.

Free France vs. Vichy part 2

As General Lentilhomme's Free French Division formed in the aftermath of the Eritrean campaign the arrival of Rommel March '41 and the losses in Greece and Crete changed the campaign in Libya and the Mediterranean. Luftwaffe aircraft could now reach Vichy Syria and use airbases their to interdict the strategically vital Suez canal. De Gaulle pressed for the invasion of Vichy Syria using the FF division and British/Dominion support. Initially British High Command wanted a commercial treaty and set up food and fuel supply to Syria and Lebanon. However in mid May German aircraft arrived in Vichy Syria and, with German aid, Rashid Ali instigated a rebellion against British forces in Iraq (plus ca change).

On 8th June British Dominion (Australian and Indian)and the Free French division invaded Syria. The operational command was Australian General Laverack. The Free French Division had 6000 infantry, eight guns, ten tanks and was supported by 24 aircraft. Organisation and vast majority of equipment was French establishment.

The Vichy forces under General Dentz (a committed vichyite)were 30000 well equipped also of course, French establishment and well supported by aircraft though mostly obsolete.

An armistice was concluded on 12 July at Gen Dentz' behest. He went to the British and the terms agreed infuriated de Gaulle and strained British/Free French relations.

Casualties on both sides were heavy 6000 Vichy and 4000 (mostly FF) allied. Gen Lentilhomme's opponent outside Damascus was Vichy Gen. de Verdilhac a close friends since their days as classmates at St-Cyr (the French Sandhurst/West Point). This and the fact that of the 30+ thousand French troops in Syria and Lebanon only 127 officers and under 6000 other ranks converted to Free France after the armistice shows how deeply divided loyalties were.

Again CMAK Free France vs. Vichy would be a possibility here if any modders are willing to provide the necessary troops.

There is more and I would be happy to continue - feel free to ask. Particularly re the First Free French Brigade at Bir Hacheim.

Best sources -

Bir Hakeim Felix de Grand'combef (Tresses Universitaires de France)

Mediterranean & Middle East Volumes 1 & 2 ISO Playfair (HMSO)

and for a good first hand account of Syria including being bombed by Vichy Martin bombers

The Road Past Mandalay John Masters new reprint - Cassell Military Paperbacks

[exSpecForSgt]

Originally posted by Mark Gallear:

I quite like the idea of Free French and Vichy French going up against each other, sounds like a must do grand humdinger to me!

You =want= to play one of those?! LOL I'd love to read the AAR, or watch two people do it, but I sure wouldn't want to play it myself. I can already imagine what a bloody, uncontrolable mess it could quite easily become, with =NO=one coming out the winner. Uhm, except, of course, the only true 'winner' in these sorts of things - the Being With The Scythe .. and I've had more than enough of =Him= in the mid-60s, thanks very much.

I can only think of Humprey Bogart sailing his small ship down that river to blow up a large German gunboat or is that WW1?

That was WWI and in what was then known as German East Africa, now known as Tanzania (& Rwanda & Uganda..I think..), but I can't remember which lake it was.

Ok, if it wasn't for commercial reasons that French "players" might be upset about being reminded about certain parts of WW2, what was the reason for the Vichy French being left out of the game then?

Good question - does anyone know the answer?

[exSpecForSgt]

Originally posted by Pheasant Plucker:

I had a book when I was much younger called something like "The 10 Most Decisive Battles of WW2".

I recall that one (but can't remember the exact title, either ). If you remember the exact title, please let me know, so I can try to find a copy at ABE Books (on-line).

...but [the autor] placed the battle of Keren in the top 3, right up there with Stalingrad!

=YES=!! I remember reading about that and just shrugging it off, at the time. (Hey, it was =many= years ago and I was -a- =lot= more foolish than I am now, okay? ) But =now= .. ohhh, yes, was the author ever =spot= =on=!

Think Monte Cassino but without any cover, or any decent firepower, being available to attack the mountain tops with, all in a blistering heat.

If the link works you should see a picture of Cameron Ridge, just one of many mountains to be cleared, obviously by the Camerons in this instance.

Yes, the link seems to work. All I can say is, geez!, that terraign looks worse than some of the 'hills' in Korea .. and that place is no damn fun, either! Yuckers!

Thanks for the 'thumbnail' of the battle & why it was important, and the picture & reference site.

[exSpecForSgt]

Originally posted by Mick15:

If you are prepared for an essay this might help :-

Thank you =very= much, Mick15! This is just the sort of 'essay' I enjoy reading. Gives some very nice 'back-story' to some of the things we do in CM. (Answers the 'why the hell are we here, Sarge?' questions I often 'hear' in my head. I don't know about the rest of you, but when I play CM, those are 'real people', not just "numbers" or "markers" or any other sort of 'gaming' ways of looking at what's being done. Yes, CM is a game, but consider, please, what it is you're 'simulating'. Uh-huh, exactly - and would you be as 'cavalier' about losing 'men' as a certain drunken Texan if =you= had to write the letters home for every 'man' you lost? Puts a whole new 'spin' on the game, doesn't it? )

...the fact that of the 30+ thousand French troops in Syria and Lebanon only 127 officers and under 6000 other ranks converted to Free France after the armistice shows how deeply divided loyalties were.

I have an older friend who is French =and= spent several years in the Legion Etranger. =To= =this= =day=, he can not say or refer to Vichy (as in the pseudo-government of France, not the town, which is rather lovely) without spitting! When I asked him once =why= de Gaul made a point in one of his speeches as president of France to say that they had all helped win the war and it was now time to put it behind .. my friend looked embarrassed, looked at the floor, shrugged in a very gaulic way, and said, "well, it needed to be =said= .. or there would continue to be unceasing trouble in parliament and mysterious 'accidents' in the countryside." And that was =many= years after the war had (officially) ended.....

There is more and I would be happy to continue - feel free to ask.

Okay, =I'm= asking .. but you can send it to me 'on the side' if no one else is interested.