US Infantry Company 1:1

[Wartgamer]

Here is the actual 1:1 TOE for a US Infantry Company during 1944.

So how will the company be represented 1:1? How can it be 'fireteamed'? I am making assumptions on the previously released info that:

1. 1:1 will be everybody.

2. Fireteams will be a feature

The Company HQ section might be 'fireteamed' to a actual CO with only one or two others. A RO man and a senior NCO.

Another 'Company HQ' fireteam may be a small fighting team led by a another NCO. A further 'fireteam' may be the cooks and others who are part of the company. Whether these are actually represented 1:1 in some situations could be debatable. In a defensive situation, they may actually be in the area of operations. In many meeting engagements, I would think they would be off map.

[ March 14, 2005, 09:56 AM: Message edited by: Wartgamer ]

[YankeeDog]

Yeah, Where's the Company Bugler?

And I'll be RIPPED if CMX2 doesn't properly model the additional hash-slinging ability provided by the TWO Asst. Cooks in the US Inf. Coy TOE.

BTS, fix er do sumfink!!

But it is noteworthy that, "one rifleman per platoon was designated sniper." I've seen that in other sources as well. Seems like US Inf. Platoons really should have an organic sharpshooter. I can see why BFC excluded this for CMX1, what with the Borg spotting problems lot 'o organic sharpshooters running around would create, but if they get Borg Spotting fixed, then arguably the organic sharpshooters should also be in.

Cheers,

YD

[Battlefront.com]

1:1 representation allows us to do a 1:1 organizational representation. A Platoon HQ, for example, would have 5 men, a Rifle Squad 12 men. Simple as that. Squads are internally subdivided depending on what the doctrine called for at the time. In this case I beleive it is a Fire Team of 9 men and another with the BAR.

Steve

[Wartgamer]

The designated 'sniper' seems to be an actual rifleman and would be part of a fireteam and not an independant 'unit'. Much like a bazooka can be part of the fireteam concept.

[Wartgamer]

The Company HQ is actually larger than I thought. Its 2 Offs and 33 EM. While many are clerk, cook, potato-peelers, there are still many bodies that might be modeled for combat situations.

17 basic soldiers are listed. Are these all ammo carriers? Stretcher men?

13 men across the whole company are messengers.

[RMC]

Looking at the chart, the only questions I really have about how 1:1 representation of the soldiers will work are about the messengers.

I tend to think there is no need to include them, but if BTS is sticking to 1:1 representation of soldiers in the battlespace then they pretty much have to be. Which leads to command and control, FOW and targeting issues. Does the new C2 model incorporate the movement of runners into the command delay? When or how does a player get to learn that the messenger never made it? Does the enemy get to target the lone ranger running about the battlefield since he gamingly knows that there are only two kinds of loners in CMx2, messengers and sharpshooters? Say the messenger does get "rendered lost for the duration of the scenario." Does the player get to split out another guy to fill the niche?

The drivers, cooks, armorer, supply sergeant, mess sergeant, clerk, bugler, cook's helpers and those 17 basic soldiers do not belong in the game unless we are putting the trains on the map.

[YankeeDog]

Originally posted by Wartgamer:

The designated 'sniper' seems to be an actual rifleman and would be part of a fireteam and not an independant 'unit'. Much like a bazooka can be part of the fireteam concept.

Not exactly. If you read US platoon-level tactical manuals from the period, you'll find that that platoon "sniper" or "sharphooter" was basically the platoon scout. He frequently acted independently of any other squads or fireteams or squads in the platoon, although he was still definitely a integral part of the platoon.

In MTC drill, he was often on point for the platoon, scouting ahead.

On defense, he often served as a lookout from a high position like a rooftop or church spire or whatever.

And of course, he used his scoped rifle when and where high-value targets developed.

One interesting little tidbit I picked up from the first-person account of one of these platoon scouts is that they were often equipped with tracer ammo, so they could mark enemy positions they spotted. Apparently, said scout didn't like this much, and ended up getting rid of the tracer ammo b/c of the old truism "tracers work both ways" -- every time he fired of a tracer round, the Germans would send all sort of crap his way.

What the plt. organic Scouts/Snipers/Sharpshooters did not do is independent, deep-penetration sniper-type missions. From what I've read, they stayed on a pretty short leash, scouting or observing for their specific platoon, and rarely going out shouting or hand-signal range of same.

Cheers,

YD

[Wartgamer]

Yes and that is why I mentioned that he is analogous to the new 'attached' feature, like a bazooka team can be part of a squad, that is being slated.

So the sniper should be a detachable 'semi-independant' unit is what you are saying (short leash)? He may not have full independant status. Others may not join him, etc. What benefits being attached has not been discussed I believe.

One of the things missing are the bazookas. There should be 9 of them. Are these doled out as a weapon? That is, no dedicated crews?

[John D Salt]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

Squads are internally subdivided depending on what the doctrine called for at the time. In this case I beleive it is a Fire Team of 9 men and another with the BAR.

Oooh, please, let's have the proper doctrinal division into Able, Baker and Charlie teams.

And the proper doctrinal dashing of the squad leader between one team and another in the middle of a firefight.

All the best,

John.

[Battlefront.com]

RMC is correct that the 1:1 simulation does mean some interesting situations regarding non-combat type positions within units or for untis as a whole. "Rear" type units, those which are used purely for administrative/suppor purposes, will be excluded as a rule. There might be some exceptional circumstances that might make the inclusion of these "rear" units interesting (like rescuing/protecting rear units).

Steve

[dalem]

Steve-

I hope this means that my U.S. Armored Infantry platoons finally get their one bazooka per halftrack!

Brings up another topic - "portage" costs. Will 1:1 allow you to set raw numbers for capacity of vehicles? i.e. something like "A Sherman can carry 10 'man-equivalents' and a Stuart 6, with an aircooled .30 = 1 man-equivalent, and a watercooled .30 = 2 man-equivalents"?

Something like that?

-dale

[Battlefront.com]

As stated in other 1:1 threads, internal division of Squads will be according to specific national doctrin. If one nation has a 3 team Squad, we'll be able to simulate that as well as a more typical 2 team squad.

Steve

[Battlefront.com]

Dale,

Yes, 1:1 fixes a whole mess of problems we had to work around in CMx1. Integrated AT weapons (Bazookas, ATRs, Schecks, etc.) is one of the things that I personally am most happy to see fixed. In CMx1 we had to abstract how these were used, in CMx2 we can do it with complete accuracy.

Portage costs are also possible now because transport space will be based on physical space instead of x number of units of y type.

Steve

[YankeeDog]

Yeah -- you got the TOE off the 100th Infantry Div site, yes? As you note, 9 Zooks per Company on the battalion TOE, but does not mention the zooks anywhere at the Company level or below.

Based on what I've read elsewhere, this is accurate. I frequently read accounts of soldiers "being assigned" a zook for a given mission or period of time, which implies that there was no official position of "platoon rocketeer" or anything like that.

Also noteworthy that zooks show up all over the place elsewhere in the TOEs -- 8 w/ the Bn HQ Coy, etc. Apparently, by 1944, anyway, there were alot of 'em around.

I do agree that some kind of "semi-independent" status would be most realisitc for units like sharpshooters and zooks.

Cheers,

YD

[Wartgamer]

The Company HQ may actually be broken up into three groups.

1. One is the actual CO, Senior NCO and runners/commo(mobile wireless). It may be 4-6 people actually.

2. The other main group is the XO led group who represent the actual static HQ position. The nerve center setup.

3. The remaining group is the Cook NCO and Cooks plus Armorer/Ammo people and all assorted pots/pans/ammo-dump/spare parts plus vehicle park. This is typically further back but not always off map given the size of the maps.

CMX1 ignores actual 'Headquarters' (the place) in that the physical location of this actual frontline unit's location is NOT the same as the Company/Battalion HQ units that are dipicted. The CO could be in the Headquarters 'billet' (bunker typically) or he could be out and about. In his absense, the XO (top LT.) is running the show.

The static HQ position is the placement of much of the commo in that landline wire communications from Battalion and above connect to this spot. Large wireless radios are 'benched' here. Much of the tactical maps, photos are 'tabled' here.

Its a battlefield reality.

[ March 14, 2005, 11:56 AM: Message edited by: Wartgamer ]

[Wartgamer]

Another US division website mentions 330+ zooks in a division. many accounts tell of everyone getting imprompto training on them. Including the cooks.

Yes heres the 100th website just click on a military symbol (Note: Even the field artillery battalions had zooks)

http://www.100thww2.org/100org/100org.html

[ March 14, 2005, 11:03 AM: Message edited by: Wartgamer ]

[Pak40]

I assume this also means that an officer can get killed without having to eliminate the entire HQ section. If so, how will command and control be handled if the CO of a platoon is killed? The Platoon seargent would typically take over command but will some C&C penalties apply?

[Wartgamer]

If a platoon LT got taken out, the Company CO could send the XO to take over. The Company Commander would then be more or less restricted to commanding from the actual Headquarters location.

In many cases, the senior NCO of the platoon would take over. The Company CO might also send the Senior Company NCO down to that platoon if he thought that situation was critical or the platoon NCO was not up to platoon command.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Wartgamer:

If a platoon LT got taken out, the Company CO could send the XO to take over. The Company Commander would then be more or less restricted to commanding from the actual Headquarters location.

In many cases, the senior NCO of the platoon would take over. The Company CO might also send the Senior Company NCO down to that platoon if he thought that situation was critical or the platoon NCO was not up to platoon command.

The Company 1st Sergeant would also be a likely candidate to lead a platoon; we saw this in Band of Brothers if you want a cinematic example. In the Commonwealth and German armies, it was not unusual for the Company Sergeant Major or the Hauptfeldwebel to take over a platoon in an emergency.

[Wartgamer]

The Company First Sgt ('Top') is the senior Company NCO. Sgt Major is a much higher US NCO.

[ March 14, 2005, 12:35 PM: Message edited by: Wartgamer ]

[dalem]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

Dale,

Yes, 1:1 fixes a whole mess of problems we had to work around in CMx1. Integrated AT weapons (Bazookas, ATRs, Schecks, etc.) is one of the things that I personally am most happy to see fixed. In CMx1 we had to abstract how these were used, in CMx2 we can do it with complete accuracy.

Portage costs are also possible now because transport space will be based on physical space instead of x number of units of y type.

Steve

Awesome. I am still sooooooooooooooooooooo inside your head!

-dale

[Wartgamer]

Perhaps cover might also be abstracted when on a tank.

If you have ever seen photos of tanks with maxxed out numbers of infantry getting a ride, its apparent they are pretty vulnerable.

In contrast to that, when just a few are on the back, laying down and taking cover, they would be much better protected. They are smaller targets and the bulk of the turret acts as a wall.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Wartgamer:

The Company First Sgt ('Top') is the senior Company NCO. Sgt Major is a much higher US NCO.

I'm quite aware of that, thanks. Reread my post.

[Wartgamer]

I don't really care what you are aware of, I am just pointing out that this is discussing the US Infantry Company and someone might get confused if you mention a Company Sgt. Major.

I am sure under combat all units lose leaders and they get replaced in similar ways.

If you read the post that I first posted, and then you quoted, then you might just realize you repeated what I said.

[ March 14, 2005, 01:51 PM: Message edited by: Wartgamer ]

[aka_tom_w]

Maybe its because I am not a grog (really

Where are the heavy HMG's?

Where is the .50 cal HMG team?

Maybe this "kind" of company did not have Bazooka's or HMG's?

Just curious

thanks

-tom w