I need a editor for vehicles and guns

[hgy]

Hello,

first of all, I need a program to edit the gun penetration values of the game.

I have been playing this CM series since the CMBO. However, I always had to stop playing them because of the bad arranged gun penetration values.

and finally after I got and tried playing the CMAK two times, I decided to write this topic in the forums.

I request a editor to change the gun penetration values.

With these ridiculous values the game becomes "lets get the americans and kill some tigers"....

I also read a lot in the forums and suprised that almost no one complain about these values. If those values had some reality I do not think that americans or UKs had to developpe more powerful tanks after sherman...

Or if those values had some reality again, the Tiger or Panther tanks would never become so fearsome among american or english army soldiers.

What are the sources(references) are used in the game? Did the makers examine the german sources as well? The allied side seemed extremely favored to me in every CM game.

For exemple, that american 37mm gun, it is able to penetrate 88mm of armor in 100 meters.... this can not be

and the german 50mmL60 gun is able to penetrate 106(maybe 108, I do not remember now) at 100 meters in the game.

a 37mm gun's ammo is as long as a man's hand, but a 50 mm gun's ammo is as long as a man's arm in reality. So do you believe that a 37mm can compte with a 50mm gun in armor penetration case... I think it can not.

But in CMAK, it does.

And also the tungsten core ammos of every gun are made extremely powerful.

that 50L60 gun has a 164mm penetration value at 100 meters with tungsten ammo!!

So, if that gun's penetration values were so powerful with both normal and tungsten ammos, why germans abandon producing Pz3s? They might be a cheap match to Shermans with 89mm front armor.

What are your thoughts??

I want a much more realistic game... the CM is one of the greatest games I have ever seen, but just because of this ridiculous armor penetrations, I could not play it, I could not stand playing unrealistic games.

even you aggree or disaggree my thoughts, I still request a program to edit those values in order to make the game as I want, and again able to play it as I can like.

[DEY]

Battlefront has not made public any of it's coding for combat mission so there will never be any kind of program such as you request, unless BFC makes such a thing.

There has been many dicussions on ammo type penetrations on these forums, try the search feature.

I have to agree with you somewhat, there does seem to be something somewhat skewed and leaning in favour of the anglo-american forces in cmbo and somewhat in cmak.

I know one of the reasons I stopped playing BO was becuase the germans just didn't seem to have a chance at all unless they where equipped with KT's or Jagdpanthers, everthing else just seemed to be cannon fodder for the allied tank guns.

But that seemed to be as much due to lackluster performance of the german tank crews in cmbo as much as of the ammo penetrations.

I also have read what may be a bit of confusion on the penetration ablitly of the American 37mm gun, from what I've seen is that if the L53 m2 37mm gun was equipped with something called a " British Little John squeeze bore attachment" it could with A.P.S.V ammo penetrate 97mm at 100 yards.

Maybe if someone has some info on this they could post it.

The Germans only had so much titanium on hand and when they started to get pushed out of the soviet union they lost that raw material, so tungsten ammo starts to get quite scarce starting in 1944.

[Thin Red Line]

Who would take the risk to engage a Panther in a 100m close combat anyway ?

Keep the big cats at long distance, you'll notice their superiority in the long range fight.

[Sergei]

Originally posted by DEY:

The Germans only had so much titanium on hand and when they started to get pushed out of the soviet union they lost that raw material, so tungsten ammo starts to get quite scarce starting in 1944.

Is titanium somehow needed in making tungsten (wolfram)? Isn't it an element?

[DEY]

The Germans only had so much titanium on hand and when they started to get pushed out of the soviet union they lost that raw material, so tungsten ammo starts to get quite scarce starting in 1944.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Is titanium somehow needed in making tungsten (wolfram)? Isn't it an element?

Ah ya, that appears to be misinformantion on my part though I have read quite a few times where titanium and tungsten seem to be very interwine, because of that I had thought maybe that a inner core was titanium. Also that the soviet union had a lot to do with german amount of tungsten ammo, maybe this wolfram element is very common in the soviet union, I know most of the worlds titanium is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tungsten

Here is somemore info on this little john attachment.

The US Locust airborne tank used the Little John attachment to extend the useful life of its already obsolete 37 mm gun. Locust tanks were deployed in the Rhine crossings and before.

Quoted from here,

http://miniatures.de/html/int/shells-american.html

Though the below link only comments on the brits using this device.

http://www.robertsarmory.com/m22.htm

[birdstrike]

It's unlikely there will ever be an editor to change the units' stats. And it wouldn't be all to good for PBEMs and such, I reckon.

As for the "high" penetration values, I recommend playing the allied side sometimes.

I have repeatedly seen whole platoons of Shermans brewed up by a single German Tiger or Panther, without the Shermans so much as scratching the paint of the cats.

I had a Sherman fire several times at Tiger from less than 100 meters, without penetration.

I have seen shots of M10s and Fireflies bouncing off all kinds of German tanks.

[Earl Grey]

I actually never encountered that problem. Agreed, my Tigers usually didn´t make it through a battle in Bo - but only because a half-dozen Firefly´s or Churchill´s were shooting them to crap. THough I have won the 'Death of the Titans' scenario in AK vs. the AI and in BO vs. a human player. And usually my PAnthers beat the crao out of just about every US/UK tank there is in the battles I've played so far...

[John D Salt]

Originally posted by hgy:

Hello,

first of all, I need a program to edit the gun penetration values of the game.

I have been playing this CM series since the CMBO. However, I always had to stop playing them because of the bad arranged gun penetration values.

Since I collect WW2 gun penetration perfrmance data, I have to ask where you think you will get values better than those in CM.

I've been playing wargames since 1971, and have never yet found a game, board, minatures or computer, that does a better job of modelling armour penetration than the CM series. That's not to say it's perfect, and as DEY has pointed out it has caused its share of argument on this forum in the past. But if you know of any game that does a better job, I'm all agog to hear about it.

Originally posted by hgy:

and finally after I got and tried playing the CMAK two times, I decided to write this topic in the forums.

I request a editor to change the gun penetration values.

AIUI the CM engine doesn't use "values" in the sense of a look-up table. If you wanted to change the armour penetration capabilities of guns, you'd need to change the penetration model, or at least its major parameters, in the game code. It would be nice to be able to fiddle with such a thing, but I doubt it will be happening any time soon.

Originally posted by hgy:

With these ridiculous values the game becomes "lets get the americans and kill some tigers"....

I also read a lot in the forums and suprised that almost no one complain about these values. If those values had some reality I do not think that americans or UKs had to developpe more powerful tanks after sherman...

As it turned out, they didn't have to, did they? The war would have been won just as handily if the Comet and Pershing had never been developed. German tactical success did not depend on having tanks with bigger guns and thicker armour than their adversaries -- by the time Tiger and Panther had appeared, they were on the certain road to defeat, and at the times of their greatest tactical successes, German armour was inferior in firepower and protection to their enemies' armour.

Learning to play CM well can help people to understand some of the reasons why these things were so, and what things matter in the tactical battle apart from big guns and thick armour.

Now, as to specifics about the US 37mm, I agree that 88mm at 100 metres and normal impact seems a bit high -- indeed all the normal impact figures seem higher than I would expect from the 30-degree figures, indicating that someone is using a different armour basis curve from any of the ones I've seen.

Still, let's look at the 30 degree figures, as this is the impact angle one normally gets from historical sources. I know of 14 sources for penetration data on this gun, and I consider R. P. Hunnicutt's books, in this case the one on the Sherman, to be the most believable and authoritative of those I know.

How do the CM:AK figures compare to Hunnicutt's for the 37mm M6 firing APC M51 against homogenous armour at 30 degrees? We'll ignore the difference between yards (Hunnicutt) and metres (CM:AK) for the moment.

Range_____CM:AK_____Hunnicutt

500________56__________53

1000_______46__________46

2000_______31__________35

That's pretty good agreement, in my book.

Originally posted by hgy:

Or if those values had some reality again, the Tiger or Panther tanks would never become so fearsome among american or english army soldiers.

You've had a great deal of success fighting Tigers and Panthers with Shermans in CM, have you?

Originally posted by hgy:

What are the sources(references) are used in the game? Did the makers examine the german sources as well? The allied side seemed extremely favored to me in every CM game.

Most of the complaints I can recall about penetration figures in CM were about it favouring the Germans too much. If it's catching flak from both sides, I s'pose it must be about right.

Originally posted by hgy:

And also the tungsten core ammos of every gun are made extremely powerful.

Just as they were in reality.

Originally posted by hgy:

that 50L60 gun has a 164mm penetration value at 100 meters with tungsten ammo!!

So, if that gun's penetration values were so powerful with both normal and tungsten ammos, why germans abandon producing Pz3s? They might be a cheap match to Shermans with 89mm front armor.

Apart from the tugsten shortage, already mentioned, the PzGr40 round for the 5cm KwK was normally good for one shot only, according to Jentz in his excellent "Panzertruppen". The designers' stuffing the cartridge case with bucketloads of propellant to produce screaming armour-piercing performance is all very well -- and all the figures I've ever seen show the 5cm PzGr40 giving an exceptionally high proportional increase in piercing power -- but it bulged the cartridge case and left it stuck in the breech.

All the best,

John.

[ October 17, 2005, 11:14 AM: Message edited by: John D Salt ]

[MikeyD]

I believe a Russian anti-tank rifle will do just about 40mm ( zero degrees angle) penetration at 100m so a solid shot 37mm at 100m should do considerably better.

The thing is, things often 'seem' skewed in CM because the maps are usually designed for pretty much point-blank engagement (you scoot around a building to get a flank shot on a Tiger coming down the alley). If you were to extend combat ranges to 8-900m+ the advantage would fall strongly in favor of the Germans. Normal combat ranges in N.W. Europe, from anecdotes, appear to mostly fall somewhere inbetween, around 600m - which coincidentally is just about the range a Sherman's 76mm gun *might* pierce a Panther and a 75mm gun *might* pierce a Stug.