engineers and pioneers whats the difference

[dog of war]

saw a unit in the game the other day that had pioneers and engineers ,always thought they carried out the same tasks in the game

so could some one tell me what the difference is and while you are at it ,please include sappers in the topic

[Kingfish]

Engineers drive trains, while Pioneers drive covered wagons.

[Richie]

I guess that means that the 'sappers' are the people who collect the rubber from rubber trees then...

[37mm]

I believe it is a First World War thing... I think Engineers were meant to be used for specialized tasks (say bridge building or building a concrete dug out) whilst Pioneers were meant to be used for 'light' engineering tasks (say digging a communication trench).

In CM there is no difference.

A Sapper is just a rank of Engineers (equivalent to a private) whilst a sap is a trench, dug out from your main trench, heading towards the castle/enemy trenches.

[Michael Dorosh]

Engineers are organized at the divisional level in the Commonwealth into Field Squadrons and other specialized groups such as bridging platoons, for construction, bridge building, mine clearance, and other duties including assault operations - flamethrowing and breaching obstacles, etc. They belonged directly to the Corps of Royal Engineers (or Corps of Royal Canadian Engineers) and were badged as such. As Sir37mm points out, a private of engineers was called a "Sapper". It was purely a ceremonial title, as 37 points out, based on the way they were traditionally employed dating back to antiquity and the days of siege warfare.

There are also engineers as part of corps troops, army troops, Line of Communication troops, etc., that do a wide array of jobs along similar lines, but organized into different types of units and not used for combat.

Pioneers, on the other hand, are organized at the battalion level and are a dedicated battalion asset. They do the same kind of tasks as divisional engineers at a lower level and belong directly to the battalion commander. They are generally trained infantrymen with additional training in the pioneer specialty; and are badged the same as the infantry regiment to which they belong. They do not carry the title "Sapper", and members of the pioneer platoon may be cross posted in and out of that platoon as needed, for example, as a replacement rifleman, or to fill a quartermaster sergeant position, etc. In the Canadian Army (probably the British as well) they have some interesting traditions such as being the only infantrymen permitted to grow beards (outside of those with medical reasons). In peacetime, they wear aprons and carry axes on ceremonial parades.

I don't know where the term Pioneer comes from; interestingly, the German term is Pionier so it enjoys a wider history than just the British Army and its descendants.

[ February 03, 2007, 08:37 AM: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ]

[JasonC]

This is largely a translation issue. In Russia and Germany, there aren't any "engineers", they are all "pioneers". In the US army, there aren't any "pioneers", there are only "engineers". Only the Brits used both terms. They can for all practical purposes be considered synonymous.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by JasonC:

This is largely a translation issue. In Russia and Germany, there aren't any "engineers", they are all "pioneers". In the US army, there aren't any "pioneers", there are only "engineers". Only the Brits used both terms. They can for all practical purposes be considered synonymous.

With respect - the two terms are not synonymous, for the reasons I just outlined in my post. A divisional engineer was never called a pioneer, and a battalion pioneer is not correctly known as an engineer. Purely technically, of course, given the often identical functions they performed. But refusing to draw pointless distinctions based on traditions is anathema in the Commonwealth. Seeing a guy with a beard and an axe on parade - you know instantly he is a pioneer and not an engineer. FWIW.

[37mm]

Well after a bit of googling it seems there was definitely a Pioneer Corp formed in 1917... only to be then disbanded again in 1919.

They must've thought that there were some differences... at least for awhile

[birdstrike]

Pioneer -

from Middle French 'pionier', from Old French 'peonier' or 'peon' (both foot soldier), from Medieval Latin pedon-, pedo (foot-whatever )