Explain this....

[JasonC]

On intervening ground, units are not height zero. The LOS line is drawn from their base, but it doesn't mean they are in flatland. The way LOS over an intervening height works, depends on the distance between the height and the nearer of the two units to that height. If they are right next to it - within one tile - then they can see over a one level obstruction, basically. If there is a full tile between both ends and the intervening height, and it is higher than both, it will block LOS (they aren't next to and looking over it).

[jbertles]

Originally posted by civdiv:

________

Anyway, just as the two squads assaulted, a half platoon of German reinforcements appeared litterally 5 meters from the two squads. The squads made short work of the reinforcements, but it kept them from assaulting the buttoned HT, that promptly slaughtered them. Maybe CM should show off board sound contacts to let you know something is about to appear? But that is definately a contributing factor in the HT causing 24 casualties.

_______

Reinforcements materializing like that are a sign of sloppy scenario design, not bad game mechanics.

[civdiv]

Originally posted by Wicky:

@civdiv - Quick question to clarify: What FOW setting are your playing on?

Edit: Sorry Dave S not to you - yours is like a fluke winning Euro lottery or rather not winning the jackpot after buying 176 million tickets or sumfink

From the pics the soldiers were presumably standing when they were legitimately spotted behind the small rise on the edge of the woods. The 'targeting' line has a small linger time even when the target drops out of LOS and was that when you took the screenie?

If I were in that situation I'd either immediately 'hide' the crunchies, to try and maintain a break in contact, and give them a sneak order deeper into cover, or aternatively issue a withdraw order again deeper into cover

Full FOW and the guys were sneaking when they were spotted.

[civdiv]

Originally posted by junk2drive:

civdiv I had the opposite happen with a unit (PB?) below a ridge. As my troops moved above the ridge they were hit and went to ground. I had no LOS to the unit but it continued to fire at the troops.

Remember that we see three solidier icons but the game sees 10-12 men spread out in a "footprint".

I already answered it but I should have put it in the original post, but it seemed clear to me. The guys were sneaking. And yes, I understand about the 'footprint', but regardless of where they were in the square, they were behind the finger.

Sorry to not have been clear originally.

[civdiv]

Originally posted by jbertles:

Originally posted by civdiv:

________

Anyway, just as the two squads assaulted, a half platoon of German reinforcements appeared litterally 5 meters from the two squads. The squads made short work of the reinforcements, but it kept them from assaulting the buttoned HT, that promptly slaughtered them. Maybe CM should show off board sound contacts to let you know something is about to appear? But that is definately a contributing factor in the HT causing 24 casualties.

_______

Reinforcements materializing like that are a sign of sloppy scenario design, not bad game mechanics.

Airborne scenario with stuff scattered on the map (really along two edges). When you throw in the small size of the map (About a company and a half versus a company), plus my flanking maneuvers, I've worked down about 65% of the map edges, so it's tough to avoid.

[civdiv]

Originally posted by civdiv:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by junk2drive:

civdiv I had the opposite happen with a unit (PB?) below a ridge. As my troops moved above the ridge they were hit and went to ground. I had no LOS to the unit but it continued to fire at the troops.

Remember that we see three solidier icons but the game sees 10-12 men spread out in a "footprint".

I already answered it but I should have put it in the original post, but it seemed clear to me. The guys were sneaking. And yes, I understand about the 'footprint', but regardless of where they were in the square, they were behind the finger.

Sorry to not have been clear originally. </font>

[junk2drive]

Wait until the dice rolls happen to go against you...

[JasonC]

civdiv - Halftrack MGs are not one inch off the ground. Grow up and stop moaning, you sound like a spoiled brat.

[civdiv]

Originally posted by JasonC:

civdiv - Halftrack MGs are not one inch off the ground. Grow up and stop moaning, you sound like a spoiled brat.

!?!?

I am trying to understand the mechanics of this game and you are calling me a spoiled brat?

I don't give a rat's you-know-what if the MG is mounted on the top of the gunner's helmet, he can't see them. Ok, now I understand why, your explanation was good. But I am a spoiled brat for what, asking why the AI is shooting through terra firma?

No, don't answer that, this is going nowhere good.

[civdiv]

Originally posted by Other Means:

Estimate the distance from the edge of the woods to the HT. Add 10m. MTC with a cover arc set to this value towards the HT HT through the woods. Keep the HT buttoned with fire = probably a dead HT. Probably.

You're best having him stop before the end of the minute as close to the HT as possible without leaving cover and without firing. Then fire for the full minute the next turn.

A PIATs max accurate range is ~40m, or at least that's what I play to. It looks to me like you're trying to fire 93m through trees - would you do that in real life?

I've never seen LOS through the ground. There's issues with woods etc but you learn that 1 10*10m "tile" can probably be seen through but any more than that no.

Scattered trees can go out to 25 or so. Just guesses, find your own values.

You only assault when you know there's no one with a full loaded machine gun waiting for you.

Find, fix, flank, finish.

Find the enemy.

Fix them in position with fire - get their heads down.

Flank - get to a positon you can fire past their cover, generally at some angle to there current facing.

Finish. Kill them. Generally with bullets but the final holdouts can be cleared with grenades.

Not find - charge.

One of the best things to me in CM is seeing these small scale firefights and how you can take some cover to flank a position, and then use that position falling to get leverage on more positions until the line is broken. But it's all done with fire, not bodies.

Other means, sticky, flaming, and anyone else who suggested it,

Great suggestion. I'll try the MTC with the covered arc next time I play. That will be scenario four of Sie Kommen, a FANTASTIC series/mod.

[ February 03, 2006, 04:48 PM: Message edited by: civdiv ]

[JasonC]

"Great...maybe I need some time away from this game."

No, you need an attitude adjustment stat. Your are a bitchy child trying to disagree with the game instead of learning its mechanics. You ask for explanations and when you get them whine about what else didn't work that you feel entitled to. Stuff it in your other ear. You want to learn this game and to ask those of us who know it questions? Then drop the know it all pose. You are the student, jackass.

[BulletRat]

JasonC you may know a fair bit about the game but maybe you should work on your people skills a little more. As fas as I can see civdiv was asking a legitimate question - maybe a little frustrated and confused with the way the game works - hence the "attitude" appearance.

Relax mate, take 5 mins out sheesh.

Civdiv, play the game a bit more - just as a learning experience and be prepared to lose guys even where you don't think you will. You'll soon get an idea of what can and can't be done in the game - experiment a little, remember of course that if that HT was yours and the squad was a bunch of krauts I'm pretty sure you'd be happy you could see them!

So don't give up on the game mate, it's the best WWII strat game bar-none that I have found yet - I'm far from the best player around and I've been playing CMBB since it came out, but every time I load up a map I usually learn a little more by the time the map is done.

So don't take a loss personally, it's just the way the battle pans out sometimes.

Hope that helps.

[civdiv]

Originally posted by BulletRat:

JasonC you may know a fair bit about the game but maybe you should work on your people skills a little more. As fas as I can see civdiv was asking a legitimate question - maybe a little frustrated and confused with the way the game works - hence the "attitude" appearance.

Relax mate, take 5 mins out sheesh.

Civdiv, play the game a bit more - just as a learning experience and be prepared to lose guys even where you don't think you will. You'll soon get an idea of what can and can't be done in the game - experiment a little, remember of course that if that HT was yours and the squad was a bunch of krauts I'm pretty sure you'd be happy you could see them!

So don't give up on the game mate, it's the best WWII strat game bar-none that I have found yet - I'm far from the best player around and I've been playing CMBB since it came out, but every time I load up a map I usually learn a little more by the time the map is done.

So don't take a loss personally, it's just the way the battle pans out sometimes.

Hope that helps.

Oh, I wasn't talking about giving it up, just taking a break from it. I think you can see from the number of questions I have asked, and the time I have taken to provide screen shots and the like, I have tried to really get into the game. I have no thoughts of giving it up, but I was getting a bit frustrated.

And Take Command is now loaded and patched.

[JasonC]

BR - I've answered all of his legitimate questions, in places at great length, 8 posts in the last week some of them pages long. I had to repeat myself twice on LOS and elevations and got bitching for my trouble. I'm not the one who managed to piss off someone going way out of his way to be helpful within a week of meeting him. Somebody else needs to work on appreciation skills. I don't put up with it.

[BulletRat]

Easily fixed. Don't reply.

[Other Means]

Gentlemen, you can't fight in here, this is the war room!

civdev, If you've got the turn saved I'd play it back over and over until you repeatedly get the result you need. There's a lot to learn in this game and it's best in small chunks.

JasonC has been very helpful AFAICS. But he's a cantankerous old coot.

I like that about him. Even when I want to kill him.

[Grimly Fiendish]

I may be risking a spanking myself, but I am really curious about the LOS question I posed above. I'll rephrase it:

Was it a fluke when a schreck targeted, hit, and killed my Sherman at about 60 meters through a small stone house that should have been hiding right behind the house? I've been playing CM since CMBO came out and I have never seen this.

If so, which was the fluke, the targeting or the kiling?

[civdiv]

Originally posted by Dave Stockhoff:

I may be risking a spanking myself, but I am really curious about the LOS question I posed above. I'll rephrase it:

Was it a fluke when a schreck targeted, hit, and killed my Sherman at about 60 meters through a small stone house that should have been hiding right behind the house? I've been playing CM since CMBO came out and I have never seen this.

If so, which was the fluke, the targeting or the kiling?

[jasonc]You silly, whining, girlie man, shut your little pie hole. You've gotten all the answers you deserve you whining little pissant. Your Shermans die because you were born with a silver spoon in yer mouth, and they flame up like hibachis because you have no business even coming into my presence! Now bow down and thank your lucky stars that I even hit the reply button, as I seriously doubt if the good lord really intended you to have opposing thumbs!!

[/jasonc]

Just kidding.

[ February 04, 2006, 08:25 PM: Message edited by: civdiv ]

[JasonC]

Dave - houses aren't pure LOS blocks in CM, particularly the small ones. There are occasional lines of sight through them, rare but like "threading" the doors and windows. A full large building squarely between looker and target will block LOS - though you can get the same effect with a LOS line that only cuts a corner of one. A full squad behind a small Russian hut, on the other hand, may well be seen.

[Grimly Fiendish]

I guess that qualifies as a minor fluke!

[Grimly Fiendish]

I was just back in the PBEM game in which the above event occurred, and I found that my estimate of the distance involved was pretty bad. It was actually 120 meters!

[dieseltaylor]

So presumably if it was not square on to the small house it would have had a greater chance of seeing the target. : )

Speaking as a man whose pixeltruppen have killed a Sherman head on at 201 metres I believe in war all things are possible. At aptly the game thrives on the fact that nothing is ever 100% guaranteed.

Of course 14" naval shells would be guaranteed to leave large holes in the ground.

[civdiv]

In a scenario I'm playing, in the midst of a battle between some of my tanks, and a combination of dug in infantry and a couple of AT guns, I lost 7 out of 8 tank commanders in like 2 turns. I think the ranges to the enemy infantry was at least 150 meters, and I didn't take any indirect fire that I noticed. I really never saw it happen, I mean, no duels with AT guns, and it seemed like the enemy infantry were concentrating on my own infantry. I know that isn't a lot of info to go on, but is this probably a sniper or multiple snipers?

What are your feelings on when to button up, when to unbutton?

This is sort of the second time this has happened to me. I had two tanks right next to each other in another scenario both lose their commanders in the same turn, and I didn't even note incoming fire.

Are the TCs too vulnerable to snipers in this game?

[stoat]

I've seen TCs hit by fire aimed at other targets close alongside. A squad of infantry was moving from cover to cover while a tank watched for potential targets. The squad was almost 20 meters away, and moving farther away, when an MG-42 openned up on them. They hit the dirt, I heard the ping-ping-ping of rounds on metal, and sure enough the TC was gone and the crew shocked.

I tend to remain unbuttoned in armor-vs-armor engagements, and button up against infantry at between 150 and 200 meters.

[Wingmanx]

Stoat, I used to do the same thing in armor vs armor engagements, figuring I'd try to keep the visual advantage over the enemy. Until I saw several times when my tank took a direct hit, and while it shrugged off the shot, I guess my TCs, sitting happily up in their hatch caught the business end of shrapnel from the failed shell. So now, once the big steel beasts start throwing shells at each other I tell my TC to get their heads down.

I still find myself tempted to pop up every now and then though. Especially during a lull in the fighting when you know the enemy tank is there but you can't see him due to smoke or a line of trees he popped behind. So many times that first shot can be so important if you manage to land it.

Sometimes it works for me. Sometimes I still send TCs home in pine boxes.