Churchill AVRE firing rate, quick question

[Cabe Booth]

I am playing a game that has an AVRE. Since every other game I played with one, the AVRE was taken out before it could fire I have yet to see this beat unload a round.

In the current game I have a hull down AVRE that has line of sight to an area that has a 2 buildings with a stug between the 2 buildings and a brumbar to the side of them, and I am sure he has spotters and inf in there as well.

Well I targeted some open ground right between the two buildings and it never fired. I had the blue line of site and the target clicked. It didn't fire the whole round. I check its ROF and it is rated "very slow". CMDB says ROF of 2. But I have yet to see 1 round go off. During this time the brumbar and other tanks were demolishing some small light one story building in general area in front of the AVRE. Could the dust be preventing the AVRE from firing the round even thought it acquired the target before the dust became an issue? After waiting 2 round I re-targeted in the same spot and I am hoping on my next round that the round will fire, otherwise I am perplexed as how to light the fuse on this big boy. So what is the possible problem here? DO they need to be unbuttoned or?.............

Secondly,

If the round does go off and land about 15 yards in front of the stug between the two buildings (@2 story). What kind of effect do I expect to see? A dead or immobilized stug, 2 blown up buildings and a damaged brumbar (it is on opposite side of building from blast). Or will I just have a big boom and dust?

Generally if an AVRE mortar round goes off near a tank what does it do? What does it do if by chance it lands on it? Stug? Tiger? Panther? Do they lose tracks or get blown away or is there even a routing possibility?

I know my opponent may read this, but by then it will be too late. I don't think they have the internet in the afterlife

[John Kettler]

Cabe Booth (presumably synonymous with Cabe?),

Dust will block LOS, thus preventing fire. It is usually more of a headache, though, when trying to conduct an artillery shoot, since it triggers an automatic miss. At a functional level, though, your predicament is on par with trying to fire into an area obscured by a smoke round. You may've had LOS when you checked, but it was apparently blocked when the fire order was on the verge of being executed.

I haven't used the AVRE in CMAK, but if the modeling hasn't changed since CMBO, the Flying Dustbin projectile isn't depicted correctly. Essentially, it's treated as a big hollow charge, when in reality, it was a massive HESH round, a big blob of plastic explosive intended to mold to the target pillbox, stabilized by a spike, then detonated, the kill mechanism being massive internal spall of concrete via transmitted shock wave. In CMBO, at least, the round will kill or stun a tank with a direct hit, or M-Kill it with a track/running gear hit, but is woefully under modeled against buildings and pillboxes, which it could and did demolish handily in real life. Unless I badly miss my guess, I'd expect the "all sound and fury signifying nothing" outcome for the situation you describe. Am hoping that when BFC gets back to WW II, this unusual weapon is properly depicted, complete with its ability to carry and debark explosive armed combat engineers.

Here's some info (Engineering Equipment for Landings). Max ROF, with the well drilled crew, was 4 rounds a minute.

http://www.remuseum.org.uk/campaign/rem_campaign_overlord.htm

This shows the Flying Dustbin (factory and field)

http://www.theglasgowstory.co.uk/image.php?inum=TGSA00879

http://www.d-daytanks.org.uk/articles/avre.html

And here's a tip. AVREs were constructed from earlier Churchill models and are nowhere nearly as well protected as Crocodiles.

Regards,

John Kettler

[ April 19, 2007, 01:00 AM: Message edited by: John Kettler ]

[Cabe Booth]

yes,

I changed my forum name because my previous user name "Cabe" was taken on EZboard forums when I registered to be a member of the Band Of Brothers, so to keep everything under the same name I had to make my Ezboard user name "CabeBooth", while here it has been renamed "Cabe Booth". Sucks, since all my posts and mods are under the name Cabe but it shouldn't be too hard for folks to make the connection, plus I have only been posting and modding for a month or so.

Thanks for the reply, yes I have lost many AVRE in a single shot. They don't hold up well.

Well even if they immobilize the tanks, with stugs and other no-turret model AFVs that is just disastrous. So I will watch and learn. I have 2 of them so this might be the most expensive loss in m gaming history or a stoke of great luck having immobile tanks to flank and shoot in the butt.

I have yet to try the Croc, I am wary of it's range, I know it is far, but how far?

Even told in numbers, until I see it on a map I won't get a true feel for its effectiveness.

[John Kettler]

Cabe Booth,

Important Crocodile tips. The flame gun is where your hull MG would normally be. If you get a "hull MG blocked" message, this means you have no flame capability because of terrain masking. You do, though, have a perfectly functional 75mm gun and coax MG. Also, when you go to shoot something and your flame gun is unmasked and in its coverage arc,

be sure to say no when asked "Use main gun?" Otherwise, your cannon will fire, leaving you wanting to scream. I highly recommend you run some small tests yourself with the

Crocodile before fighting anyone else. Confusing your switchology in battle can be deadly! I speak directly from Rumblings of War (ROW) tournament experience. The Crocodile is very well protected.

Learned this by winning a gun duel with a Pak 40 pillbox after shrugging off some three direct hits frontally at a range of several hundred meters.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Cabe Booth]

Hmmm, I have one in my current battle against 1945 axis armor, what does that 75mm translate to in UK terms? a 6 pounder?

[Kingfish]

Originally posted by Cabe Booth:

So what is the possible problem here?

What range is the target?

The AVRE's main gun is a 290mm Petard Mortar, which has a range of 250 meters. However, if LOS conditions allow, you can easily target something as far as 4km away and the target line will stick. The AVRE will go through the motions of traversing the turret and raising the gun in anticipation of firing, but nothing else will happen.

BTW, one of the reasons you may be experiencing frustration with the AVRE may be due to the mission you are calling it to perform.

Historically, the AVRE was designed to crack open fixed fortifications such as pillboxes, and not to go H2H with StuGs and the like. The ROF (as you will find out) is excruciatingly slow, and once it does fire its accuracy is nothing to write home about. Against an armored opponent with a decent gun it is meat on the table.

[Cabe Booth]

250M eh? Yeah that might be it. I was pretty close but may have been just over 250m. I will take a look on the next turn/load an old turn ect.

Thanks

[John Kettler]

Kingfish,

Did you notice that the REME site listed the accurate range as 80 meters? Maybe that's for direct fire against a point target.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Kingfish]

Makes sense given the limited role this vehicle was designed for. If you think about it, apart from helping breach the Atlantic wall defenses there really wasn't that many instances where the AVRE was used. Le Havre perhaps, but I can't think of anywhere else.

[Broompatrol]

I ran some contrived tests for the AVRE and CROC and here are some of my results conclusions:

AVRE:

1)must be within 170m to have reasonble chance to hit.

2)In my tests a HIT from the AVRE had a 100% kill rate v any AFV or bunker. Regular infantry in trenches broke after first shot

3)Near misses to unbuttoned vehicles from AVRE caused crew hits, but no immobilizations

4)AVRE cannot defeat 88mm or 75mm bunker from the front due to range limitations.

5)AVRE will not fire if hit chance is too low.

6)AVRE routinely ignores AREA FIRE orders to engage what it percieves as better target.

7) Suprisingly, AVRE easily hit vehicles within 120m. But for the sake of testing the target vehicles had no ammo.

My conclusion: AVRE has awesome destructive capablities v fortifications. Extremely vulnerable to Guns and AFVs due to: no stand off ability, no 1st shot capablity and slow speed.

The AVRE is basically a siege engine. You can bring it up to take out buildings, bunkers and trenches AFTER AT threat is removed.

The AVRE would probably only be successful in an encounter with another AFV in case of ambush and should not be used against vehicles.

CROC:

1)better armor than AVRE

2)FT accurate within 70m

3)FT high ROF

4)Sometimes you only have to shoot at a bunker or vehicle with FT to cause them abandon. I think this had to do with the low morale caused by the testing conditions.

5)75mm gun easily got firing slit penetrations within 200m and routine back door penetration within 500m, but required many hits for crew to bail.

6)FT very effective against AFVs. Kills/Abandonments with 1-3 hits.

CROC more survivable in AT environment with better armor and 75mm gun. High ROF with 75mm gun and FT make CROC scary.

low speed a liablity but given its mission seems superior to AVRE in ROF and AT capability. FT still allows it destroy bunkers from any aspect but it will usually take more than one hit. Very effective against infantry.

Given a choice I could take a CROC over the AVRE because of its 75mm gun. If the AVRE had indirect fire capabilty for its mortar it would be absolutely frightening IMO. But since it doesn't the limited range makes it a niche tool like a baby Sturmtiger. I think you could design some intersting scenarios around the AVRE but I would'nt pick it for a QB given its limitations.

[John Kettler]

Broompatrol,

Appreciate the tests and play feedback! Would it be asking too much for you to have a crack with the AVRE at heavy buildings with and without troops, say, regulars, in them? I recall performance wasn't impressive at all against such buildings, though maybe you'd get decent results vs. a small heavy building.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Broompatrol]

I'd be happy to blow up some buildings for ya, if someone doesn't beat me to it!

[Cabe Booth]

I'm trying ,

the 2 panthers and Stu42 are keeping me from LOS

[Broompatrol]

Cabe, re: your game.

Misses with the AVRE will result with a boom and dust. If the vehicles are unbuttoned you may cause a crew casualty but you probably won't damage them without a direct hit.

The AVRE is great against infantry but I would keep it away ffrom the Panthers and Stu42

[Cabe Booth]

Interestingly enough it did fire. But at the same time he had fired an off map nebelwerfer barrage, and well....my explosion was lost in all the rockets falling short on his tanks, troop and building. he has to be tad pissed right now.

[Broompatrol]

Ohhhhhh I'd love to see that. But you opponent should know better than to use a nebelwerfer in proximity to his own forces.

BTW I nee to redo my last test and apparently the AI morale went too low and everybody panciked and ran at the same time.

[Cabe Booth]

Yeah,

I don't know the extent of the damage he received from his own barrage, but he had at last 3 assault guns a tiger and a panther out there with the spotters ect in the building. He literally was just 100 yard in front of me when they came down, not one round made it near my forces.

[Broompatrol]

NEW tests for AVRE & CROC.

This test was very dull until the end.

AVRE v Buildings: small light building=2 hits to destroy. lg light building=4 hits to destroy.

Lg hvy building=10 hits to destroy.

AVRE's would miss buildings 30-50% of time at ranges over 160m under 130m would hit about 80-90% of time. ROF and waiting for dust to clear made knocking down building painfully slow

AVRE v infantry in trenches/or foxholes. Veteran and crack sturm inf did not break while under command. The accuracy and rof of avre made effective area fire difficult. INf n buildings would rally and then counter-attack AVRE with grenades and panzerfausts. I lost 3 tanks by getting them too close to the buildings. The infantry rushed out at once and massacred my tanks. They also took some prisoners. What a hoot!

However If the AVRE got a shot at inf running in open it was over for those guys. The blast would make them take cover. they would stay pinned with machinegun fire and then the second round would break them.

CROC v buildings w/FT. the number of hits to start a fire seemed random; 4 for a large light and 30 for a small light building. But after a few shots infantry in buildings would flee the flames.

CROC v entrenched inf: Experience did not seem to matter. a couple of squirts from the FT and the inf would flee.

The only drawback with the FT is the the hull mounting. the CROC is slow to pivot. But the turret give you stand off at any aspect.

Both tanks are very vulnerable to infantry within 120m. The slow response time allows inf to get right up on them.

I would choose a CROC over an AVRE for just about any scenario given the results of my dorky little experiment.

The AVRE sucks for blowing up buildings because it just takes too long and is not that effective at breaking infantry taking cover in them.

[Cabe Booth]

Well that's a real shame. I was hoping that AVRE would at least give the allies a brummbar type unit, but it does sound like the AVRE is just too expensive to risk the minimal armor, effects and the range needed to get any shot off anyway. Sounds like a croc is the go to for the big buy assault tank. Instead of avre would almost be better to tow a 17 pounder or howitzer around. Heck even the SP autocar.

[Broompatrol]

Croc seems more versatile. I've only used the Croc in a couple of scenarios and by the time the AT threat was reduced enough to use it, I had already broke most of his infantry with my infantry and Shermans. In the other scenario I lost it early to a side shot from a sneaky stug so didn't get much mileage out of it.

I do love the ROF of the FT though. You can get about 30 squirts a turn, if it's just sitting and hosing.

[Cabe Booth]

Yeah, I am running with one for first time right now. he is hidden well for the time being

[Broompatrol]

Cabe, looking forward to your AAR. I'm curious to hear about AVRE and CROC v a real opponent.

[Cabe Booth]

well i had the avre fire at a space behind a tiger. it made the tiger back up, actually to now where his butt end is sticking out from between the 2 buildings, I cannot actually target him, still says blocked, so gonna put a round on the pavement right behind him.

The second round before the tiger backed up landed on top of a 2 story building, it damaged it, have no idea if anyone was up there, but the avre is pretty damn inaccurate. can be off by about 20-30 yards past, but i have not seen one fall short or to the sides but slightly

earlier the other avre threw a round at a panther, i noticed nothing, but as i said it was during him nebelwerfering the crapola out of himself.

[Cabe Booth]

well the new round just fired and landed about 3 feet behind the tiger. If it did anything I can't tell. I am not getting any signs its immobile or such. Still targeting though

[Kingfish]

Originally posted by Broompatrol:

Cabe, looking forward to your AAR. I'm curious to hear about AVRE and CROC v a real opponent.

May I recommend... To the last man.

Before I converted this scenario to CMAK I played this vs John Kettler in a pbem. To this day I still rate it as one of my top five pbem games.