Question for Norwegian Grogs

[Hans]

Might you have a diagram or map (link) of the action at Midtsokogen on 9/10 April, 1940?

[Michael Emrys]

My, my! Aren't we getting esoteric now!

Michael

[Hans]

Michael are we anti-esoteric?

[Rabidbvr]

hello one and all...

this site may help its in english ... well most of it any way

http://www.mil.no/felles/nhm/start/eng/exhibition/

hope it helps

happy hunting

[Rabidbvr]

Hello one and all...

http://profantasy.com/products/ww2ia.asp

this may have the maps you need

happy hunting...

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Hans:

Michael are we anti-esoteric?

No, we are providing a bump so that your request did not slip off the page.

Michael

[Hans]

Michael, Ah well then my thanks are given and I have ordered the immediate return of the hit mackeral. You might want to stay away from any large bodies of waters for a few days...

Thanks Rabidbvr, yes I actually found those two sites the first doesn't have anything and the second never worked right.

I had wondered if there was anything in the Norwegian language area? Found a lot of material but my limited Danish is unable to comprehend it all.

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Hans:

Michael, Ah well then my thanks are given and I have ordered the immediate return of the hit mackeral. You might want to stay away from any large bodies of waters for a few days...

I fear no mackeral so long as I am protected by my prætorian guard of trusty Orcas. However, their numbers do seem to be diminishing of late. You wouldn't happen to have anything to do with that, would you...?

Michael

[Hans]

I would fear these mackerals, they luncheon on tinned Orca just this morning in lieu of their standard kipper.

[Michael Emrys]

Well, my guys are safe then as long as yours don't bring along a can opener.

Michael

[Hans]

DAMN you figured out the counter measure, curse you, will shall return and the earth shall, I say again, shall be ours.....

Hey what does this have to do with Midtsokogen!

[Duke71]

Hi Hans!

As a Norwegian I'm a bit puzzled of the word "Midtsokogen". I think you mean "Midtskogen".

There was a battle there during the German invasion of Norway in 1940. I think the Germans tried to get the Norwegian king with some fallschirmjägers, but they were stopped by some Norwegian soldiers.

Try these sources: http://lotus.uib.no/norgeslexi/krig.html

and: http://www.nuav.net/ndWW2.html

If you write the name "Midtskogen" right you might get lucky!

Duke71

[Hans]

Duke71 (hey a fairly new guy too), Mange Tak, yep I was spelling it wrong, but just for this thread!

Yes it was the Norwegian Royal Guard that stopped them and I'm trying to get details on this small little action.

Question do you have a Norwegian source book that might have any info on this?

Jeg haber, vi snart ses igen

Hans

[Duke71]

Here is something I found on the 'net:

(It's written in Norwegian)

"Midtskogen, en gård noen km vest for Elverum, åsted for en mindre trefning natten mellom 9. og 10.4.1940. Den tyske flyattaché Eberhard Spiller forsøkte med en improvisert styrke tyske soldater å bane seg vei mot Elverum for å ta kongen og regjeringen til fange. Til å begynne med var raidet svært vellykket da større norske styrker ble avvæpnet og tatt til fange underveis. Men hovedmålet ble ikke oppnådd. På initiativ fra Otto Ruge ble det organisert en mindre norsk styrke på ca. 90 mann som la seg i stilling ved Midtskogen. Da tyskerne dukket opp utpå natten kom det til en mindre skuddveksling der Spiller var den eneste som ble såret, og han døde senere på Hamar sykehus. Både tyske og norske styrker trakk seg så tilbake. Tross sitt forholdsvis ubetydelige format fikk trefningen stor betydning, da norske myndigheter for andre gang fikk tid til å komme seg i sikkerhet. Flere av de som deltok på norsk side under kampene ble senere å finne i sentrale verv innenfor, motstandsbevegelsen, noen også i NS."

As this was a rather small battle there are no books, as far as I know, about this alone, but one these books "Kampene i Norge 1940" vol I and II has something about Midtskogen. They're written in Norwegian with summarys in English. They're rather old so you have to try a library to find them. Hope this helps!

[Hans]

Thanks Duke

Unfortunately I'm in a "no library zone" (the middle east) so that not an option.

[Duke71]

Oh...

I checked Amazon.com and they had a record of the book I mentioned, but no option to order it.

Why are you so interested in this battle?

I think the Norwegian Armed Forces Museum in Oslo has a model of the battle. Maybe you can contact them? Here is their email adress: post.fmu@mil.no

Duke71

[Hans]

Thanks for the hint

I'm going to design a series of linked battles, ie a campaign based on about 8 historic Norway battles in the south-central areas-I wanted to use that as one of the tiny battles

[Dandelion]

Hans,

Ah, we are reaching into depths of obscurity that sparkles an interest in me..

Allow me to tell a story. Settle down around the fire kids, as this one will take a while.

Hauptmann Eberhard Spiller of the Luftwaffe (age 34) was stationed officially as airforce attaché at the German embassy in Oslo. He arrived there with his beautiful wife Ursula (age 27) and two kids (Erika, 4, and Hans-Jürgen, 3) in october 1939. The handsome airman was in fact an agent, specially attached to the forming airborne raid detachments (i.e. the paras). His former station was London. At the outbreak of war he was temporarily transfered to the Netherlands (guess why), but soon returned to Olso. End of february 1940 he was called to Berlin to receive his orders, among which were a complete report on the Norwegian airforces (they had two you know) and airfields (civlian and military) with defensive installations. In the next weeks he travelled all over Norway from Oslo to Narvik, collecting data. He was of course especially familiar with Fornebu airport, close to his flat in Oslo. The Norwegians liked him, as he was a very pleasant and social type, as agents tend to be perhaps. At the time, only three people at the German embassy knew about the planning of Weserübung, and what Spiller was up to. His wife knew nothing.

Spiller was also tasked with the mapping of the Norwegian government and, in particular, the head of state (i.e. the King). To this end he held a number of receptions, the largest of which hosted over 200 high ranking officials.

One of these dinners was the amply named operation "Abendessen". Several ranking Norwegian officials were invited to dinner at the Spillers on the evening of april 8th. Just before the guests arrived Spiller reported to Berlin that Fornebu airport has six fighterplanes on alert. He was instructed to arrive at Fornebu at 0515 to aid the first landing German paras. He was also told that German ships will be arriving in Oslo at 0415. He then turned to his guests, among whom were four officers of the German (civilian) Lufthansa - actually Luftwaffe officers. The dinner ended at around midnight, with the Norwegian guests leaving, rather drunk, but the Germans remaining.

At around 3 am two cars with five men left Oslo, all dressed in civilian clothes (Spiller had a uniform underneath his coat). They stopped at a small house near Fornebu airport, from where they could see the events taking place.

There was no paradrop (4./FJR 1 was supposed to have taken the field by air assault, but the drop was aborted and this company ended up in Denmark instead - the Norwegian sky was full of Norwegian fighters) and Spiller had to wait until 0830 until the first German aircraft landed under chaotic circumstances (Ju 52s that had run out of gas and had to land, the (infantry)men sticking weapons out of the windows to shoot their way down). At the sight, Spiller acted according to his orders.

Taking the group of agents, the two cars speeded up to the airport (the Norwegians didn't fire at him for reasons unexplained) and collected 21 rather dazzled infantrymen (he was supposed to have met up with paras from 4th coy, we will remember). He hijacked two Norwegian army trucks (fighting was still going on at the airfield at this time) and mounted machineguns on them, and the group of vehicles speeded to Spillers special target - the royal castle. They found the royal family evacuated, and Spiller for once lost his manners, white with rage. He had failed.

What he did not know then was that the special raid detachment - also paras - assigned to the capture of the Norwegian government had been wiped out. They had travelled with the Blücher and were, as they say, sleeping with the fishes.

Spiller returned alone to his flat, and then at around 1500 hours went to the German embassy (where he was told about the raid detachment). Spiller was still obsessed with his mission and nags at dr. Bräuer until he manages to commandeer a company of paras (namely 2./FJR 1, which had airlanded on Fornebu along with 1./FJR 1 and was actually tasked with other assignments). Well informed and connected, Spiller knew exactly where he was to head - Hamar. He had adopted the task of capturing the Norwegian government as well, since they were travelling with the king anyway.

At 1700 hours the company heads off, using four buses (hijacked from Oslos public transport), one Norwegian army truck and Spillers private car. They arrive to Hamar only to find out (in ways unknown, but Spiller was well connected) the royal family had headed on to Elverum, and so they followed. At exactly 0133, they run straight into the roadblock at Midtskogen.

The "battlefield" was situated at the heart of the area of mobilisation of the 2nd (Olso) Division. There was only one road between Hamar and Elverum, and it ran through a narrow, very heavily forested valley (still does). By order of Colonel Ruge, Colonel Olof Helset had organised a small party (most sources say 90 men) of raw recruits to set up a roadblock in Midtskogen, near the small community by the same name. They had rifles and possibly lmg(s). It would very effectively cut the valley off, and thus protect Elverum. Some of these conscripts (20 are mentioned) had had only 10 minutes military training - loading a rifle. Nonetheless, the Norwegians were by then aware of the rapid German thrusts right into their mobilisation areas, knocking out large masses of totally disorganised conscripts. The roadblock was a countermeasure against such coups. It had nothing to do with the King.

When the cars and buses approached at rapid speed in the dead of night, the Norwegians opened fire. As far as is known, the fire only caused one casualty, the driver of the forwardmost vehicle - Spiller (since he is the only one who knew the way - or even where they were). He was shot in the chest, a hit normally attributed to Lieutenant Harald Jektvik (God knows how they could tell). The Paras immediately de-bus, there is exchange of fire, but in the darkness both forces panic and withdraw, fading into the forest.

Spiller was taken to Hamar hospital, but his life could not be saved. He died on April 10th, 12:30.

He was buried with all honours, an airforce funeral visited by an unusual number of navy officers, i.e. people from the German military intelligence.

His wife Ursula married the naval attaché instead, in 1947, and lived happily until he died in 1966, maybe even after. She died in 1989. The strikingly beautiful daughter Erika lives in Paris, and last I heard of the son, he lived in Boston, USA.

I doubt anyone ever made a tactical map of this incident.

But there is a little stone to be seen. Here on this web page. There used to be a museum close by, but there isn't anymore. The Museum contained all kinds of facts surrounding this incident. Most of all though it focused on the Elverumfullmakt, but lets not get into that. Don´t know where the Museum is relocated.

The forest in question here lies between Hamar and Elverum and ought to be quite intact, it is still a very sparsely populated area. Its quite easy to order a 1:50 000 map of the forest from the Kommun (Elverum or Hamar, but even tiny Midstskogen has a site these days). Costs are negligeble (I hate spelling that word).

I have a tactical German map (photocopy) of the area. Sadly its too faded to be of any use here. Can't make out any Midtskogen on it. But that's about it, in my files.

But you know, any road in a narrow, heavily pineforested valley will look very credible. Just put up to markers "To Elverum" and "To Hamar" at each end and everyone will believe you've used an aerial recce shot. It all looks much the same. Its a very beautiful tract. Kofi Anan likes to wander there.

Makes for a wonderful "what-if" scenario. If the paras had not panicked they might have reached Elverum where the King and the entire Norwegian Nygaardsvold government and the Storting president Hambro were.

Ok so it wouldn't have altered the course of world history, but still.

So. How were you planning on doing the Norwegians? As Brits?

Cheerio

Dandelion

[Hans]

Dandelion, thanks for the information. I had previous information that the Norwegian Royal Guard were the men manning the road block?

Norwegians? Ah the Poles of course (needed a non English language and the French just "wouldn't" do).

May expand it into a 'hunt for the royal family" what if-we shall see

[Wisbech_lad]

And what's Erica's phone number...?

[Duke71]

Dandelion; What's your source? I am most impressed with the level of detail in your story about Spiller. I am interested in the events around the German invasion of Norway 9. April 1940. There are a lot of Norwegian books, but they are seldom at this level of detail. Do you know of any good English books concerning the invasion from the German point of view?

Duke71

[Dandelion]

Hans

Yes, elements of 1./HMKG were present and löytnant Jektvik was an officer of this company. Midtskogen is part of the HMKG battle honours and thus "their" battle as far as the Norwegians are concerned.

The troop at the roadblock contained elements of other units, who were recently mobilised men from Elverum, probably from all kinds of units (I've never seen any specific reference). I've always assumed that the often mentioned 20 untrained men were these "other unit" men. But I have no source on it, it just seems logical to me. The 1./HMKG was not untrained like that (though they were conscript and pretty much raw recruits, they did have basic training).

The roadblock was errected in the heart of the mobilisation area of 2nd (Oslo) Division (of which the HMKG was part btw). All mobilisation centers will have been chaotic and crowded by this time. Elverum and Hamar had at least one - presumably several - such centers each. Under supervision of Colonel Ruge (et al) men were formed and sent off to man defenses, some in regular units and others quite ad-hoc.

The HMKG (most of it) escorted the royal family to Elverum and was immediately pressed into local service, employed in the boosting and organising of the defenses around Elverum proper.

Poles, yes, good idea. You can always change all names into typical Norwegian such to add feel. Let me know when the scenario is released.

And Wisbech - Erika was 3 years old in 1939. Lets count together from there. She's still a stunner though.

Cheerio

Dandelion

[Dandelion]

Duke

Wrote that from the top of my head actually.

But ab ovo - Short answer is no, I don't know any English books on Weserübung from a German perspective. I am not all that proficient in English and feel safer researching German or Scandinavian texts. Thus there might well be very good books in English, I just haven't looked for any. I got almost all of what I wrote above from Norwegian sources The rump of it from German such of course.

You as a Norwegian really don't need English books to study Weserübung, even from a German perspective. In terms of details, you have all you need lying at your feet. Oceans of details. Want to know how many 6.5 cartridges the defenders of Fornebu had? The names and birthplaces of the machinegunners? Easily researched at the Norska Riksarkivet. As research material of course, but also to a large extent in the convenient shape of already written reports.

This includes - to lead us in on your initial question, that of my sources - two official reports on the Midtskogen fight alone, and one of these is written by Spillers killer Lt Jektvik himself (not dated; the larger report is from 78). Both titles contains the name Midtskogen and are easily found. I found them There were several other highly detailed reports on smaller actions. E.g. I recall a series of reports concerning the airfields as such, and defense of the same, which I also read (but only the volume about Fornebu). It contained data on allotment of 6.5mm cartridges for the Madsens. Rate of spending too I believe. Logs of Captain Munthe Dahl etc. Rather serious stuff all of it really. I read these in 96, and the same year I was at the Midtskogsgård Museum, where I bought a booklet no longer in my possession, but which was published as I recall it by the army, also covering the events (nice illustrations but poorly written).

Riksarkivet has a good compilation about Spillers activities too, as I described them above (Spillers name in the title, I haven't noted any publication year, maybe undated). But there is a better one in the B.A. that even mentions what food was served in operation Abendessen (Spiller wanted his costs covered you see). This is not a report but a logged correspondence, thus research material.

The correspondence between the Berlin and the German embassy in Olso is published too, and there are passuses that concern Spiller in it. I don't have that at home either tho.

The B.A. is the German national archive. One can find all one needs there if researching the German perspective. Including Weserübung details and analysis. As you speak Norwegian, you will no doubt manage to work your way through a German text even with zero studies in German. But I realise that it might not be very convenient to travel to Germany just to read a few documents.

On Spiller in particular there is also a private diary, namely that of Ursula, which by strange fate I came across.

But, generally, are you interested in modern military history, and one of those people who are frustrated, waiting for the publishing of quality books on the topics you are interested in, but these never seem to materialise? Then your discovery of national archives - treasure vaults of grognards - will be a religious experience. Suddenly, everything becomes so... wonderful. (I am not being ironic)

Happy hunting

Dandelion

PS. In Sweden and Finland, the military sits on h-i-g-h-l-y interesting libraries of their own. Might be the same in Norway?

[Hans]

Mange Takk Dandelion

[Duke71]

I thought you needed to be an author to get acess to the archives, but you proved me wrong!

As a German, don't you find it difficult to read Norwegian?

Guten Abend!

Duke71