Question for Norwegian Grogs

[Dandelion]

Varsågod Hans.

Duke, my family is multilingual/ethnical and sort of spread over Germany-Sweden-Norway, and I've been hearing all three languages spoken in my home since childhood. I imagine myself fluent in all of them.

But please don't test me in public

The Norwegian branch, though extinct since 1997 actually, lived in the Halden/Berg area. I still have friends there, and more distant relations. I have no problem with written Norwegian but I do have problems understanding several of the spoken dialects, e.g. the Bergenese.

Cheerio

Dandelion

[Hans]

Jeg taler ikke dansk. Tal langsommere?

It will be a few weeks but when I begin the structuring of the campaign would you like to be a consultant?

My initial research has given me excellent info on the Brits, so-so on the Germans and limited and vague information on those brave Norse ancestors.

I was looking at Verdalsora, Vist, Dombass, Balberkamp, Tretten, Kvam, Kjorem, Otta and of course an expanded Midtskogen. Some of the bigger ones I would either downsize (company = platoon) or zoom in on a specific moment.

Can you suggest any pure Norwegian vs German 'small battles'?

My Danish ancestors left Jutland around 1872 if I recall.

Pa gensyn

[Dandelion]

Hans,

Ok I'll speak slowly

My suggestion for a smaller exclusively Norwegian vs. German battle has to be Gråbeinhölet. No Norwegian would ever forgive me if I didn't

Context in brief

The North-South pass leading up to Bergen was defended by lvbn/IR6 (the Landvern [Home Guard] battalion of the Vestoppland Regiment). This unit faced (German) IR 236 with several support units, pushing hard Northwards.

After a rather successful delaying battle, the lvbn went over to defence in the cauldron valley (and community) of Bagn, south of Bergen. The Germans were unable to breach the defences, which were soon reinforced by IB4 (Infantry Brigade 4 - also called the Valdres Group) under Colonel Gudbrand Östbye.

IB 4 consisted of II/IR9 (2nd Bn of the Hordaland Rgt), I and II/IR10 (1st and 2nd Bn of the Fjordane Regiment). These were Vestlanders. Eventually it also included II/4, who were from Romerike. Altogether about 3500 men. The brigade was actually ordered (by Ruge, who was a General, not a Colonel as I see I wrote in a former post) to Östlandet in order to outflank the Germans in Gudbrandsdalen, and thus considered themselves to be held up at Bagn. They were not defensively minded.

In order to force the pass the Germans sent a company (6./IR 236) to flank the Norwegians, climbing over a steep, densely forested ridge. Snow was rather deep up there.

In order to throw the Germans back, the Norwegians did the exact same thing. The company sent is curiously unidentified in the sources I have. The men were from Sogn and so it must have been a company of either I or II/IR 10. But no idea which one, and what number. Company commander was Captain Fredrik W Rieber-Mohn. A solicitor in civilian life and an officer in the reserve, he was of jewish faith and was eventually murdered in the KZ Natzweiler in 1944.

The battle of Gråbeinhölet

Both companies climbed the steep and forested ridge but the more terrain-skilled Norwegians made far better speed, thus the clash took place with the Germans generally fighting uphill. Nonetheless, the Germans had significantly higher firepower, the Norwegians had no handgrenades at all and only two Madsens (think - Bren). The Germans made three determined assaults but were soundly beaten back. Eventually the dazed survivors retreated some 100 meters to a mountain farm (Bagnsbergenegård - with 19 civilians in it), carrying many wounded. Here they were soon attacked by the pursuing Norwegians. After a final, rather ferocious battle, the 6./IR 236 was destroyed, all men either dead or captured. The commander, who's name I cannot immediately recall, fell.

Cpt Rieber-Mohn continued with his orders and flanked the mainforce IR 236 in Bagnsgryta, which had to withdraw. Precious time was gained, alas to no avail as these events took place in the span of 18th-27th april. Norwegian forces in South Norway laid down their arms on April 30th. In the Bagn fighting as a whole the IR 236 lost 157 killed and 458 wounded or missing, to which must be added Germans of other units taking part (there is no separate list for those). The Norwegians lost 47 killed and 237 wounded.

A remarkable action in many ways.

In fact, another great smallish battle - my opinion - would be the very first German attempt to force Bagnsgryta, then defended only by smaller elements of the lvbn. The Germans advanced with two companies, normal mortar support and three tanks (I and II), but were beaten back. The Panzers were damaged by mortars and scared by intense lmg's mainly.

There were of course hard fought actions for the Germans against exclusively Norwegian forces at Dombås (your Dombass, right? - I think the English transcription would be Dombaas), Rena and Vinjesvinger as well.

Sure I'll be a consultant, just say the word. Don't forget Duke there tho, he's the one close to the relevant archives if we hit blind spots in our sources. Leaving out northern Norway in the campaign? Guess that narrows things down to more manageable size.

Cheerio

Dandlion

[Duke71]

I enjoy reading your stories Dandelion. But I must correct one of your names: It's called Vinjesvingen.

In fact that's not more than a 2 hour drive from where I live, and the Norwegian forces who fought there were set up at Heistadmoen, and that military base still exists, an it's in my home town Kongsberg. I got my officer-training there. Correct me here Dandelion, but at Heistadmoen two (?) battalions mobilized, but their commander decided to not fight the Germans because of threats of bombing the city. A group under a Captain Hannevig, scrounged weapons, ammo and uniforms and went to Vinjesvingen where they fought several successful battles vs. the Germans.

And Hans you must remember that around Narvik the Norwegian 2. Division under Gen. Fleischer fought well against Gen. Dietl and his mountain division. The Norwegians got help from the British, the French Foreign Legion and some Poles.

In fact, they pushed the Germans until they had their back against the border to the neutral Sweden. But at that point the war was lost for the Norwegians, because of the Allied retreat from the Norwegian Theater. That was a big disappointment to the Norwegian soldiers.

And at last Dandelion; Ruge was a Colonel at the start of the German invasion, but he was promoted to General of the General Staff. He took command of all the Norwegian forces in Southern Norway and Fleischer had command in the Northern sector of the country.

Duke71

(2.lt)

[Hans]

Duke and Dandelion thanks for all the info

Duke71 what is the Norwegian command and staff college called? (The place they send their field grade officers for military education and training)

I ask because these places often use historical battles to relook and educate the officers. If asked nicely they often share!

[Duke71]

In Norway this is the way to be an officer:

Befalsskole: 2 yrs Rank: Sgt -> 2.lt

Krigsskole: 3-4 yrs Rank: 1.lt -> Capt -> Maj

There has been several of these schools in Norway during the years, now there are a Krigsskole for each branch in the forces. There are also separate Befalsskoler for each branch.

From Krigsskole you have to go through Forsvarets Stabsskole. This is the "ticket" to get a post within the General Staff and in the end to be one of the highest rankin officers of the country.

Don't know if this was what you asked for Hans, but do ask if there is something more you would like to know.

Duke71

[Hans]

Sounds like it might be the Korsvarets Stabsskole - I'll try and find an address for them in a few days- will be back in a day or so.

[Duke71]

Hans: Remember it's Forsvarets Stabsskole...

And the Armed Forces museums are good places to get information. A lot of old veterans work there and often they have a rather big network to turn to for more.

Duke71

[Andreas]

A very good book from the Allied perspective is Major-General Moulton's 'The Norwegian Campaign of 1940 - a study in tri-dimensional warfare', which I picked up for a ridiculoous amount of money at Bovington.

From the German side, the best source is most likely the currently out of print and totally unavailable (including ZVAB and Abebooks.com) "Weserübung", published as volume I of the series 'Operations of WW2' by oldenbourg on behalf of the MGFA. In German, of course. I have not seen this book, but if is is 10% as good as Frieser's 'Blitzkrieg Legende', Vol. II of this series, it must be the last word.

An earlier (1960s) work on this is by Hubatsch, and has been used by Moulton. Moulton is a great writer. He commanded a Commando Brigade at the Walcheren landings, and for some weird reason has ever since been fascinated with amphibious warfare. His book 'The battle for Antwerp' is a cracking read.

[Hans]

Andreas, yep the battle of Antwerp is excellent

[Dandelion]

Hans, are you still working on this? I just picked up this recently published book the other day - well today in fact. Updated facts and research. Very interesting - for those esoterically inclined.

Cheerio

Dandelion

[Hans]

Yes I am!

I've been stalled by the lack of any small scale maps of these actions

(rubbing hands) what do you have in there....a map of the Danish German fights at Haberslev, Abild or Solsted, others? Or the Norwegian fights?

[Dandelion]

Hans,

It's the Norwegian fights. Two Danish fights are mentioned, outlining the units involved, but all of it on one page and no tactical maps. The other 319 pages concern Norway.

The interesting bits with this work are

- Qualified comparative study between German and Norwegian data, including captured such released only recently from Russian archives. This way, the authors have been able to puncture quite a few old truths. I see they've found some microfilms in the BA on this topic that I had no idea existed.

- Attention to detail. While losing some in the operational and strategic department, the authors make a (s far as I know) unprecedented effort on pinpointing participating units in every skirmish. Down to the last man so to speak.

The invasion is a tad bit difficult to research effectively, since so many nations were involved. The Authors seem to manage German and Norwegian sources very handsomely, and UK sources adequately, but French and Polish seem somewhat absent.

Tactical maps display heightcurves with painstaking accuracy, as well as writing out heights in meters. They include individual houses. However, for some reason, they do not include terrain. Forest, marsh etc. All white. Maybe to not mess the maps up. Unit movements are marked with unit name and arrows, only operational maps use NATO tactical symbols. Thus, the maps rely heavily on the text for understanding. The book includes following tactical maps:

The Björnfell battle April 16

The Balberkamp battle April 22

The Vardekampen battle April 23

The Kvam battle April 25-6

The Otta battle April 28

The fighting around Ankenesfjellet April 29-May 2

The Landing at Bjerkvik May 13

The Stien battle May 17

The Pothus battle May 25-6

The fighting around Ankenesfjellet May 28

Plus a number of operational and strategical maps.

Names used are those used in Norwegian tradition, and might differ from UK names. E.g. the "Otta" battles above are often called the "Dombås" or "Gudbrandsdal" battles in UK sources. And so forth.

Of course, all above battles are covered in text. Numerous other skirmishes, such as Midtskogen as we have discussed above, are described in detail in text, but no map.

The book also focus on naval battles and the fight for air supremacy, but this will be of limited interest here.

Of course, I have no scanner as of yet. Planning to get myself one, but am waiting for a shipload of upgrades (CPU, motherboard etc) and will have to install all of that first. Might crash the system you know.

But tactical maps was the lack preventing progress. I'll think of some way of scanning and sending you the ones you want.

Which ones would be interesting from the above?

Cheerio

Dandelion

[Hans]

Howdy Dandelion

I'd be glad to send you some money to copy and send me copies of some of the maps by snail mail

Send me an email at

Wayne100@emirates.net.ae

Thanks for your help

Dang was really hoping to find something on Midtskogen!

[Dandelion]

Hi Hans,

No don't send any money. In just a few days, maybe tops 14 days, I'll be able to scan this with no effort at all. It must be really frustrating to be in the Emirates and not have access to "normal" sources, when so fond of designing. And I usually like your scenarios, so this is a reciprocal affaire.

Wouldn't say there is nothing on Midtskogen. With the desciption given in the text, it is quite possible to do an exact depiction. Taken from the book:

1. The Midtskogen position was in a valley, with a corridor about 150 meters wide of fairly open ground (scattered groves) surrounded on both sides by dense pineforest (the Midtskogen, which means middle forest). It ran roughly SW to NE. Snow was rather deep but both road and rail were cleared.

2. Through the valley ran a railway line and a road, same axis. Rail ran south of the road.

3. Also running through was a frozen river, south of the rail. At a point it turned sharply to the north, cutting both rail and road. It was crossed by two bridges.

4. By the northern bridge (i.e. the roadbridge) on the East side of the frozen river, was a large farm, apparently quite near the bridge. The dense forest almost reached the farm from the North.

5. The Norwegian defenders blocked the roadbridge by placing vehicles on it. The railbridge could not carry a vehicle.

6. The Norwegians deployed in three positions, one by the railbridge to the South and two by the roadbridge. They deployed their two HMG in the farm near the roadbridge, overlooking the road to the SE.

7. They were exactly 93 men. The men were recruits from the Guards, members of local rifle associations, participants in a NBC Protection course and about twenty professionals (officers and NCOs, most from the Guards). They had 40 cartridges each, and one rifle. Plus the two HMGs.

8. By 0130, as the Germans arrived, the defensive position was somewhat defunct. Vehicle-borne refugees had arrived through the night. They had been forced to abandon their vehicles and continue on foot. As a consequence, a que of abandoned Vehicles stretched SE along the road, from the blocked bridge. A consequence was that the two HMGs no longer had visual on the rear end of the vehicle column. Another that the end tail was now too far off to create the crossfire intended, between the main positions and the one further south by the railbridge.

9. The Germans arrived, and stopped their vehicles (buses). They were exactly 96 men. Paras and Schiller. Plus Shanghaied Norwegian drivers from the Oslo public transport.

10. Shots were fired and the headlight on the lead German vehicle went out. The other switched off and there was total darkness, intense firing commenced. The Germans discharged flares over the Norwegian positions.

11. The Germans were able to use smg's and handgrenades to suppress the defenders, who were not supported by the machineguns. The Norwegians eventually pulled back from their positions, including the barricade on the bridge, trying to fade into the forest. Germans pursue cautiously and for a short while there was silence.

12. As the Germans advanced on the bridge, order to fire was given to the HMGs, now with visuals on the enemy. The grease (you know, used for maintanence of weapons) had however frozen, so no sound came after the order to fire. The Germans were able to cross the bridge (some ran over the ice) and close in on the farm. Then one of the machineguns start, and at the same time fire starts from the southern position. The Germans go for cover and are pinned. Crawling forward, hurling grenades, the Germans manage to close in. The Machinegun crews dismantled their weapons and pulled out. But only to the edge of the forest, which was pretty close to the North, from where they again started to fire. The Germans did not pursue. Instead, the Germans let out the animals from a barn that had caught fire, and then faded away into the darkness.

13. Nine Norwegians were injured. On the German side a corporal died and Spiller himself was mortally wounded. Lighter wounds not known.

From the description (all of it stolen from the book) it ought to be possible to depict the battle even without a tacmap of it.

But I'll see to your receiving the maps as well.

Cheerio

Dandelion

[Hans]

Wow, good verbal description. Odd no one ever made a map of it. Probably somewhere, someplace.

Thanks for volunteering!

[Andreas]

Originally posted by Dandelion:

Hans, are you still working on this? I just picked up this recently published book the other day - well today in fact. Updated facts and research. Very interesting - for those esoterically inclined.

Cheerio

Dandelion

You mean you managed to get a copy of Ottmer? Where? When? How much? I am going to have to kill you. Wait, did I just say that?

I don't seem to be able to get one for love or money. I have Hubatsch now, but that book is lying at my parent's place in Germany, and I won't see it for another two weeks. And I have a book by a German naval Kriegsberichter called Busch, written in the 60s, called 'Kampf um Norwegens Fjorde', but the Sealion project, Patrick O'Brian, and organising my move to Paris have so far kept me from reading it.

[Other Means]

excuse me but what is "Elverumfullmakt"? google sent me back to this thread, which frankly scared the bejezuz out of me.

[Hans]

Hmmm I'm not sure but that MAY be the secret code word to cause the rising of all German speakers who will then force people to use umlauts and a funny looking B in everything they say or write.

horrible

[Dandelion]

Originally posted by Andreas:

You mean you managed to get a copy of Ottmer? Where? When? How much? I am going to have to kill you. Wait, did I just say that?

I don't seem to be able to get one for love or money. I have Hubatsch now, but that book is lying at my parent's place in Germany, and I won't see it for another two weeks. And I have a book by a German naval Kriegsberichter called Busch, written in the 60s, called 'Kampf um Norwegens Fjorde', but the Sealion project, Patrick O'Brian, and organising my move to Paris have so far kept me from reading it.

You're a compulsive collector of unsellable, unbuyable and barely readable, obscure literature on enigmatic topics. Regrettably, I know no cure for it.

No not Ottmer, sorry. My bargain here (get away from me, it's MINE, MINE) is "April 9", copyright 2004, authors are Tamelander & Zetterling, aided by Frankson, Hjelm, Lundström, Roth - well a number of guys who have also published books and articles on the subject. I have the Swedish language version - none other to be found around here. The good part being that it is rare from day 1

The authors rely a lot on Hubatsch - they tend to spell it Huhatsch but these are Scandinavians most of them - and some on Busch. They use an English translation of the latter - "The Drama of the Scharnhorst". There is some from Kräutler & Springenschmid, Buchner, Ziemke, Kersuady, quite a lot from Derry, a mysterious "Ash" who's book is actually not presented among the sources, some from Moulton, naturally a lot of Tessin in there and all the usual KTBs and Operationsbefehl, Lagebericht, Abendmeldung et cetera collections. Most painful of all, I see a not a little but a lot of microfilm in here with BA/MA numerals that I've missed completely. These must have been recently added from the former Soviets? As it simply couldn't be that these guys are beter than me They've found a lot of company reports filed under F9178051. Allows them a certain level of detail...

Norwegian side counts Björnsen, Hauge, Munthe-Kaas, Sandvik, Bojerud - i.e. the usual retinue plus a "Tarnstrom" (Yank, Texan, but seems to write in either of the Scandinavian languages?).

Well, basically it's all here, they've been very busy these lads. Must be some kind of cooperation project here, but I can't find any info on that. Too bad there were no Poles of Frenchmen involved, that would have rounded things off rather.

Cheerio

Dandelion

[giggles and runs off with his bargain]

PS. Sorry for not coming about to comment Sealion along the lines suggested by e-mail. The project is huuuuge and it has taken me some time to consume it, and understand all ends of it As a US Governor once said, I'll be back.

[Dandelion]

Originally posted by Other Means:

excuse me but what is "Elverumfullmakt"? google sent me back to this thread, which frankly scared the bejezuz out of me.

In the school of Elverum - a tiny hamlet - the Norwegian parliment gathered on April 9 and gave the government extraordinary powers to act in the best interest of the nation in the state of war that existed. Supra-constitutional powers in this case, not normally allowed. Fullmakt means er... letter of authorisition, kind of, or comission. You know if you give your wife a letter that says she can empty your bank account in your name, and sign it, that's a Fullmakt.

The same day, the Norwegian King refused to accept the German suggestion of accepting German presence and protection, saying he'd rather abdicate.

This was the first reaction the Norwegian state was formally capable of, on the invasion. It meant Norway chose to fight. This was not at all certain, before that point. The allies were much relieved, and joined the fray. Your ancestral compatriots can thus be said to have fought and died for the Elverum fullmakt, as it became part of the Allied cause.

Whereas mine of course fought against it...

Try Googling for Eleverum and Fullmakt written apart.

Cheerio

Dandelion

[Other Means]

Originally posted by Dandelion:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Other Means:

excuse me but what is "Elverumfullmakt"? google sent me back to this thread, which frankly scared the bejezuz out of me.

In the school of Elverum - a tiny hamlet - the Norwegian parliment gathered on April 9 and gave the government extraordinary powers to act in the best interest of the nation in the state of war that existed. Supra-constitutional powers in this case, not normally allowed. Fullmakt means er... letter of authorisition, kind of, or comission. You know if you give your wife a letter that says she can empty your bank account in your name, and sign it, that's a Fullmakt.

The same day, the Norwegian King refused to accept the German suggestion of accepting German presence and protection, saying he'd rather abdicate.

This was the first reaction the Norwegian state was formally capable of, on the invasion. It meant Norway chose to fight. This was not at all certain, before that point. The allies were much relieved, and joined the fray. Your ancestral compatriots can thus be said to have fought and died for the Elverum fullmakt, as it became part of the Allied cause.

Whereas mine of course fought against it...

Try Googling for Eleverum and Fullmakt written apart.

Cheerio

Dandelion </font>

[Andreas]

A 'mysterious' Ash?

That him?

Anyway - I don't begrudge you your precious, if only because it is in Swedish, and I do have Hubatsch to look forward to. Four weeks of doing little, and traveling by train a lot are about to start. Bliss!

And I fully agree on the incurability of the collector's disease. well, better then spending money on Wein, Weib und Gesang. Especially since I can not sing.

Thanks for all the info on the book. I get it the day I master Swedish You must be very happy.

[ August 31, 2004, 01:35 PM: Message edited by: Andreas ]

[Dandelion]

LOL! Who the h_ is that?

I am in fact unusually pleased with this book. I have a Swedish wife (another very good reason for frolicing I might add, but I still sing and drink) who is faithfully translating all the difficult words.

But you know, I suspect the original language must be German? It keeps stating "translated into German/never translated into German" on every single Scandinavian source, and no German texts or titles are translated (into Scandinavian) in the book. Why would a Swede or Norwegian care if it was translated into German? The authors seem to presume the reader speaks German - and let me tell you that this cannot be generally presumed up here in the arctic wastes.

Nonetheless, you'd understand anyway I am convinced. It's not all that different. Berlin type nein, Bayrisch type ja, Hamburg pronounciation rules and Vorarlberg melody of speech - add the occasional falcette and wham, you're halfway to Stockholm.

But you're off to Paris instead I hear (gossip). Much looking forward to your imminent access to French official archives. I have tonnes of questions on French units that I've wanted to know for so long now.

Sincerely

Dandelion

[Andreas]

That's Ash from the movie 'Army of Darkness' (German slogan: 'Wenn Du ins Mittelalter gehst, vergiß die Kettensäge nicht').

The flat I finally found (touch wood) is about five minutes walk from Invalides, and therfore the Musée de l'Armée, and while preparing breakfast I can see in the courtyard of the École Militaire. Any idea where the archives are? You can send Mattias to collect the copies.

You would have had an invitation but for your evil baiting me saying it must be a German book. Bah!