How to find PAKs without getting PAKed?

Redwolf · January 27, 2003

Originally posted by RSColonel_131st:
Of course, last alternative is to use Armored Cars or similar fast scouting vehicles, with emphasis of fast movement and cover. They are cheaper as a tank if you lose them, and they might be able to spot the gun without staying to long in the cone of fire.

That doesn't really work in CMBB either. What is needed is a "when shot at, back up, and pop smoke if you can", just like TacOps SOPs allow you to do.

In CMBB the sequence is that the car does not back up when shot at by a gun, even the smallest car shot at by a Pak43 (as opposed to a ISU-122 backing off a Pz IV....), and to make matters worse it turns to the gun, the car rotates in place. With the awfully slow turn rates in CMBB you cannot easily get it back the same way it came anymore, e.g. when it was on a road and is now 45 degrees off. And you cannot fix that with multiple waypoints drawing a curve to the back either because multiple waypoints get delay penalities.

The current order structure and TacAI preferences do not allow realistic gameplay in this regard.

[ January 27, 2003, 04:42 PM: Message edited by: redwolf ]

ParaBellum · January 27, 2003

Originally posted by RSColonel_131st:

Scouting PAK's with infantry can't be that hard. If your enemy has them protected by infantry close by, you can most likely see the gun while you get into the skirmish with infantry.

If your enemy protects them with an infantry belt ahead, chances are his PAK's can't support his Inf. Wipe them out with Tanks and continue Scouting.

Of course, last alternative is to use Armored Cars or similar fast scouting vehicles, with emphasis of fast movement and cover. They are cheaper as a tank if you lose them, and they might be able to spot the gun without staying to long in the cone of fire.

I disagree. A competent opponent will not make such stupid mistakes when placing his AT guns.

He will place his Paks as far back as possible combined with some guns sited for flank shots against advancing enemy tanks.

Your infantry won't be able to close in since long-range HMG fire will pin them down.

His infantry will be in position so that if enemy tanks engage them, they'll get targeted by his AT guns, preferably assisted by TRPs.

'Reverse slope defese' comes to mind.

If you put your infantry in position where enemy tanks can 'wipe them out' with your AT assets unable to interfere there's a serious flaw in your defense plan.

Armoured cars or other lightly armoured/armed vehicles? Why should I bother to open fire on them with my precious AT guns? They do not pose a serious threat for my infantry and won't spot anything while moving fast.

AT rifles will take care of them. Or maybe a light Flak gun (20mm). The AC will be dead before it even sees the enemy.

[ January 27, 2003, 04:42 PM: Message edited by: ParaBellum ]

ParaBellum · January 27, 2003

Originally posted by RSColonel_131st:

Scouting PAK's with infantry can't be that hard. If your enemy has them protected by infantry close by, you can most likely see the gun while you get into the skirmish with infantry.

If your enemy protects them with an infantry belt ahead, chances are his PAK's can't support his Inf. Wipe them out with Tanks and continue Scouting.

Of course, last alternative is to use Armored Cars or similar fast scouting vehicles, with emphasis of fast movement and cover. They are cheaper as a tank if you lose them, and they might be able to spot the gun without staying to long in the cone of fire.

I disagree. A competent opponent will not make such stupid mistakes when placing his AT guns.

He will place his Paks as far back as possible combined with some guns sited for flank shots against advancing enemy tanks.

Your infantry won't be able to close in since long-range HMG fire will pin them down.

His infantry will be in position so that if enemy tanks engage them, they'll get targeted by his AT guns, preferably assisted by TRPs.

'Reverse slope defese' comes to mind.

If you put your infantry in position where enemy tanks can 'wipe them out' with your AT assets unable to interfere there's a serious flaw in your defense plan.

Armoured cars or other lightly armoured/armed vehicles? Why should I bother to open fire on them with my precious AT guns? They do not pose a serious threat for my infantry and won't spot anything while moving fast.

AT rifles will take care of them. Or maybe a light Flak gun (20mm). The AC will be dead before it even sees the enemy.

[ January 27, 2003, 04:42 PM: Message edited by: ParaBellum ]

Gutshot · January 28, 2003

Guys,guys,too much talk,not enough action!Let's debate it on the field! E-m me to discuss pbeming anytime!

Gutshot · January 28, 2003

Guys,guys,too much talk,not enough action!Let's debate it on the field! E-m me to discuss pbeming anytime!

Gaylord Focker · January 28, 2003

Worried about Paks??? Pffft, i don't need anti- tank guns, or armor to ruin the day of a tank crew.

Gaylord Focker · January 28, 2003

Worried about Paks??? Pffft, i don't need anti- tank guns, or armor to ruin the day of a tank crew.

Gaylord Focker · January 28, 2003

I'd like to send another shout out to myself and tell everyone how totaly awsome i am, don't worry i'm keepin it real.

Gaylord Focker · January 28, 2003

I'd like to send another shout out to myself and tell everyone how totaly awsome i am, don't worry i'm keepin it real.

Gutshot · January 28, 2003

Originally posted by M Hofbauer:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Gutshot:
I usually put guns smack behind buildings,they can see zilch forwards,but have two lines of death going obliquely forwards past each side of the house.A few guns sited in a town like this will see the town criss-crossed by these lines like a spiders web!Sit tight and wait for the flies!

or for inevitable death as the enemy infantry comes through the house.

any opponent that sends his tanks unescorted into an enemy urban area doesn't deserve better.

Gutshot · January 28, 2003

Originally posted by M Hofbauer:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Gutshot:
I usually put guns smack behind buildings,they can see zilch forwards,but have two lines of death going obliquely forwards past each side of the house.A few guns sited in a town like this will see the town criss-crossed by these lines like a spiders web!Sit tight and wait for the flies!

or for inevitable death as the enemy infantry comes through the house.

any opponent that sends his tanks unescorted into an enemy urban area doesn't deserve better.

JasonC · January 28, 2003

It depends on the gun vs. tank match up involved. The basic story is that medium tanks are practically required, but not always sufficient.

A lot of the mid war ATGs face tanks of the same era that they can't reliably penetrate from the front, at range. Russian 45s are soon reduced to looking for flanks at 300-500m (you might think 1000, but side angle prevents that), or point blank for frontal shots (100m). The 76mms are better, but still need ranges on the order of 600m against the better tanks they soon face, with 300m hits more likely to kill.

You can't just put the ATGs way back, 400-600 yards, when you need side shots or 300m shots. Their range doesn't extend far enough past the infantry to protect the infantry from the tanks, that way. The panzers just stop at 300-400 yards from the infantry, facing forwards, and blow the hell out of it.

You can arrange cross fires to get flank shots, but with range limits as well, these become quite small affairs. Traps rather than exhaustive coverage. 2 45mm can cross their fires ahead if placed about 200 yards apart, with some coverage beyond each other to the flanks. But a flank shot is only certain in a small area directly ahead of and between them. The flanks are "hope he turns away". With inward "slant", the tanks have to come within quite close to your line - 100m typically, unless the 45s -are- the front line, then maybe twice that - to be engaged this way. If they stand off somewhat, they remain out of reach, but can still hurt defenders and help their infantry forward.

76s are better at crossing fire, because they can protect their fronts at close enough range, and remain dangerous to flanks even at extended distances. Those you can afford to put 200-400 yards behind the infantry. The can reach out enough to give at least "final protective fire" to the line immediately ahead, and crossing fire can find flanks ~500m beyond your position. German 50mm PAK face many of the same issues against T-34s.

The problem with that sort of defense is the trade off of firepower for coverage. You cover the wide areas and get the flank opportunities by putting single guns 400m apart. Throw in some keyholing for life expectancy purposes. But then, what happens when 1 gun is KOed in a many on few, after bagging its first kill? The net deteriorates. A few guns dead and there are no flanking fire chances in some broad area, or a direct route without any 76 close enough to penetrate.

Spotting is an additional issue. The low calibers are hard to locate exactly at longer range - but are only dangerous to light armor at those ranges. The larger guns can hurt you farther, but are also much easier to spot once firing. The thicker the armor facing the ATGs, the worse this dilemma becomes.

Holding fire to close range isn't effective tactically, because it means fewer fire chances and not doing much to protect the rest of the defense. It can also get you killed rapidly, if the guns don't about match the number of the tanks. And at close range, they only do that when it is one tank, pretty much.

Opening up at longer range, they turn to face you and the penetration chance plummets. You need more than one firing at the same spot from two angles at the same time. And then, they take their lumps, kill one under fire, and turn on the other. Which faces front armor without its "buddy" and so becomes helpless again.

PAK get truly effective when you have a gun that can kill any enemy tank at long range - beyond the range of rapid spotting. But the thing is, spotting rises with the caliber. A big enough gun will have an "envelope" where it can do this - shoot even medium tanks and not be fully located, just a sound contact. At such ranges, hit chances against fast movers are low, however.

When a small PAK can kill even at medium to long range, it is at its most effective. It hides relatively well, and kills well. Normally this only happens against thinner vehicles - e.g. T26s, light armor. The Russian 57mm ATG is also pretty good at it, though.

Doctrinally, tank artillery cooperation was supposed to help with this. After roughly locating PAK due to incoming fire, the tanks would get out of LOS or open the range and face front, and then call for artillery on the expected positions. While the barrage was in progess they might close, adding their fire.

In CMBB, artillery is usually too expensive to use this way. You might think "he has to be in that clump of trees nearest the sound contact", but now that there are trenches it just isn't so. Against good cover the lighter forms of arty are marginal to start with. The heavy stuff can do the job, but costs a boatload and you might be dumping it on empty positions.

You can better off closing to full ID range. Infantry ahead can help in that respect, since it seems to turn on closest unit as well as caliber of shooter. Once fully IDed, tank fire, light mortars, or an FO can deal with them rapidly enough - the last being the most expensive way.

My analysis of the PAK vs. tank war in CMBB...

JasonC · January 28, 2003