What!!!! (Hull rotating Bug?) - IT IS A BUG!!!!!

[BadgerDog]

Originally posted by Pud:

Am I missing something, I seem to be the only person who sees this as wrong? ie any tank (stabilised or not) can track and fire to its hearts content at anything moving or not whilst you're speeding along and having to rotate the turrent as fast as it will go. But as soon as the tank stops and rotates in place at 2-3mph the gun can't track a stationary target? (target was trapped on a 10m square tile in my tests)

I'm not sure if it's right or wrong....

Again, I can only try to convey the sense of sitting in one of these ancient beasts as a gunner. I only know that it's incredible difficult to hit much of anything while sitting in the gunner's seat of one of these vintage (non laser/computerized M1A1 Abrams class) vehicles. Your eye is pressed up against the rubber cup of a sighting telescope and your head is constantly being jostled side to side, or pulled back away from the eyepiece due to any kind of vehicle motion at all. Not only that, even if I had a sight picture lock on a target and hollered "ready" (to fire) to the CC, if that damn driver pulled a tiller bar and caused some kind of lateral displacement (hull movment), the first motion was often so much of an exaggerated "jerkiness" due to overcoming the inertia of the tank's weight, that my head would bang against the side of the turret (or the azimuth indicator). I'd then have to start all over and reposition my eye though the telescope, reacquire the target, re-lay the gun, then holler "ready" again. I have to say, even though I held a fairly high gunnery rating, that re-laying exercise probably took me a good 8-10 seconds in the Sherman.

As far as non stabilized guns in motion..... I have no idea how anybody would hit anything at all, even if they were only traveling in a straight line and experiencing no separate hull displacement through driver tiller bar actions. I suppose if the target was at 100 yards and filling the entire sight picture of your telescope, I guess it might be academic... just hit the electrical solenoid for a send and prey shot.

Originally posted by Pud:

Having never driven a tank or gunned one, would it not be far easier to sight a target if you knew you're hull was rotating towards your target? ie dont rotate gun onto turret but stop just before it and let the hull rotation take you gunsight over the target and then just let loose? I do this in tank sims

Yup, the golden rule, on moving targets ... sight where they're going to be, not where they've been. The tracking "mils" off-set indicators for firing on moving targets were next to useless in the Sherman. Pre-lay and sight on a spot they would move into, preferably off a range card (TRP) was the best thing to do.

As far as hull rotation, the same rule would apply. By getting ahead of the driver's pivot turn (because you can out-rotate him in a Sherman on power traverse), you could get ahead of the target, then watch through the sighting telescope as the target came across your sight picture with the hull rotation, although you'd still have to hold counter-rotational deflection of the gun as it will also be moving in unison with the hull rotation whether you like it or not. I still think you'd have to "true up" the telescope's reticule pattern afterwards, unless of course you were right on top of him in bore sight range.

[ February 27, 2003, 10:53 AM: Message edited by: BadgerDog ]

[Pud]

A stationary tank should definitely NOT turn the hull, but instead turn the turret to get off the first shot. If it is in a vulnerable position, then I'd say it's best to maneuver (forward or reverse) while turning to face the frontal armor towards the enemy. [/QB]

Just tested this, tank will rotate turret and hull but stops rotating hull to fire (with only the turret rotating) as long as turret can keep pace with tank without the hull rotating as well.

Still doesnt explain why it cant FIRE at a stationary target if rotating. Still the crucial point is being overlooked in that a plotted rotate means you tank will do nothing to anybody for the complete duration of the time taken to rotate. Hence the shoot and scoot will fail if the target is acquired after you begin your rotate to take advantage of the scoot/reverse.

Ok I will give up on this , Im obviously missing something in not being able to understand why a tank moving at 34mph can track/fire and a tank effectively moving at 2 mph cant. :confused: :confused:

[edit - sorry replaced track with fire, tracking has never been a problem]

[ February 27, 2003, 10:42 AM: Message edited by: Pud ]

[aka_tom_w]

once more

I really don't think this is a bug, IT is a feature to model historically realistic tank gunnery behaviour. IMHO

see my account of it in this thread:

http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=23&t=004981#000002

-tom w

[Pud]

Originally posted by Sgt. Emren:

then I'd say it's best to maneuver (forward or reverse) while turning to face the frontal armor towards the enemy.

Just noticed this, as soon as it does turn to face anybody its gun WILL go into hibination for the duration of that turn and become totally ineffective as a weapon.

Its late 11.45pm, and im about to turn into a pumkin. Perhaps this thread will show me the error in my thinking by morning

[Patrick Moore]

I had two odd hull rotating issues last night...

In one QB I had ordered a panzer IVG to move to it's left. It spotted an advancing T34 directly to it's front at the start of the turn, but proceeded to rotate and carry out my move. The panzer IVG turret counter-rotated (?) to keep pointing at the T34 but never fired a shot!! At about the 30 sec mark the T34 shoots and hits the side hull! hilareous! What happened to my tacAI? or can this be just a random event? (tank commander spotted T34 but forgot to issue "Stop Tank" order?)

In the next QB I order a StugIII to advance to a road and rotate ~30 degrees right in order to advance down the road. The StugIII reaches the road but for some unknown reason it proceeds to rotate 180 degrees right then 150 degrees left! Fortunately, no enemy armor was in the vicinity

[ February 27, 2003, 09:07 PM: Message edited by: Patrick Moore ]

[Soddball]

I can see where BadgerDog is coming from on this, and what he is saying (since he's someone with experience of tank gunning) seems quite sensible. Considering that the crack and elite crew were able to fire sooner than the regular crew in the tests I ran (which were identical to Pud's tests) I (as an ignoramus with no tanking or programming knowledge) will keep quiet about my opinion until more experts turn up.

[BadgerDog]

Let me add one more issue to really confuse everyone....

There was an inherit flaw in the training of Sherman drivers and gunners, which would always lead to the kind of movement oddness that Pud talks about here. The driver was trained to immediately turn into incoming fire, so as to present the thickest forward sloped bow armor of the Sherman towards the enemy. The gunner was simultaneously trained to immediately traverse the turret towards the enemy and engage him with fire in the shortest possible time.

Now, look at Pud's post showing the BOTH T34 hull and turret pointing 90 degrees to the enemy position. If the driver starts his pivot turn (actually, the Sherman couldn't do that due to the lack of the proper differential, so it was actually just a tight turn), plus the gunner also started a rapid traverse, can you imagine the confusion. Usually, the CC overcame this by verbally overriding somebody's training (often the driver), by shouting "driver halt" on the intercom, leaving the gunner to traverse and set up the shot without any hull movement. If he wanted the gunner to stop, he'd holler "gunner steady", letting the hull movement bring the bow around.

In CMBB one can't do that. If either a plotted move or reverse command is present, then there's no override, at least none that I can see. So, I think Pud makes a good point that BTC might want to think about in their next generation product. Actually, I guess this CMBB version could be improved if the movement command cancelled itself (on turreted vehicles), immediately stopping the vehicle and thus permitting the gunner to bring the turret to bear on its own against the enemy vehicle.

Interesting dilemma....

[ February 27, 2003, 12:12 PM: Message edited by: BadgerDog ]

[aka_tom_w]

Good Post BadgerDog

BUT this is my interpretation of what I saw the last time this happened to me:

"In the Balkovzy Surprise (its on the CMBB disk) I was playing the as the Germans

against the Russian AI and I watched in wonder (GOOD Wonder) as my Pz Mk IV

excuted a rotate in place order ONLY in between shots!!

It had a t34 aquired and was pumping rounds into it fast as possible as the t34 was not

firing back because it was targeting another tank. (thats a good thing)

The Pz Mk IV should have been VERY concerned because it got caught with its FULL

flank aspect toward the t34, it had been on a hunt command with the cover arc toward

the t34 so the turret was correctly orientated and it acquired the t34 and stopped to fire

the minute it had LOS PERFECT! (good thing!)

In the next order phase, I deleted the hunt command and ordered ONLY a rotate in

place to bring the frontal aspect toward the t34 (sound tank dueling tactics I figure )

BUT the TAC AI is smarter than that!!!!

During the next minute the tank fired before turning (smart I think!) and then it only did

a Little small 2-3 degree rotate in place while the loader loaded the next round, THEN it

would stop rotating the hull, adjust the turret, AIM, and fire, it did this three more times

before the frontal aspect was toward the intended target. (rotating the hull presumably,

only while the loader was loading)

These guys had NERVES of Steal!! PERFECT tank crew co-ordination!

Unt Hiller!

Pn IVF Commander Veteran GETS my Hero of the Month award or nerves of steal and

bravery! (it helps when you are a Veteran crew and NOT being fired upon)"

I think it makes sense.

given the tank is ONLY rotating.

It would make sense to me that the tank should NOT rotate the hull or the turret AND fire while stationary. Both the hull and turret should rotate incremendallyy inbetween shots (while loading) and BOTH should stop moving to AIM and fire. IMHO

I thought I saw this happen and I think it is amazing and correct that the TAC AI works this way.

-tom w

[tabpub]

In that example, you are using the hunt command, which will have the tank stop to engage the targets. With the reverse or fast commands, the setup is to perform the move no matter what. Firing is secondary. That is why I wish there was a hunt in reverse command. I have played several times where I was reversing away from a numerically superior enemy in a scenario and my units would be blazing away in reverse, firing and missing, while the Russians would stop, fire and sometimes hit. Very annoying.

[tabpub]

In that example, you are using the hunt command, which will have the tank stop to engage the targets. With the reverse or fast commands, the setup is to perform the move no matter what. Firing is secondary. That is why I wish there was a hunt in reverse command. I have played several times where I was reversing away from a numerically superior enemy in a scenario and my units would be blazing away in reverse, firing and missing, while the Russians would stop, fire and sometimes hit. Very annoying.

[nevermind]

Originally posted by Patrick Moore:

I had two odd hull rotating issues last night...

In one QB I had ordered a panzer IVG to rotate left then move. It spotted an advancing T34 directly to it's front at the start of the turn, but proceeded to rotate and carry out my move. The panzer IVG turret counter-rotated (?) to keep pointing at the T34 but never fired a shot!! At about the 30 sec mark the T34 shoots and hits the side hull! hilareous! What happened to my tacAI? or can this be just a random event? (tank commander spotted T34 but forgot to issue "Stop Tank" order?)

The real question is why did you tell your tank to rotate,then move?The way i see it,the move command for a tank is much like move for infantry,except the tank has no fatigue,so why not use hunt(the infanrtys' version of advance) all the time?Even if you had to add an extra way point using hunt,atleast it would have stoped moving and engaged that tank.

About the "bug",a few points:

1)Has anyone considered the rotate speed of the tank in question,as compared to its turret rotate speed?As in one may be fater than,or incapable of keeping up with,the other.

2)I know its a life or death battle,but would you rather steady your tank for a more accurate shot,or fire wildly,while twisting all sort of ways?What i mean is(and this is going to be difficult for me to explain),lets pretend that a tank has one round that they could shoot per every 5 minutes.Now,if you fire a wild shot off at your enemy and miss,he knows he has time to make some extra adjustments to ensure he doesnt miss. BadgerDog ,you clearly have more experience than us,so let me ask you some things.You said that the old sherman tank crews knew the tiger had a slow turret rotate speed(traverse(?)i think its called),did some of the tank crews know how long it took an enemy tank to reload?If nothing else,wouldnt atleast the more experienced crews know?Life or death often came down to a matter of seconds in most cases.So i guess what im trying to say is,which is more important,getting in the best defensive position you can and waiting for a "steady shot" opportunity,or firing as often and inaccuarately as possible?You got the tank into a situation it wasnt/isnt supposed to be in(unaware,moving,exposing its flank or rear).It always wants to engage the enemy with its full armour facing it.Your tank wants to get it silhouette lower and get its main armour to face the threat first and fore most.IMHO,shoot and scoot should be used by only extremely experieneced (maybe even sometimes lucky)players,or when and or what it was designed for,when you are desperate,out gunned,or out numbered.Just my 2 cents,was an interesting discussion,thought id join in You can always do as my name says and....

[ February 27, 2003, 06:06 PM: Message edited by: nevermind ]

[Pud]

Morning all (is here anyway)

I should point out that the AI will rotate, eventually, the hull towards an enemy, pausing to fire. It overcomes the hull rotation bug (it still appears to be that) by itself with the halt/fire thing happening. However if you order a reverse, nothing ever overrides this command since its normally used to escape.

If your tank has any enemy coming into sight at an angle to your vehicle say 90 degrees from an unseen position and you want to either turn the front armour to face it (most would like this) or reverse away with your frontal armour protecting you, you will be unable to fire at all in both cases. So what is effectively happening now is you have to choose between;

1) leave tank side on to the incoming threat and hope your shot hits and kills first, knowing your doing a paperbag impersonation with respect to you armour values

2) turn to meet the threat knowing that you will not be able to shoot at all.

Imaging your tank is a Kingtiger. Side on with 80mm@0 degree armour which can be penetrated by a lowly T70. Do you leave it side on! or Do you risk turning to face the threat and utilise you greatest asset, the frontal 150/50 armour and not defend your self at all?

This situation should not happen. You should be able to do both.

By BFC's silence Im guessing they dont see this as a problem? :confused:

[Pud]

Originally posted by nevermind:

About the "bug",a few points:

1)Has anyone considered the rotate speed of the tank in question,as compared to its turret rotate speed?As in one may be fater than,or incapable of keeping up with,the other.

I have tested this with the fast turret of the T34, medium speed PzIV and slow turret of the Tiger.

All never shoot if the hull is doing any rotation.

Basically Hull rotation prevents gun from firing no matter what the target, no matter what the threat. As I said I do not believe hull rotation would make a shot at a stationary target harder than trying to hit a target if your travelling at 34mph across terrain and having to rotate you turret at maximum speed to keep track and still fire at your normal rate of fire.

[edit - this bug has nothing to do with accuracy or chance to hit. Do the test yourself, have a tank rotate, in order to reverse, 10m from a building (what the heck, make it the biggest one you can) and target the building, my guess is it wont fire until its stopped rotating, lends new meaning to "cant hit the side of a barn" - im at work ,shhhhhhhh , so cant test this. I assume area fire is still subject to this bug and would be very surprised if its not]

[ February 27, 2003, 06:53 PM: Message edited by: Pud ]

[nevermind]

Originally posted by Pud:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by nevermind:

About the "bug",a few points:

1)Has anyone considered the rotate speed of the tank in question,as compared to its turret rotate speed?As in one may be fater than,or incapable of keeping up with,the other.

I have tested this with the fast turret of the T34, medium speed PzIV and slow turret of the Tiger.

All never shoot if the hull is doing any rotation.

Basically Hull rotation prevents gun from firing no matter what the target, no matter what the threat. As I said I do not believe hull rotation would make a shot at a stationary target harder than trying to hit a target if your travelling at 34mph across terrain and having to rotate you turret at maximum speed to keep track and still fire at your normal rate of fire.

[edit - this bug has nothing to do with accuracy or chance to hit. Do the test yourself, have a tank rotate, in order to reverse, 10m from a building (what the heck, make it the biggest one you can) and target the building, my guess is it wont fire until its stopped rotating, lends new meaning to "cant hit the side of a barn" - im at work ,shhhhhhhh , so cant test this. I assume area fire is still subject to this bug and would be very surprised if its not] </font>

[Pud]

The only reason I gave the example of the moving tank was that its turret can still fire while rotating (very fast). Im no mathemeatician but a tank moving at 34mp targeting an object 50m away certainly looks like its rotating faster that the very slow rate needed to overcome a hull rotating. All tanks can rotate their turret to keep track of a target when hull rotating, but not all tanks can rotate their turret to keep pace with a target 50m away when they are travelling fast, therefor you can be assured the speed needed to rotate on the move is more than one the spot

[nevermind]

Originally posted by Pud:

The only reason I gave the example of the moving tank was that its turret can still fire while rotating (very fast). Im no mathemeatician but a tank moving at 34mp targeting an object 50m away certainly looks like its rotating faster that the very slow rate needed to overcome a hull rotating. All tanks can rotate their turret to keep track of a target when hull rotating, but not all tanks can rotate their turret to keep pace with a target 50m away when they are travelling fast, therefor you can be assured the speed needed to rotate on the move is more than one the spot

Easy tiger,save the fight for the people who dont think its a bug.About the other bit,that is why i said it depended on the situation.Also,and this should prove how poor at math i am,if the target tank were 500m away,would the rotaion speed be the same or less?Might be one of those optical illusion kinnda things.

:confused:

[tar]

Well, I can see both Pud and Tom_W's points. But to the extent that Tom_W has a point about it being proper behavior, it seems to indicate that the current "shoot on the move" behavior is way too tolerant.

Perhaps the solution is to make tanks that are moving act much more like they do with the rotation case? Hmm, maybe not. How about something that lets either movement or rotation be interrupted (by the game engine, not human intervention) in order to allow shooting?

It seems from Badgerdog's comments that the preferred shooting method even with gyrostabilization was from a halt. Perhaps the gyrostabilizer effect should just be to substantially reduce the amount of time required to lay the gun and get the shot off after the halt?

[Makes The Jelly Judder]

I think this is very interesting, I will now use a short hunt command to rotate my tanks into the correct position and then reverse (At least it will stop rotating to fire then), seems to me that changing direction whilst reversing or moving is fatal for a tank as it will not shoot whilst turning, using hunt will solve this.

Looks like we need new commands "Rotate but stop to shoot", and "Reverse Hunt"

[Florian Gross]

Hi my two cents on this topic. to my mind this is no bug. having read badgerdog's exps on tank gunning and keeping in mind what nevermind said, if you have your flank or rear exposed you probably made a wrong tactical decision, wouldn't it be gamey to be able to negate the tactical mistakes you made and be able to fire while getting your front towards the enemy and firing rounds after rounds. you'd never be able to take out a tiger.

[Pud]

Sorry Easytarget, I didnt mean anything against you at all, sorry if my post had any tone, it was not intended that way at all, damn this internet thing for being the cold place that it is!

Yes a target further away does require a slower rotation speed to keep track of when compared to a close object when travelling perpendicular to it.

Makes the jelly Judder - This all can be fixed by allowing the gun to fire if hull rotating, ok apply some effect to accuracy much like when rotating when moving but dont prohibit it from firing. This just seems illogical. In combat im sure going to let off a round if a wespe if pointing its 105 at me rather than "nah just hang on a minute, dont shoot yet Joe, Fred is still moving the hull around for a better look"

[nevermind]

Originally posted by Pud:

Sorry Easytarget,

Hes a nice person from what ive seen/heard so im not taking this an an insult,i guess.BTW,i was joking also,i always am,i guess i forgot the smiley at the end.

{edited to say}

Yes i am joking around about your typo,god know i have many.

[ February 27, 2003, 08:54 PM: Message edited by: nevermind ]

[Patrick Moore]

Originally posted by nevermind:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Patrick Moore:

I had two odd hull rotating issues last night...

In one QB I had ordered a panzer IVG to rotate left then move. It spotted an advancing T34 directly to it's front at the start of the turn, but proceeded to rotate and carry out my move. The panzer IVG turret counter-rotated (?) to keep pointing at the T34 but never fired a shot!! At about the 30 sec mark the T34 shoots and hits the side hull! hilareous! What happened to my tacAI? or can this be just a random event? (tank commander spotted T34 but forgot to issue "Stop Tank" order?)

The real question is why did you tell your tank to rotate,then move?The way i see it,the move command for a tank is much like move for infantry,except the tank has no fatigue,so why not use hunt(the infanrtys' version of advance) all the time?Even if you had to add an extra way point using hunt,atleast it would have stoped moving and engaged that tank.

About the "bug",a few points:

1)Has anyone considered the rotate speed of the tank in question,as compared to its turret rotate speed?As in one may be fater than,or incapable of keeping up with,the other.

2)I know its a life or death battle,but would you rather steady your tank for a more accurate shot,or fire wildly,while twisting all sort of ways?What i mean is(and this is going to be difficult for me to explain),lets pretend that a tank has one round that they could shoot per every 5 minutes.Now,if you fire a wild shot off at your enemy and miss,he knows he has time to make some extra adjustments to ensure he doesnt miss. BadgerDog ,you clearly have more experience than us,so let me ask you some things.You said that the old sherman tank crews knew the tiger had a slow turret rotate speed(traverse(?)i think its called),did some of the tank crews know how long it took an enemy tank to reload?If nothing else,wouldnt atleast the more experienced crews know?Life or death often came down to a matter of seconds in most cases.So i guess what im trying to say is,which is more important,getting in the best defensive position you can and waiting for a "steady shot" opportunity,or firing as often and inaccuarately as possible?You got the tank into a situation it wasnt/isnt supposed to be in(unaware,moving,exposing its flank or rear).It always wants to engage the enemy with its full armour facing it.Your tank wants to get it silhouette lower and get its main armour to face the threat first and fore most.IMHO,shoot and scoot should be used by only extremely experieneced (maybe even sometimes lucky)players,or when and or what it was designed for,when you are desperate,out gunned,or out numbered.Just my 2 cents,was an interesting discussion,thought id join in You can always do as my name says and.... </font>

[aka_tom_w]

Originally posted by ed0r1:

Hi my two cents on this topic. to my mind this is no bug. having read badgerdog's exps on tank gunning and keeping in mind what nevermind said, if you have your flank or rear exposed you probably made a wrong tactical decision, wouldn't it be gamey to be able to negate the tactical mistakes you made and be able to fire while getting your front towards the enemy and firing rounds after rounds. you'd never be able to take out a tiger.

Hey NewGuy!

Good Point!!

I agree completely!

"if you have your flank or rear exposed you probably made a wrong tactical decision, wouldn't it be gamey to be able to negate the tactical mistakes you made and be able to fire while getting your front towards the enemy and firing rounds after rounds. you'd never be able to take out a tiger"

Absolutley Goddamn Right!

-tom w

[Pud]

Since the question my tactics has come up, here is what happened. I knew the Marder/Wespe was there, spotted by some advance infantry in trees. He was firing at another target to my right (a mortar). i decided to fast drive to his right with covered arc command at him. The down fall of my plan is that in the few seconds it takes to actually fire at the marder my T34 began to rotate to reverse (since I wanted my sloped front at him).

Being unaware that a rotating vehicle cant fire my plan was foolproof, so I thought. In the 20 seconds or so that it took for my T34 to stop & rotate he had turned his SP to face me and fired.

Had I not rotated to reverse he would be dead, plain and simple. I died becuase of the bug, nothing to do with bad tactics. yes there is a tone here. Im willing to take defeat through stupidity or bad luck but not when there is an apparent problem with the game.

You shouldnt impose a penalty to stop the gun firing when rotating just to make side shots on tigers more vunerable? Thats a bizare :confused:

[ February 27, 2003, 09:22 PM: Message edited by: Pud ]

[Kanonier Reichmann]

Hey Pud! What tree mod are you using?

Regards

Jim R.