Pud Posted February 26, 2003 Share Posted February 26, 2003 I have a T34/85 moving forward, to its left (45 degrees) is a SP?. I gain LOS and rotate my gun at it. The SP hasnt LOS yet. The T34 completes it move forward and then starts its plotted reverse away, still with los but still no shot fired. The SP now has LOS, rotates 40 degrees aims and fires killing my T34/85. My T34 was regular crews, unbuttoned aiming at what appeared to be a Wespe. It had a clear LOS/Red target line, gun pointing directly at the SP for around 20 seconds (more if you include turret rotation towards target. My only guess is that it didnt fire because the hull was rotating to begin its reverse move. Is this a bug in that the gun cant fire if the hull is rotating? I recall seeing this at times in CMBO. [ February 27, 2003, 06:11 AM: Message edited by: Pud ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flamingknives Posted February 26, 2003 Share Posted February 26, 2003 It might be that while it is moving, the chance of hitting the target is so remote that the crew didn't bother to fire 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pud Posted February 27, 2003 Author Share Posted February 27, 2003 Ok this is a bug!!!!! Just tested it with a ammoless marder stuck on an island with a T34/85 50m away, facing oposite direction. Give the T34 a reverse order away from marder (ie in its current direction) even though it has clear los (no terrain except grass, 50m) and attains target in 5 seconds it spends the rest of the whole turn just pointing at the marder while rotating the hull. It ONLY gets to fire onceit has stopped rotating and begins to reverse, around the 58 second mark. I cant see why it wouldnt fire (at all) unless this is a bug, tracking a target horizontally (rotating relative to hull) would be far easier than tracking a moving target over terrain from a moving tank, as both target and tank would be moving both vertically and horizontally. Please fix this as it is effectively a game destroying bug. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soddball Posted February 27, 2003 Share Posted February 27, 2003 Originally posted by Pud: Please fix this as it is effectively a game destroying bug. Game destroying? Mmm. Perhaps a little hyperbole? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pud Posted February 27, 2003 Author Share Posted February 27, 2003 Game destroying, yep. A rotating tanks is totally unable to even fire it MG. As a reverse order is almost never cancelled by the AI due to situation it is impossible to avoid unless reversing directly down you forward move path. [edit] - ie it makes the reverse command a command that can never be used in combat if it involves anything other than a backtrack move directly from where you came. This bug would also account for why my tiger never fired at a T70 40m away in my other current game and allowed it to get a free shot (luckily bounced) A bug like this has huge consequences to tactics. [ February 27, 2003, 06:43 AM: Message edited by: Pud ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soddball Posted February 27, 2003 Share Posted February 27, 2003 I'm trying to replicate the problem you're describing through the scenario editor but I can't. I managed to get a T34 to rotate and fire, and get it to reverse and fire. Can you email your 'test' scenario over to me and I'll see if I can understand what you're doing? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pud Posted February 27, 2003 Author Share Posted February 27, 2003 Setup, this time I set it parallel but with a reverse away order, this is so target acquisition is fast. Target acquired at 9 second, note range is 49m First shot happens a second or 2 after the tanks starts to actually reverse. 34 sec mark. You can prob say theres ways around it but the fact is a clear shot will not occur only because the hull is rotating. Thats a bug. [ February 27, 2003, 07:44 AM: Message edited by: Pud ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Industrializer Posted February 27, 2003 Share Posted February 27, 2003 agree, I've seen this too, even if the gun is pointed straight at an enemy, as long as the hull is still rotating the tank wont fire. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soddball Posted February 27, 2003 Share Posted February 27, 2003 Pud, I just tried the design you posted on here, firstly with a crack crew, then with an elite crew. The crack crew opened fire with the machine gun after 24 seconds, and the elite crew opened fire with the machine gun after 20 seconds. Both tanks held off for another 5 or 6 seconds before firing the 85mm shell. I wonder if it's something to do with how difficult the shot is to take whilst the hull is rotating? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BadgerDog Posted February 27, 2003 Share Posted February 27, 2003 Doh! I'm a little confused..... So, what's the moral here, or workaround? Does this mean that ONLY a T34 tank will NEVER fire at a clear LOS based target, regardless of it's pointing direction of the main gun, if the hull is in the process of moving forward or backward or rotating in-place? Is there a workaround to prevent the hull from moving so the gun will fire? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soddball Posted February 27, 2003 Share Posted February 27, 2003 Originally posted by BadgerDog: Doh! I'm a little confused..... So, what's the moral here, or workaround? Does this mean that ONLY a T34 tank will NEVER fire at a clear LOS based target, regardless of it's pointing direction of the main gun, if the hull is in the process of moving forward or backward or rotating in-place? Is there a workaround to prevent the hull from moving so the gun will fire? I just had a go with a Panzer IVJ against an Su-76. The same thing occurs. Interestingly, it also occured with a 'move' order about 90 degrees. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pud Posted February 27, 2003 Author Share Posted February 27, 2003 I somehow think its a pure bug. I tested same map, but this time for the T34 to drive past. I noted that the T34 acquired the target but since there was still alittle rotating it didnt fire until the Fast move order came into effect. Fisrt shot fired shortly after commencing forawrd movement, missed. It had fired twice while speeding along, this is the second shot, its still managed to rotate turret and fire whilest moving in a straight line. It only doesnt shoot if theres any rotate of any kind for the hull. The chance to hit whilst driving "Fast" must be considerable less than "just rotating" on the spot. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WWB Posted February 27, 2003 Share Posted February 27, 2003 I suspect it will not shoot because it is rotating the turret to compensate for the rotating hull. Which actually makes sense. Damn hard to aim the shot when you are concentrating on keeping the turret lined up. WWB 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pud Posted February 27, 2003 Author Share Posted February 27, 2003 I just had a horrible thought, this bug can be used to kill armour. You spy a enemy tank that is stationary. You just drive you T34 fast as hell (stright line) past the tiger. You turret can turn fast and will track the enemy, the oponent tank (since its stationary) will rotate both the hull and the turret, thus rendering it unable to fire. All you basiclly do is drive you T34 in circle around teh heavy tank untill you penitrate, it will prob never fire. So besides making shoot and scoot useless (see my first post , thats what I was doing at the time) it also introduces a bug of invunerability in tank combat. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pud Posted February 27, 2003 Author Share Posted February 27, 2003 Originally posted by wwb_99: I suspect it will not shoot because it is rotating the turret to compensate for the rotating hull. Which actually makes sense. Damn hard to aim the shot when you are concentrating on keeping the turret lined up. WWB ???? Not as hard as firing whilst travelling at 30mph and rotating the turret and getting 2 shots of compared to none. [edit - The rotation required of the turret to compensate for a slowly rotating hull is minimal compared to rotating the turret as fast as you can to compensate for the moving tank across the target] [ February 27, 2003, 08:35 AM: Message edited by: Pud ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BadgerDog Posted February 27, 2003 Share Posted February 27, 2003 Originally posted by wwb_99: I suspect it will not shoot because it is rotating the turret to compensate for the rotating hull. Which actually makes sense. Damn hard to aim the shot when you are concentrating on keeping the turret lined up. WWB Ahhhh... Now that I understand the point that Pud is making (I'm just a little old and slow... hehehe), although I can't speak for being a gunner in a T34, the demonstrated issue he raises is certainly the actual case in real life with a Sherman (M4A2E8 model). We often practiced on the tank MTR with full motion fire and movement, with GGS both "on" and "off". There was NO auto lock and hold on any tank sights of that era that I know of, but on the Sherman we had to use the traverse and elevation controls (manual or hydraulic) to hold a sight lock on any target. Now, here's the rub. If the damn driver was responding to a CC command of "driver left" or "driver right" while I was attempting to lay the gun on a target (bore sight or range guesstimate), it was almost impossible to hold the reticule pattern from the sighting telescope on the target until he stopped. Most often I couldn't get a visual lock and press my foot on the master weapon firing solenoid until he stopped his hull rotation. Sometimes it was so annoying, I'd holler over the intercom to Trooper Tendler (he was our driver)... "Tendler, stop F&*^%g moving A$&^(^%e, I can't lock him up!". Perhaps there's more realism then we realize and it's not an actual bug. I know that in listening to many of our vets who fought with Shermans from Normandy on through to the end of the war, they often talked about staying in lateral motion with their Shermans against Tigers. They tried to keep his turret traversing while they all fired (halted first, then move again) in unison as they were moving sideways around him. They said he (the Tigers) often didn't fire while traversing and rotating the hull (I presume to keep frontal armor exposed towards the Sherman moving?) Just some thoughts to add to the discussion..... [ February 27, 2003, 08:57 AM: Message edited by: BadgerDog ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pud Posted February 27, 2003 Author Share Posted February 27, 2003 Ok another test. This time with a turretless tank (so theres no argument about having to rotate the turret in a stationary tank) I basically just drove a T34 around in circles of a PzIV/70. It (Pz) never fired if it was rotating. So a turret has nothing to do with it. Its basically if the hull is rotating it will not shoot. This is a bug, you can put all sorts of arguments forward but a tank shouldnt be able to shoot if the turret is rotating (be it perhaps badly) regardless of what the hull is doing, be it speeding along at 34mph or rotating at 2 mph. I know which should be easier to achieve a kill on. [edit - I take your points BadgerDog but I dont think they would apply here as the tank is stationary, good to hear from a real tank jockey] Its prob something to do with turretless guns not firing whilst rotating (standard practice i believe) which has been carried over to turreted vehicles which shouldnt be the case. [edited typo] [ February 27, 2003, 09:19 AM: Message edited by: Pud ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BadgerDog Posted February 27, 2003 Share Posted February 27, 2003 Originally posted by Pud: ???? Not as hard as firing whilst travelling at 30mph and rotating the turret and getting 2 shots of compared to none. [edit - The rotation required of the turret to compensate for a slowly rotating hull is minimal compared to rotating the turret as fast as you can to compensate for the moving tank across the targetActually, it was certainly easier for me to fire on the move in the Sherman using GGS, providing the driver maintained a straight line "tack" with minimal lateral hull deviation. Our master weapon was the 76 mm with a coaxial mounted 30 cal. It was gyroscopically stabilized so one could fire "on the move" with a stable gun platform. We used to engage targets on the MTR at about 600-800 yards while moving, but the preferred firing mode was from a stopped position. Our Sherman used "power traverse" which could rotate the turret 360 degrees in 17 seconds. It had a manual horizontal wheel backup system, placed at the gunner's right hand, but it would take almost 2 1/2 minutes to get the turret around 360 degrees. Having served with a lot of vets who went through WWII in Shermans (75 mm Mk4), they would always comment that the German armor did not have power traverse, especially the Tiger. The result was that one of their major tactics was to hunt in two's and to keep moving laterally to the Tiger while firing, so as to stay ahead of his traversing speed with the 88 mm. They also said that their 75 mm's would simply bounce off Tigers at 800 yards, so they always tried to get around their rear though high speed maneuvering in attempts to get a rear aspect shot, which they said was the most vulnerable part of the Tiger. Just some ramblings from an old Sherman warrior. Hope they help. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pud Posted February 27, 2003 Author Share Posted February 27, 2003 Stabilised gun, sure, but on a long barrelled T34 that wasnt stabilised it would be the other way round(? please correct me if im wrong, Im was navy man not a grunt) Travelling along at 34mph with that very long gun and rotating the turret at top speed compared to stationary and having to rotate it at 2mph. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BadgerDog Posted February 27, 2003 Share Posted February 27, 2003 Originally posted by Pud: I basically just drove a T34 around in circles of a PzIV/70. It (Pz) never fired if it was rotating. So a turret has nothing to do with it. Its basically if the hull is rotating it will not shoot. Sorry to belabor the point Pud... But, in the case of a turreted vehicle, isn't the reason he doesn't shoot perhaps because it's virtually impossible to get a stable "gun lay", on a target that's moving laterally while simultaneously the gunner is traversing, while simultaneously the driver is rotating the hull? As far as using a turret-less tank, I'm not sure that makes any difference. How would the gunner (who's not the driver controlling the gun's lateral axis movement.. Correct?), possibly maintain enough of a stable sighting picture "gun lay" to get off a decent shot. I would think that depending upon the speed of the target moving laterally versus the speed of the hull rotating, that it also may be that the actual "gun lay" isn't catching up with the target's current location. In other words, the gun is constantly lagging behind the targets motion, even the "red line" used by CMBB says it has a LOS lock. That might only be a representative approximation? Anyway, thanks for all of the testing and pointing out the anomaly. Good information to keep in mind when playing the game. [ February 27, 2003, 09:33 AM: Message edited by: BadgerDog ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BadgerDog Posted February 27, 2003 Share Posted February 27, 2003 Originally posted by Pud: Stabilised gun, sure, but on a long barrelled T34 that wasnt stabilised it would be the other way round(? please correct me if im wrong, Im was navy man not a grunt) Travelling along at 34mph with that very long gun and rotating the turret at top speed compared to stationary and having to rotate it at 2mph. Absolutely correct! We used to practice on the MTR with GGS "on" and "off". With it "off" and trying to engage any target whole moving was virtually impossible. Many times with it "off", I'd return back to the tank bay from the MTR after a "fire on the move" drill, without having fired any primary ammo. I suppose though that in a real shooting war, I would have blasted a lot of ammo in the "bad guys" direction whether I had a good sight picture or not. My hope would have been that I'd scare him to death. Just some sideband information, but elevation gyrostabilizer was tested in April, 1941, first introduced on the 37mm guns of the light tanks, and introduced into the production M3 medium tank in January, 1942. Tests indicated that it resulted in 60% hits when the vehicle was moving at 10mph. The stabilizer was available on even the first models of Shermans, and reportedly gave it a distinct advantage over the German Mk IV. The crews were instructed to destroy the device if the tank had to be abandoned. Despite the tests and the official position, most crews interviewed preferred to fire from a stable (halted) position. To add personal experience, I have fired hundreds of APDS and APSH rounds from an M4A2E8 Sherman in motion on the MTR wit GGS "on" at speeds of 10mph to 20mph. I found it highly effective for targets at less than 1,000 yds. I actually got a few hits out to 1,500 yds, but although I'd never admit it to fellow gunners, it was pure luck. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pud Posted February 27, 2003 Author Share Posted February 27, 2003 Originally posted by BadgerDog: As far as using a turret-less tank, I'm not sure that makes any difference. How would the gunner (who's not the driver controlling the gun's lateral axis movement.. Correct?), possibly maintain enough of a stable sighting picture "gun lay" to get off a decent shot. I would think that depending upon the speed of the target moving laterally versus the speed of the hull rotating, that it also may be that the actual "gun lay" isn't catching up with the target's current location. In other words, the gun is constantly lagging behind the targets motion,... Yep I can see this as being the reason for a turretless gun having problems but isnt that the very reason what the turret is designed to overcome? So it can independantly track a target regardless of what the driver/hull is doing? Am I missing something, I seem to be the only person who sees this as wrong? ie any tank (stabilised or not) can track and fire to its hearts content at anything moving or not whilst you're speeding along and having to rotate the turrent as fast as it will go. But as soon as the tank stops and rotates in place at 2-3mph the gun can't track a stationary target? (target was trapped on a 10m square tile in my tests) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pud Posted February 27, 2003 Author Share Posted February 27, 2003 Having never driven a tank or gunned one, would it not be far easier to sight a target if you knew you're hull was rotating towards your target? ie dont rotate gun onto turret but stop just before it and let the hull rotation take you gunsight over the target and then just let loose? I do this in tank sims 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Sgt. Emren Posted February 27, 2003 Share Posted February 27, 2003 Very interesting, Pud. I'm not it's worth calling a bug, since IF a rotating tank (hull rotating one way, gun counter-rotating to keep the target fixed) will have a very low probability to hit anyways. What I would like to know is if this: ... the oponent tank (since its stationary) will rotate both the hull and the turret, thus rendering it unable to fire. is verified and correct. This is, IMO a much more serious issue. A stationary tank should definitely NOT turn the hull, but instead turn the turret to get off the first shot. If it is in a vulnerable position, then I'd say it's best to maneuver (forward or reverse) while turning to face the frontal armor towards the enemy. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aka_tom_w Posted February 27, 2003 Share Posted February 27, 2003 I have seen this in CMBB I posted a Thread somewhere indicating I was AMAZED at the accuracy of the NOT firing while the hull was rotating. I watched a tank move the turret and rotate the hull simultaneously and not fire while moving. I thought this was Brilliant! The gunner will ONLY fire while the hull and turret are NOT moving. My guess is that the game was designed that way to be realistic. This is not a bug IT is a feature to model historically realistic tank gunnery behaviour. IMHO see my account of it in this thread: http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=23&t=004981#000002 -tom w [ February 27, 2003, 10:29 AM: Message edited by: aka_tom_w ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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