help with quick battles; attacking russians

[JasonC]

Small quick battles against a Russian AI, German force mixes and tactics to use in them, how winnable they are, etc.

Open for anybody to comment on in a substantive manner, and has been for weeks. I heard a few can't be dones and a few change the conditions comments early on, since then nobody addressing the substance other than someone. Everyone else is only interesting in talking about that someone. Presumably because they don't care a lick about CM or helping the original poster or anybody else with similar questions, etc.

[Corvidae]

It seems to me that the only condition that makes a battle unwinnable is TIME.

With enough time I could take a broken platoon of green early partisans, Rally them, and beat a whole battalion of crack SS infantry.

In every battle against the AI, it has been time that has made the difference.

And in PBEM I have won against far better players, because there wasnt enough time for them finish me off. (I have also lost to a few less experienced players)

Every battle in the game disk is a winnable battle, no matter which side you take. Its just a matter of figuring out the right moves. If I cant figure out the right moves, this doesnt make me any less worthy, It just means that I PERSONALY cant figure it out just yet. It means that I missed something, and I need to go back and try again.

There are a few battles on the disk that seem profoundly stacked to favour one side, but I have won playing the other side. The AI can always be beaten. (and usualy quite easily)

For players used to C&C or Warcraft, the decidedly realistic human behaviour of units in CM may be a shock. GET USED TO IT. These are not mindless drones that march obediantly to their deaths. A CM squad is 6 to 12 rational human beings who all want to go home. They have names. They get tired, they get confused,,, and if ambushed on a road march, they will probably panic.

[JasonC]

Time is rarely decisive in CM QBs. No you can't win against a crack SS battalion with a partisan platoon and 10 hours on the clock. Ammo does not rally, and that small a formation simply can't break a single company let alone a battalion, no matter how much time it has.

QBs are about trading through the enemy force by taking out more than you lose or expend, in morale "wind" or ammo terms. The AI is pretty bad at choosing match ups to make those trades happen at favorable ratios. Whether the player beats the machine is generally a matter of whether he knows how to look for and get those favorable ratios himself.

Some things the AI gets because they do not require much finesse - the defender's cover differential, the strength of a thicker tank, the firepower of guns firing from hiding. To beat it you need to minimize the impact of those factors while maximizing the favorable match ups you get yourself.

Chief among those are the right weapon for a given target, ganging up on the most vulnerable units, not wasting ammo on mere pinning fire, and staying in cover when threatened by effective weapons but leaving it aggressively when only ineffective ones are left.

The single thing most new players need to learn to beat the AI consistently is the dominance of pure firepower. New players focus far too much on trying to move places, on trying to take things, on the map and the flags (and the clock, which is inessential compared to loss trade ratios).

This leads them to rush, to spend too much time moving and not enough shooting, getting a poor average cover for their men and taking lots more incoming than they need to. Instead they need to learn to KO the known enemy before moving to reveal the next, and need to think of the purpose of movement as discovering targets or setting them up for lopsided firefights, not as trying to grab things or "own" the map.

The first thing I did to improve the reported performance of others was to pick specific weapons that give high firepower at range when used on the proper target for them. Against the AI in particular, your best shooters can expect to run through several times their own cost without loss. And that is how you beat it.

That can mean tanks too thick for his lightest AT shooters to hurt, it can mean just having a deep and effective HE load, it can mean large blast ratings, it can mean well armed and high quality infantry, holding its fire until close enough to "punch, not tickle".

It emphatically does not mean rushing, nor does it require twice the standard time limits. Get you eye off the clock and off the flags. Instead look at the enemy numbers and get it moving downward. And at your own total firepower potential, using all of it, on targets each sort of weapon can hurt.

[jBrereton]

Indeed, Jason.

Flags are useful for a few victory points, but if your opponent has overlapping MG and AT fields over said flag, then the hundred-or-so points you'll get for taking the flag will be instantly meaningless when you lose your only tank, or a whole platoon of infantry.

[Corvidae]

Flags? you mean those silly things the AI always acumulates around.?

They are a usefull tool for showing where the AI will go, and where my bombardment should fall at about the 3/4 point.

Ok JasonC ,, so maybe I exadurated a wee bit about the partisan vs SS bit, Gimme a break bub.

(or maybe I didnt exadurate, Maybe I can do it?)

(must test this hypothesis)

[DavidFields]

Well, to be on topic: I think we have determined that if one puts a German HMG or two, in non-obvious places, covering open terrain, the Russian (if AI) is going to have a very hard time breaking that area.

Particularly if the Russian force is mostly infantry, of course. One can then pick whether to engage at range, just to break units and shut-down that sector, or wait for units to close (if they are weak, and seem to have no overwatch), and kill them.

Even if the infantry has indirect support, a customary counter for the HMG, the AI will not target anything until HMG is IDed (I believe--though I don't know what level ID is needed). Often the AI can be faked out by showing a non-essential unit/position elsewhere--since it seems to indirect-target the first thing available. (Still, indirect fire is still why an HMG in Rocky or a a building is better than woods)

Even with armor/infantry Russian units, the AI has extreme difficulty, because the HMG strips the infantry, buttons the tanks, and the AI will be more likely than a human to just blunder the armor forward, making it extremely vulnerable to any AT asset. To see/kill it, the Russian armor has to blunder almost exactly on the HMG, where one can, possibly, just shut down the HMG until the armor goes away.

In short, if the visibility is good, and the terrain reasonably open, I think a German HMG can exploit the AI weaknesses to the hilt. Additionally, there is the ammo load. Can anyone think of other units that one can fire almost continuously during a 20 turn scenario?

[Now back to Descent on Maleme--fighting against the CW, but you might see why I am thinking about German HMG vs the AI]

[supporting evidence for the above: JasonC has a training scenario which shows how even human players have a tough time with a HMG, and I believe a recent AAR he did featured German HMGs prominently in demolishing enemy infantry]

[ October 20, 2006, 09:26 AM: Message edited by: Rankorian ]

[JasonC]

Here is an AAR for another one of these. This time May 1942, combined arms vs. combined arms, Germans are mech and Russians are rifle. 400 point size with German attack battle type, terrain is village moderate gentle slopes and light damage.

I took 2 Marder IIIs early, one of them green to stay under the point budget, the other regular. Vet FW-190 air support, and a veteran sIG. Plus 2 veteran Panzer rifle platoons, the type without any 50mm mortars.

I didn't know the enemy force of course, but it turned out to be 1 BT-5, 1 T-38M2 tankette with 50 cal, 1 85mm AA (!), and 2 25mm AA. Plus an ampulet, a pioneer platoon, and a recon C platoon, and a few obstacles including some AP mines.

In the event the air support showed up late, turn 12 the first flyover. There were still useful things he might have done but he didn't do them. His bomb missed the tankette the turn before it died to the green Marder, with collateral infantry hits to some crews of abandoned guns and vehicles etc. Then he strafed dead tanks. His final strafing pass targeted a German infantry squad in the open. Not the Luftwaffe's finest hour, but those are the breaks when you take it.

The sIG on the other hand had a grand old time, though it had a hairy moment or two dueling the 85mm, and had trouble with slope and grazing issues on several occasions. The reason is the objective flag was in some woods that were well back from the military crest of a ridge etc. Spent 4 minutes early one to put 1 shell in the woods of a squad of pioneers shooting at my infantry, too. But it still racked up 23 men and 2 guns, including the 85mm - had to switch the aim point slightly as use area fire to get that one (a firing path more clear of trees), but all good in the end. It also fired 4 of its 6 smoke shells to good effect on two occasions, as directed. (Another time it refused to fire it and switched to HE on a different target etc).

As for the Marders, they fired a bit of HE early before the 85mm unmasked. When it did it KOed the regular one with like its second shot, so that one died without getting anything. The other played cat and mouse with the Russian armor, which avoided LOS to it while getting side angles to my infantry for MG fire etc. But it bagged the BT-5 relatively early. Didn't get the T-38 until it ran clear into the middle of the village, but on turn 13 it got that too. It finished off with a move over to the objective wood, about 80m out, using the last of its MG ammo. Only anxious moment it had came from the ampulet, which hit it once from the side but did NSD. Infantry pinned the thing and the sIG then KOed it with one shot. Ending total for the green Marder was 11 men, 1 25mm AA, and both enemy vehicles.

My infantry got 29 men and lost 21 themselves. One platoon went right through some woods along the right edge, the other left-center and right through the village. The village was not too heavily defended as it turned out - most of the Russian infantry was on the objective proper, with a squad and HQ ahead of it in an outpost like position on my right. So the right side platoon made contact first, held up while the sIG helped total that outpost, and then assaulted it. After the outpost they had very limited ammo but few men hit. They took 25mm AA fire during the assault etc.

Meanwhile the left platoon cleared the village, the sIG putting in a few shots ahead of them and dealing with one 25mm AA and the ampulet, which were off on my left flank. They also hit some AP mines and lost several men to them. The T-38 chewed some of them up from behind buildings, too. Smoke helped with that. Once they cleared most of the buildings the green Marder charged into the village to get LOS to the T-38 and finished it off.

Then the sIG worked over the objective - with some scary shorts occasionally hitting the crest where my right platoon sometimes was (!) and the left platoon left the village and flanked the objective. The right platoon worked up jumping shellhole to shellhole despite limited ammo. They drew fire and one squad was broken with eventually 6 men hit. But the rest of the infantry, the last 7 HE shells in the green Marder and its MG, and the sIG, soon suppressed the firing infantry in the objective area, with about half of them bugging out at that point.

Both platoons then rushed. One veteran recon C squad and the regular platoon HQ put up something of a fight, but could not stand against 5 squads. At one point the vet Russian squad had one German squad at 4m, and 5 other units within grenade range, and was still firing back. But it broke the following minute and was wiped out as it ran.

Elapsed time was 21 minutes. I lost a total of 25 out of 83 men, plus one of the 2 Marders. Not light losses, but less than half theirs. The Russians lost the BT and T-38, 85mm and 2 25mm ampulet, 58 casualties and 17 prisoners. 7 ran off the map OK.

I didn't take a SPW 251/2 or foot 81s this time, and it made for some anxious moments with the ridge effects. If the sIG hadn't been able to hit the 85mm I would have had problems. But it did and everything worked out.

This is typical - sometimes your tanks work well and sometimes not, sometimes your air or arty support hits big and sometimes it whiffs, sometimes your supporting guns get hot and rack up big kills, and sometimes they can't see stuff or get taken out by mortars after a few minutes. If only one of the bad cases happens and you have 3-4 major forms of support, you still do fine. e.g. in this case, air was poor but sIG was strong, while the armor was middling performance. It was enough.

[JasonC]

Someone might wonder whether any of this depends on overusing sIGs (always nice but underpriced and overmodeled) or on use of armor against an AI too bad at stopping it. So I tried another at 400 point level with the Russian defenders having combined arms, and the German attackers Infantry force type with infantry division parent.

Again set in May 1942. Same terrain settings as the previous. Germans took -

regular infantry company, 41B type (2x50mm).

2 HMG-42, 1 81mm mortar on map

2 75mm leIG

1 28/20 sPzB

2 7.92mm ATR (vet)

I got a good company HQ (+2 command, +1 morale), one good platoon leader, one crappy one (no bonuses at all), and one with just +1 combat.

I gave the company HQ 5 squads - all but 1 green from the worst HQ, and 2 from the +1 combat guy. One ATR with this group as well, initially. They are the company main body and are behind the center.

Ahead of them is the overwatch group, with the +1 combat commander, 2 squads, 2 HMGs, the 81mm, and one of each of the guns (28 and 75). They were to man a tree line in the middle and support everyone by fire.

On the right, the point platoon with full 4 squads and best HQ, and the other ATR.

On the left, a "patrol" with worst HQ, 1 green squad, and the 2 50mm. The 2nd 75 was next to them initally as well, but not planning to advance.

The Russians as it happens had a BT-7, T-38, 2 76mm mountain guns, a 37mm AA, and a 25mm AA. Plus a 4 squad pioneer platoon and several minefields (like 6). The guns proved tough, the rest did not.

My first ID of the BT said it was a T-34, a bit scary (can't really afford them at this point level). But its true nature was soon apparent. It fired at the first movers but the left leIG soon KOed it. Not long after the 28mm squeeze bore got the T-38 as well. By then I was taking flak fire from the 37mm. I managed to put the 50s on it and they KOed it with a little ammo left. Right side platoon advanced rapidly at this point.

It then ran into the fire of all the rest of the guns. The 81mm got one of the Mountain guns and pinned the 25mm, but not before they did a bit of damage. I moved the main body up behind the point platoon, shifting behind them at "run". They pushed into the village against light infantry opposition, using house shadows to skulk from the guns. Somebody was always catching something but most got shelter etc.

The left side green patrol had guns in front of it but no infantry, and the guns were mostly firing toward my right on a diagonal. Woods masked some of their front. I tossed in smoke from the 75s and 81 to help that, and the patrol scurried forward. Eventually it captured the crews of both the 25mm and the 2nd 76mm, as both were pinned by fire from all over.

One of the leIGs worked up the main street of the village to the only flag, blowing down huts. By then I had most of the company within 150m firing at anything that showed itself. The Russian infantry folded easily as a result.

I lost only 16 out of 182 men and no major equipment (though I almost lost one of the leIGs trying to relocate it - which is how I "found" the 25mm AA). The Russians lost both vehicles and all four guns, plus 37 men hit and 7 taken prisoner. 21 ran off the map, a number of them gun crews.

On the scoring, the best leIG got 16 men and a gun, the 81mm got 5 and a gun. And the green patrol squad got awarded 1 man hit plus 7 captured, and 2 guns. Overall elapsed time was 17 minutes.

[FaxisAxis]

Ok, sorry I haven't had time to post anything and let you know how coming along in the quick battles, but anyway its been going pretty good for me at 600 points using your advice. I won my first but not by a huge score and I will say there wasn't a whole lot of cover. I like to use random for cover when setting up.

As far as time goes for me as in turns I had one battle where I wasted several turns taking out this one tank that was lodged in a hole behind some trees. (I didn't want to move my infantry or recon any further till I delt with this tank.) Of course I used mortar and from my starting line shot carefully with shoot and scoot and smoke with one of my tanks. Still it took too many turns before it was finally destroyed and I ended up rushing my troops to advance thiers to gain points; but ended up losing anyway.

I am wondering how you deal with bombardments and off map air strikes. especially with there isn't a whole lot of cover and the enemy line up on a hill

Seems I have lost at least two or three small arm infantry and sometimes all three of my mortars

with many routs and panics. the last time it happened at my start line and My units where behind some trees but the russians where way up on a hill and behind a small valley. Another time I had my troops running for the next cover running and hiding; it was a long way to the next cover and I still go the nasty air strike. My split scouts had just made it to cover-what are you going to do? Guess you just have to take the loses. What do you think?

[JasonC]

Two different issues.

On air strikes, you just want to take a single quad 20mm or 37mm Flak, towed, and put it in some spot of cover at set up. While air will still make the first pass to drop their bombs, as they draw fire doing it from an effective Flak they will avoid coming back.

Prep fire artillery is a different story. If the AI took an FO and that FO has LOS to enemy at set up, it will fire a prep fire mission on the first turn. Which will land immediately, the whole module, narrow sheaf. Takes 3-4 minutes to come down.

So, two ways to deal. One, don't be visible at set up. That means infantry is in some form of cover and is hiding. Vehicles are in dead ground - behind a ridge, immediately behind a house, or behind at least 2 full tiles of woods or pines (thickness, not width). If you can't get cover to every direction, get cover to places with wide LOS and near flags, where FOs are likely to be.

If the map has very little cover, though, sometimes it is not possible on a small map to ensure everyone is out of sight at the start. Fine, you go to the back up approach. You expect the barrage, but want it to accomplish little. The main thing to understand is that the AI will aim at tanks and is most likely to see tanks. (At long range, stationary hiding infantry can remain unseen even e.g. in mere steppe).

So...

Tanks start buttoned and infantry does not start near them, in this case. Infantry needs to be at least 50m away side to side, and off axis. The barrage when it comes will be long but thin. 100m to either side of the aim point, no damage is likely. Just think "big honking tanks in the open are fire magnets" and do the natural thing.

Second, when a barrage starts landing, everybody under it has to get out of dodge. Tanks fast move. Do not spend your time rotating. Instead move forward at speed for a little, and turn only once already underway, and a modest angle or not at all. Move to a dead ground location if possible. But move. As for infantry, it should use the "advance" command, and steer right or left front to get out of the long oval of the barrage. If they have to split from their HQ, split them. It is a lot easier to reform if not shredded.

Early barrages give you maximum time to rally from the effects, and are something of a waste compared to well used human commanded arty. But it is often the best use the AI manages to make of it, because it is a zero delay shoot at a visible target, something it generally can't pull off at other times.

Get clear and you have nothing to worry about - a prep fire cannot be adjusted or "walked" onto a new aim point. Rally the men for a couple of minutes, rest them if tired etc. A few minutes are off the clock - and you know the overall odds just moved from 3:2 to 2:1, because the AI just blew ~100 of its 400 points.

As for non prep fire arty, you pull back and rally, basically. Never try to ride out a barrage with men above ground. In heavy buildings or trenches, you can afford to ride out the lightest 81mm mortar stuff. 76mm arty isn't too bad if you are in rough or rubble. Anything bigger and you need to get up and run clear. The big stuff kills even in cover. Thankfully, it also generally has longer intervals between one flight of shells and the next, so you can get a fair distance taking only 2-3 flights of incoming.

[FaxisAxis]

Good advice, though there was one incident where air strikes hit my company which was in column and on route to where my point made cover and that was all that was needed

to take out 2 MGS and 2 mortars and panic a few rifle squads. It was a surprise and they were beyond the starting point; say at about the 8th turn where the terrain had a slight concavity and there were some trees head.

On one map it took me quite some time before deciding to place my tow 150mm and 105 guns... where they would get hit on the first turn and knocked out on the second or third ha. You see no matter where I put them at setup they were useless, they had no line of sight to even the enemies foreward starting line. They, the russians were higher up and behind little hills. So in order for me to get a decent line of sight I needed to put them somewhere in the middle of my starting point out in the open and what I did was to have them fire smoke on the first turn. Regardless it didn't work to well and so next time I'll save them and just put them where there is better cover or way in back as you suggested for my tanks. Though in this particular incident they would be useless there so I'd have to move them up to get decent LOS, because of the middle having slightly higher ground which would also block there LOS. Though maybe I could just leave an HQ behind to spot for them?

[JasonC]

HQs only spot for mortars.

Guns should be willing to move up to get LOS. The lighter ones can shift 100-150m on their own. Heavier ones can only move a bit to reach cover that merges with stuff in the set up zone and the like. In the one I mentioned last, my leIGs and sPzB moved about 100m to get to a treeline with LOS.

But you won't always get LOS with your overwatch guns, it is true. I just did another where that happened. This one was 400 points, open rural South region thus open steppe, with small hills setting. There were only 3 tiles of scattered trees and they were all enemy owned. One rocky in my set up area, and one brush in the middle ridge. Soft ground and marsh here and there, mostly continuous steppe.

There was a large ridge swell in the middle of the map, with the enemy behind it with one large and one small flag, both well behind the crest line. As it happened, the enemy had nobody in LOS to my set up area. This is the reverse slope problem, also known as "cresting drills". Cresting is one of the harder basic tactical tasks. I'll describe the force I took, the enemy encountered, and how I handled it. And of course the outcome.

This being July 1942, it was meant to be part of the German offensive in the south that led to Stalingrad. I had mech parent combined arms, the machine had infantry parent combined arms. I took -

Veteran Panzer III J late model (50L60 with 70mm front)

2 veteran panzer rifle platoons (no 50mm type)

2 veteran HMG-34

veteran quad 20mm Flak

regular 105mm howitzer on map

crack SPW 251/2

I meant for my artillery to come in the form of direct fire from the start line plus the deep ammo load 81mm halftrack. But of course that was before seeing the ground. The 20mm quad did not get a shot off all game, and the 105mm howitzer only fired its smoke at the crestline, never having an enemy in sight.

The enemy had 1 76mm AA (!), 2 76mm mountain guns, a regular rifle 41 platoon, a BT-7 light tank and a BA-20 MG armored car, plus one DP LMG. It also had a few obstacles and one trench, which housed the 76mm AA. I thus faced a reverse slope defense of dug in hidden guns, all ready to blow apart whoever crossed the crestline, and safe from my own gun line.

I still won easily, with only 8 men hit, while inflicting 53 causalties. 17 more ran off alive. It took 17 minutes.

The first 3-4 minutes I advanced gingerly because I wasn't sure there was nobody on my side of the crest, or on the top with LOS etc. But they were all on the reverse slope, so I sped up to "travelling", with all infantry units moving on move to contact orders. The MGs waited a bit then moved up too. The Panzer hunted into the middle of the map, while the platoons took right and left routes to the near side of the center ridge. That was just the approach and went fine.

Next came cresting proper. The infantry platoons each sent squads forward packet movement style, one then another moving rest stationary, on short "advance" orders of about 50m at a time. Meanwhile the panzer hunted forward at about a 20 degree angle right of straight over the ridge, the turret turned left about 30 off the hull.

I rapidly picked up shooters of course. There was a DP LMG ahead of one mountain gun in some trees very close to the crest, maybe 100m past it. Initial LOS to them was around 150m. Soon after the 76mm AA also got LOS to some infantry to the left of the panzer, and some of the Russian squads also commenced firing, from foxhole positions about 250m away.

This early fire pinned 2 squads and hit like 4 guys. The mountain gun bounced one round off the panzer. Then all the packet moving guys fired back, as did the panzer. It pinned the nearest gun in about a minute. I ran the SPW up and advanced the right side platoon HQ onto the crest, just enough to see things. The howitzer fired smoke at the left side on the ridge to break the LOS line between the 76mm AA and the infantry it was shooting at. The panzer meanwhile went to area fire at the trench where the 76mm was, right beside it.

The next 3 minutes were reasonably hairy. But the SPW KO'ed or pinned a gun a minute. The panzer lived, and drilled the BT-7 when it crossed in front of it shooting at infantry. Spent another minute on it making sure before seeing the bailout. My infantry that were being hit "advanced to the rear" to break contact, while their friends all advanced onto the ridge on either side of them. The HMGs still hadn't moved onto the ridge - too risky.

After those few hairy minutes, the enemy guns were silent. My infantry ammo was about half what it had been, and the SPW had only a couple minutes of fire left. But losses had been minimal, and nobody went beyong "pinned". Notice, I did not push for cover, everybody either fired, or broke contact if already pinned.

The SPW went right on hitting things after that, ones farther away that the infantry wasn't so good at. The panzer hunted farther and fired MGs at things fleeing. I advanced both platoons 50-100m and pushed the HMGs onto the ridge.

The left side platoon was then hit by the BA-20 from their left flank, pinning a couple units and sending one into "cover panic". I sent the panzer after it, aggressively, risking a remaining gun out there. There wasn't one and the panzer KOed the BA-20 in 2 minutes. Meanwhile the HMGs with their bottomless ammo set up on the ridge and began hosing things. The SPW still had 9 HE left, but was still behind the crest.

I moved the infantry up to the first cover, chasing the last Russians out on the right. I was at this point past the crest and about 100-150m from the trench on the right and the objectives. The right side platoon was quite low on ammo, but I figured the enemy were about broken anyway so it didn't matter and pushed hard regardless.

Last moves were the panzer pushing down to 50m and using its MGs the while, cutting down the enemy platoon HQ. The SPW pulled up onto the ridge alongside the HMGs, as it no longer had a spotter (its HQ had advanced) and wanted LOS again. It put its last few rounds on some heads down men in foxholes at the longest range, since nobody was firing back at this point. Right side platoon pushes into the trench, left side follows the tank toward the enemy HQ's former foxhole.

Then they autosurrendered.

The SPW got 6 men and all 3 guns. The panzer got 15 men and both vehicles. The overwatch guns got nothing, only the 105s smoke helping marginally during the cresting bit. The HMGs got 8 between them and the infantry got 24 while losing only 8.

A human could have conducted the defense better. The AI will open with its guns on any target they can hurt, and so unmasked even the 76mm when it saw infantry on the crest. That spared the panzer a nastier initial contact. A human would also have taken more trenches and thus had all the reverse slope people better protected. Might also have put 1-2 maxims in spots with LOS over might start line - though that would have worked OK, as my flak and howitzer would have just eaten them. Might have taken a few more minutes on the approach is all.

The SPW was also "hot" on gun killing. But then that is why I took is as crack, and took something with a deep ammo load. Having all your mortars run dry with only half the enemy guns taken out is one way that sort of attack can fail - at least if one of the remaining ones can kill your available armor from the front (or you don't have any).

When you buy the force, you never know exactly which pieces will be most important. Even during play, some will happen to do better than others. But it only takes a few of them bearing your weight - some are allowed to give less from time to time. That is what the variety and redundancy is for, to succeed even if one leg fails.

[The_Enigma]

Buy some SP arty ... all your problems are gone

[JasonC]

Not really. Doesn't give the bang for the buck and not nearly as stealthy etc. Compare a sIG and a Grille. One gets 50 shells the other 10 - and the one with 50 costs marginally less.

No, a better solution is to make a habit of buying 1-2 prime movers. But in fights this small it is so frequently unnecessary, and points are tight enough, that an extra shooter often looks better at purchasing time.

The best German prime mover is the SPW-251/1. Second best, less cost and can move the largest items, is the Skdfz. Kubels occasionally make sense if you have many leIG, single 20mm flak, or 28/20 sPzBs. But most often a single 251/1 in a smallish fight, or a single armor PzGdr platoon in a larger one, can displace your guns for you.

Incidentally, the best German HE chucker vehicle is the StuH. Much more survivable than the cheaper ones, decent ammo load with plenty of punch, etc. It does take armor points, though. Stummels are so-so. Kinda thin and twice the cost of a towed leIG. But at least only need vehicle points, which are typically abundant.

[ October 21, 2006, 10:34 PM: Message edited by: JasonC ]

[The_Enigma]

ive recently played a few games with a Grille. To be honest last game it didnt really work out well.

But a game i have on going, it had close to 20 rounds i think. I had it blast every British held position. It was blowing houses apart with its HE rounds, routing infantry from the tree lines etc

In essance it has cleared my entire right flank and gave my boys some room to breath.

In conjuction with this, there was 75mm AT guns, one of those 88mm rocket launcher thingies (cant think of the name now and no its not a panzerfaust or panzershreck), halftracks, heavy machine guns, a panzer IV and a few Stugs.

[JasonC]

Sure, 150mm HE and upward is seriously over modeled. Direct fire it can be devastating. The drawbacks are 2 rounds a minute and some of them lost to range related misses, especially when facing slope effects. Houses are the best target, a broad side of a barn being the easiest thing to hit with even a few rounds.

As for the ammo load, if you take one of the early ones in 1941-2 you get very few rounds, some are smoke, etc. Those were on smaller chassis, are open at the back, etc. Sure the later ones are better.

A sIG is just as devastating in fire effect, won't be KOed by a 45mm ATG, and fires for over 20 minutes straight if not countered effectively. Things just have to skulk out of LOS if mortars can't be brought up - and the AI doesn't know how to do either. And it doesn't use a single point of the armor budget. Frankly they are so good it is gamey overuse to take them every time.

A StuH on the other hand, won't be KOed from the front even by a 76mm, fires twice as fast which almost makes up for the smaller shell (to be fair, doesn't fully do so), is a full AFV vs. arty, has an MG, etc. Costs only ~100 points, but they are armor points.

The "rocket thingie" you meant is a Puppchen, which is overmodeled in CM. A panzerschreck that doesn't move is a more accurate rendition - which is why the Germans did not consider them a success. Gamey but effective in other words.

[The_Enigma]

The "rocket thingie" you meant is a Puppchen, which is overmodeled in CM. A panzerschreck that doesn't move is a more accurate rendition - which is why the Germans did not consider them a success. Gamey but effective in other words.

ehehe thats the one. It was the first time i had used one, i think i would have been surrised that its like an oversided panzershreck had i not read i believe it was your topic on them.

It did alright, it took out a HT and did manage to nail a Sherman, after 3 rounds. 1 missed, the other hit the rear turret and the 3rd took it out.

I can see why it was considered not a sucess, think i will stick to my PAk 38 or 40!

[jBrereton]

ehehe thats the one. It was the first time i had used one, i think i would have been surrised that its like an oversided panzershreck had i not read i believe it was your topic on them.

It did alright, it took out a HT and did manage to nail a Sherman, after 3 rounds. 1 missed, the other hit the rear turret and the 3rd took it out.

I can see why it was considered not a sucess, think i will stick to my PAk 38 or 40! [/QB]

I dunno, if rarity is on your side (I'm taking it that you're using variable rarity), then they're a good buy due to their effectiveness at any range due to their HC head.

Otherwise I'll agree that a standard AT weapon is much more effective.

[PanzerMiller]

I'm a bit late entering in to this, but let me say that despite the rather harsh opening rounds (glad to see you calm down, Jason!) I've learned a great deal from reading this discussion...thanks for the excellent information and perspective.

I've been preparing to play the Combat Scenario Design Team's scenario "Mozhaisk" for CMBB, simulating Reich's assault on the village outside Moscow in October 1941 using a batallion from the Deutschland Regiment. It's supported by an Assault Gun Company (7 StuG IIIE's) and a 105mm Howitzer Battery, with a reserve infantry company and Tank Destroyer Platoon in support. Elements from 10th Panzer will arrive later on during the assault. It's cold and muddy, with reasonable avenues of attack -- but I've got T-34's to contend with and no doubt a stingy Russian defense. Jason (and others) -- after many attempts at Axis assaults in CMBB (mostly successful), I am eager to put some more of your ideas into practice. I'm curious to see how the mud will affect my approach (I'm about 750m from the crossroads of interest and I have about 35 minutes). I'm also worried about the life expectancy of those StuGs...Perhaps an AAR on this one?

As directed, I will be sufficiently humble and whine-less in my quest for enlightenment...

Thanks again! Wish me luck...time to practice disciplined assault tactics...

[JasonC]

I've no idea why you posted that to this thread, since it has nothing to do with the subject being discussed.

As for "glad calmed down", pound sand.

[PanzerMiller]

Hmmm...I understood this thread to be at least in part focused on discussing optimal methods of attack and assault, from which I gained alot of insight. I commended you and others for providing this insight, and merely wanted to let you know that I was going to use it in an upcoming scenario. Nothing more, nothing less.

Posts to a forum like this do not have to be loaded with statistics and historical data to be appropriate, or even perhaps of idle amusement to others...

[JasonC]

No, it is about small QBs against a Russian AI with early war Germans.

If your post is about something completely different, start a new thread. If there are no tips or tricks or advice in your post, nor requests for same, use a different forum.

[Corvidae]

What??? you mean this isnt the thread for discussing gorgeous waitresses and their tiny skirts that flip up at the back ?????

Oh no, the squirels lied to me.

[Paul AU]

I’d like to complain about Jason too.

I’ve only attempted two conversations here (in these forums) , the first of which, Jason intervened to support my position. (After I’d given up). And thanks for that. (It was about immobilisations). So, he’s not entirely stupid.

The second of which was about risk/reward ratio, at the end of which, Jason concluded I was “insane”. This rather saps one’s enthusiasm for further conversation.

So, Jason is stupid. (Or insane, or full of horsefeathers, or maybe, just pounding sand. Or maybe he doesn’t agree with me. Or, I’m insane)

Now, as to the subject: I am wondering about all this talk about “patience”. Surely no game has enough turns to provide the “patience” required by much of the tips given here.

Or do you guys extend “normal” game duration?

[Cuirassier]

This whole, 'Jason provides sound tactical advice but is rude when he provides it' thing is getting a little old. If you guys feel the urge to bitch about him, then start a topic in the General Discussion forum. Or email him for an apology. This thread, on the other hand, has nothing to do with it. So please stop posting pointless posts.