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help with quick battles; attacking russians


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FaxisAxis, I suggest you download one of the databases that are available. Included in these are all the units that you encounter in the game, with all the info you need to select the right unit for the right job, like:

ammo type/quantity,

firepower

armour thickness,

transport capacity, etc.

As you yourself recognize, it's essential to know what your units' strengths and weaknesses are.

Evzone

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Originally posted by JasonC:

Until then, pound sand.

Origionally posted by Fußball

That gave me a good chuckle.

Originally posted by FaxisAxis:

And why is this funny, Zalgiris? Who the **** are you laughing at? What if it were you he made that remark to when you where asking a question... Would it be funny then?

Until then, pound sand. I'm sorry FaxisAxis but it's nothing personal, I just thought that it was a bloody good put down, like Fußball does. I find it very Blackadderish or somethink, I must say. Also I didn't expect such a good liner in this forum let alone thread from JasonC. I mean, cripes who knew our Master had such a witty sense of humour?

I really must remember that one for Summer is coming on Downunder and to use it at the beach. (Or rather against someone else who can be buggered going to the beach!) However, I'll have to tweak it a little to make it mine, if I'm not entirely origional.

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This is one of the most informative threads (whining apart) I've read about using infantry to achieve what I've hitherto found impossible. Thanks to the contributors.

There are bits that I understand, bits that I don’t understand but expect to with practice and at least one bit I just don’t get at all, and I’d be really grateful for clarification or pointers to other relevant threads:

Originally posted by JasonC:

Well, enemy infantry can't hurt an HMG team in good cover at 250-300m. They probably can't even locate it.

Am I right to assume they can’t hurt it because of their lack of firepower at that range, and because of the ‘dug-in’ cover multiplier? But what if there are several squads? And some mortar support? Isn’t it “bye bye HMG” then?

What puzzles me most, however is the “can’t even locate it” comment: once it opens fire it’s going to be spotted isn’t it? And then – as above – “bye bye HMG”?

I’m just getting to grips with the fabulous game, and I keep having to put it down because I get frustrated by my lack of understanding – but I keep returning to it. As a smart guy, I always thought I’d have made a great officer: I rather think the opposite after a few games!

Any helpful pointers / comments much appreciated!

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Can't even locate it - no, when it opens fire it will not automatically be spotted. Typically you will get nothing but a sound contact, somewhere in the general vicinity. In poor conditions of light or range or falling arty etc, you may not even get that. To get a "full ID" - exact location rather than sound - you often need to get a unit to about 200m range from the firing MG.

It can be a little better sometimes if you have many units with binocs or optics who are pointed directly at it, and it can be better if the MG has only foxhole or shell hole cover in otherwise open ground etc. You will occasionally pick them up out to 400m in those cases, if it is full day etc.

The ability of a weapon to fire continually while remaining unspotted is informally called its "stealth". HMGs have good stealth, also ATRs (including the German 28mm swPzB), the lightest mortars, sharpshooters, and light Flak. Naturally medium mortars from full defilade and FOs are also stealthy shooters. Together such weapons can create a long range or "approach" fire envelope, extending from 250m to 500m or so from a given formation, in which they can deliver pinning fire sufficient to slow infantry in the open, without being located themselves.

On unable to hurt an MG in range with good cover even if able to spot it, the reason is ammo limitations. Squad infantry has excellent firepower at short range, but at medium range it drops off dramatically. The SMGs contribute nothing at 150m or more. The rifles are down to 3 points each at 250m (and unfairly, the Russians ones to zero after it). The LMG(s) have to carry most of the shooting. *But* the whole squad burns ammo as fast as if all weapons were contributing at closer range.

As a result, a squad gets firepower in the 25-40 fp range at such distances. Any decent cover is 25% exposed or better, and defender cover is frequently more like 10-15% exposed, twice as good again (trenches, stone buildings, woods or pines foxholes). That means the effective fp per shot is more like 3-10 and a full squad-minute more like 20-60.

If 5 squads are firing at once for a full minute, they will pin, yes. But not kill, and if they let up the MG will rally inside of 2 minutes. If they occasionally hit someone it will have no effect on the outgoing firepower of the MG (unlike squads, MGs retain full fp until the last crewman goes. Ability to move or keep the ammo when moving is what is lost, not fp).

And 5 squads firing for a full minute burn 30 ammo points. You can't keep it up. Pinning fire only works if somebody else then closes to better range to KO the thing. Otherwise, you can have a full platoon fire until dry from 300m, using up 6-8 minutes doing it, but by the 10th minute the MG will be fine again.

Ergo, squad infantry cannot afford to duel an MG in cover at 300m or more. They need to get closer to make their ammo count, to ensure they actually kill the thing before they "ammo kill" themselves. It is no bargain to trade a full infantry platoon's entire lifetime firepower, for one HMG, anyway. Let alone to trade if for just keeping that MG quite for 10 minutes, without actually killing it.

The effective weapons against a fully IDed MG in cover at range, are first the mortars and second direct HE from tanks or towed guns. Once either has worked it over, an HMG of your own or a vehicle MG - something with high ammo and range - can be put on it to slow rally. Squad infantry on the other hand needs to advance. To suppress enemy squad infantry, you can trade fire with them at 200m or so, but attackers need to expend half their ammo at 100m or less to make up for the cover differential defenders enjoy.

Firing at too extreme a range is flinching in the game of chicken infantry plays with enemy infantry. The side that just takes the pain and rallies through fire, keeping its mags full, will have much more hurt to dish out at 150m or so. Usually this dovetails nicely with the need to get full spots - you push and push without revenge firing until you are close and have IDs. Then you have full mags to half empty ones, plus attacker odds, etc.

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Originally posted by JasonC:

Naturally medium mortars from full defilade and FOs are also stealthy shooters.

This bit I think I understand: if you can't be seen you're going to be hard to see!

Originally posted by JasonC:

HMGs have good stealth, also ATRs (including the German 28mm swPzB), the lightest mortars, sharpshooters, and light Flak.

But this puzzles me ... why is it so? How can one tell? How did you come to this knowledge? Is it written or deducible from writing, or is it the product of experience through experimentation?

It's this invaluable level of detailed knowledge that seems critical to elevate play from 'slugfest' to 'combat' .......

Thanks for some more fantastic insights ......

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Try it, it is obvious. Play hotseat if you want to see it as quickly as possible, so you see both sides of the field and know exactly how much or how little information the other side is getting, about a situation you know perfectly.

As for the reason for it, single small caliber weapons are naturally quite hard to spot. Unless you are looking directly at them the moment they fire, or at night to see visible muzzle flash, you won't have anything more to go on than the report - which arrives half a second or so behind the round itself (all such weapons are well into supersonic, the bullet speeds being mach 3-4 typically). By the time you turn in the general direction of the report, there is no flash left to see, etc.

It was also furthered by the way firing positions were constructed - typically angled to the front, the end of the barrel within cover, etc. I've read cases in WW I histories in which a group of officers in a dug out 400m behind the front, with LOS over the enemy position and trying to direct artillery, searched for the dug in machineguns that were shooting the heck out of their entire brigade, whose attack they broke, pinning the remainder in no man's land for literally four hours - without ever exactly locating a single firing MG.

Some of that is differential LOS - the men farthest forward could see positions they could not. Much of it is simply angled firing positions, set at 45 to 60 degrees off forward with sandbags or dirt parapets blocking the view straight forward, then crossing those fire lanes to prevent direct approach to any one gun (since the others protect it, etc). Which also has the effect of making local success against one MG not the key to advancing locally - instead if only partially solves one of the problems of a unit on one flank etc.

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Ok, I've played and beaten more than a few 300 point battles which I enjoyed and am now curious as to what you'd suggest for a 600 point setup and purchase.

The battle I had last night was interesting I had to take out antitank team, a tankette, a T-26, and somekind of light antitank cannon. These antitank guns seem to give me the most trouble and are usually set between trees at the end of the map waiting to surprise any tank that comes forward, I usually fire mortar at them with one of my two mortars and then shoot smoke out and attack it with my tank (panzer IVE) but there have been many times that I didn't spot them and there would go my tank-I'm usually creeping out from between some buildings for hills "shoot and shoot" to shoot another tank or supress infantry with my side guns. Can the front sheild (the reinforced front armor) really withstand fire from my tank-seems as if it can given the distance and when fired at directly in defense. Getting around them with infantry seems the ideal way but its usually too late for that.

One of the battles I had a valley between me and the the defender down below the two hills there was no cover so I had to concentrate on finding all the long range fire and then I could work my way down with infantry advancing/hiding and then up the hill where the enemy was as I fired across from my hill with heavy support and screening from my tank and mortar. And though I managed to achieve a decent victory, this particular battle with its terrain I found to be somewhat difficult and at one point after losing my tank decided to go back to a previous save and rethink my placement.

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On hidden ATGs, sure they are the bane of tanks, and when you have only 1 tank a lot can turn on how the engagement against one of them goes.

Some types are a bit more resistent. In fall 1941 the armor hasn't gotten thick yet, but there are still types with 50mm fronts that are invulnerable to Russian 45mm, at least. Those include the IIIJ (short), the StuGs, the Pz 38 E model, and the Somua. The IVE and IIIH have a front hull thick enough to bounce 45mm but can be killed by turret hits. None of them will stand up to a direct hit from long barreled 76mm (USV, ZIS-3, F-22 that is - not infantry or mountain guns).

Mortars are the right counter.

One other trick is that air support is quite likely to find guns even before they fire, when nothing else will. Cheap types with many strafing passes, like the Me-109F, are a good bet. The really light early war Russian tanks are also vulnerable, even those that one doesn't have a cannon, just a 15mm MG as largest weapon. 3 MGs and 5 passes. And MGs are what you need to take out guns from the air. Costs only 57 points regular or (my preference) 66 points as veteran.

Now to the issue of force mixes for 600 points. I am assume again at attack scenario, thus 900 points of actual Germans. A couple things happen as you move up to that level. The infantry becomes a full company, you get more than one tank, and real artillery support becomes possible for the first time.

You typically want to build the force around a single infantry company, regular or veteran quality. I recommend the Panzer Rifle type - listed as motorized Pz Gdr under "Pz". That gets 9 squads each 2 LMG variety, 3 50mm mortars, and 2 HMG-34s with solid fp and excellent ammo. And a lot more leaders than you are used to from the 300 point level.

The armor is going to be 2-3 vehicles. Typical choices are 2 Pz IVs or 2 Pz IIIJs or 3 Pz 38 E model, or a platoon of (3) StuG-B or E. From the vehicle screen take a SPW-251/2 - or 2 foot 81s if you prefer those. You can afford to take a 105mm FO from the arty screen, and if it is the line variety and regular quality, you can afford Me-109F support as well, daylight and weather permitting.

Last take a gun section for overwatch from the start line, depending on your other choices (exact armor, infantry quality level, line or radio FO, air or not, etc). Reasonable choices are 1 150mm sIG or 2 75mm leIG, or 1 75mm leIG and 1 28mm swPzB (to KO light tanks and vehicles without showing your armor), or 1 105mm howitzer, or a quad 20mm or 37mm FLAK. A 3rd HMG and 1 leIG is another possibility, a bit less firepower but more mobile.

So now you have a weapons mix with some way of dealing with each proper kind of target. Light tanks you can take out with your own tanks or with a gun. Infantry in woods you now hit with blasts of 105mm indirect before engaging them with infantry. Infantry in buildings you hit with direct HE from tanks and guns. Guns you hit with mortars, MGs with any of the above except the 105s off map, etc.

The company can now move up behind a point platoon, you can screen or patrol part of the front with a worst platoon leader and split squad, giving the other 2 to the company HQ, you can set up a "heavy weapons" platoon with the HMGs and 50mms and FO, etc. Naturally the opposition can be thicker too, and you will have more ground to cover.

I hope this helps.

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You still lead with a split infantry squad, but the balance of that squad's platoon is right behind it, trailing 50m or so and ready to support against anything that shoots at the point. Don't send mortars and MGs with them, though. Keep those sheltered behind the point platoon, and exploit their range.

One exception is sometimes you want mortars ready to support something only the point platoon HQ can see, e.g. when he crosses a crest line or whatever. It is fine to send mortars for that, staying behind the crest themselves but letting the point HQ spot for them.

Otherwise, the point platoon finds the enemy and shields the rest of the company from the initial contact. That lets the main body maneuver and engage on their own terms.

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Originally posted by JasonC:

As for the reason for it ...(lots of useful stuff) ... etc

It was also furthered ... (more useful stuff)

I hadn't remotely imagined that CM simulated this kind of thing (by whatever mechanism).

Thanks once again for the invaluable insights and time spent crafting lengthy replies. I'll see how well I can put it into practise. Also, thanks for the suggestion re hotseat experimentation.

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"I’m just getting to grips with the fabulous game, and I keep having to put it down because I get frustrated by my lack of understanding – but I keep returning to it. As a smart guy, I always thought I’d have made a great officer: I rather think the opposite after a few games!"

He comes along later graciously, grandiloquently humble (and vainly self flattering) with all "whinning" "aside" what an example of studious piety, splended!- (excuse me, I'm part of a slit squad that needs to vomit)

You do admit to getting frustrated- what else- and well you know now not to do that!

You must be the other half of the split squad who stayed behind and can now join the rest of the platoon with full support now that everthing is revealed. Welcome

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Originally posted by FaxisAxis:

"I’m just getting to grips with the fabulous game, and I keep having to put it down because I get frustrated by my lack of understanding – but I keep returning to it. As a smart guy, I always thought I’d have made a great officer: I rather think the opposite after a few games!"

He comes along later graciously, grandiloquently humble (and vainly self flattering) with all "whinning" "aside" what an example of studious piety, splended!- (excuse me, I'm part of a slit squad that needs to vomit)

You do admit to getting frustrated- what else- and well you know now not to do that!

You must be the other half of the split squad who stayed behind and can now join the rest of the platoon with full support now that everthing is revealed. Welcome

Eh?

This seems to be a quote from one of my posts followed by something pretty unintelligble.

Is this some kind of quaint 'forum dialect' that I need to try to understand, or can I just ignore these comments, as they really don't seem to add much to the meaningful contents of the thread?

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  • 3 weeks later...

JasonC, you are a font of knowledge but you certainly aren't user friendly. Faxisaxis, I went through the same thing as you with JasonC about a year ago. The guy is a d*ck but he knows his shiite when it comes to the game. JasonC; if we worked together and this knowledge applied to what we were doing, I'd use the heck out of you to accomplish the mission, and I might even buy you a glass of a tasty beverage.

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Jason C - This is a very good thread for beginners, thank you. I'd suggest it go in the Anthology o' Useful Posts, but I'm not so sure if the Battlefront moderators would want to draw attention to what I think you have to admit has been one of this forum's less shining moments.

That said, it has been very useful for me. I've tried several 300 and 600 pt battles using the force mixes you reccomended, and I feel like I understand this game much better than I was when I was flailing about in random scenarios.

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