help with quick battles; attacking russians

[The_Enigma]

a good idea as others have suggested will to be to learn from others ingame. Head over to the opponent section of the forums and see if you can get some PBEM games set up, or head over to the The proving grounds and check the opponent section.

Lots of people willing to play games and you will also gain practical exp in the game as well as what could be described as the theroy here

[FaxisAxis]

Yeah, jasonC, after reading your previous reply and concidering what you said it seems that maybe its not that these battles I was playing and losing were

"impossible," as I so called them, but rather I just didn't know nearly enough about what I was doing to beat them or even make that judgement.

And maybe if I wasn't conceited about it I'd have been able to see this instead of whinning in a way arrogant and blindly stupid: I know all about "what I'm doing and I'm clever enough so if I can't beat this its impossible!"

Correct me if I'm wrong about this.

[DavidFields]

A reasonable request:

"Can anyone give me some general advice for quick battles and attacking when playing as the axis."

A rude response:

"You are stupid, that's it your problem."

Justification: Insufficient.

Thus ends a lesson for anyone modest enough to realize they could learn something about dealing with people.

[JasonC]

F-A - that wasn't so hard was it?

It isn't that hard to attack with a small force either, but it helps to know the right items to take.

Try the following. Let the computer pick medium quality 300 point Russian defenders, early war stuff, and try taking on a succession of them with the same German force -

Panzer IVE, regular

SPW 251/2, regular

2 veteran Panzer rifle platoons

Save the first turn of each scenario, so you can run through it again, same map and same enemy force. You can try something different when something failed the first time through, and initially at least you can also exploit what you learn about the enemy force and positioning.

The Russians may be less powerful than a cherry picked human force. That's OK, you are trying to learn basic ways of taking apart a variety of Russian positions, not win a contest.

Vary the terrain as well. Start with types with good cover if you like, and progress to less of it. Learn to use the same vanilla German force, with balanced and flexible combat abilities, in a wide variety of circumstances of place and opponent.

First things you will notice - the bulk of the heavy firepower comes from the 2 high ammo HE vehicles. The Pz IV typically has enough HE for 7 minutes of fire, sometimes 6 or 8. The SPW has a similar or larger amount. Since a single minute of fire from either one can thoroughly pin and often panic at single target, you can run through a dozen enemy positions with those alone.

The Panzer does direct and the SPW indirect (never give an actual LOS to the latter. An HQ spots for it). The Panzer is better at buildings and bunkers and must deal with all armor. It is marginally better at trenches. The SPW is better on woods positions and is a must for dealing with guns, to spare the Panzer.

Both also have useful quantities of smoke rounds. Those can be used to mask a couple of infantry movements or they can be used to take a weapon out of a given fire fight by blinding it.

The infantry come with 2 50mm mortars. They have limited ammo, only enough for 2-3 minutes of fire. They will work best if they both hit the same target, and expend their entire ammo loads on it.

To give both HQs mortar spotting ability, send the 2 50s with one of them and have the SPW trail the other. The SPW is the heavier piece.

Both mortars can ride the Panzer to reach a position more rapidly, but it needs to be a covered route.

The infantry is high quality, high firepower, but not numerous and limited in ammo "wind". You have to be careful with the main body of it. It's first role is to scout and find targets for the HE weapons, and later to wade in to pinned units to finish them off.

The Panzer has nearly bottomless MG ammo - well, enough for 15 minutes of continuous fire. That is enough for all the time you will have located targets in a small fight, though not enough to hose everything you see from turn 1. It should fire its MGs only, saving the HE, to maintain pins on units already hit with HE, while infantry approaches to finish them off. If you have another target up and shooting, switch to it instead and use HE.

The panzer rifle squads get most of their firepower from their 2 LMGs. When split, these both stay in the heavier half squad. Which is more brittle about taking fire itself, but fires fine. The half squad with SMG and rifles left over is tailor made for scouting. Never use the LMG half as a scout, it is way too valuable for that. Keep at least one full squad in the main body for each platoon, along with the LMG halves.

I typically advance the platoons in column, meaning the second travels over the same route as the first, 100 yards and a minute or so behind it. When the first makes contact it typically halts in the nearest cover, and the second swings right or left to deploy or to get around the enemy seen.

The absolute point is an SMG-rifle half squad on "move to contact". If it looks like no one will fire at him over the chosen route, assume it is clear and proceed along it. Use "run" to cross open areas rapidly if they seem clear. (The mortars can "move" and catch up a minute or two later, or ride the Panzer). Inside cover use move to contact.

When you first take fire the primary mission becomes finding first cover and then the enemy. If you are close enough for full spots right away, great. If you don't initially see them, try moving more eyes to the edges of tree lines. Include the HQs - they have binocs so they spot better, and they also give you the option to throw mortar rounds at whatever you see.

If you have sound contacts clearly firing at you but too far to spot, you need to advance a unit to get a full ID. If the ground is open this can be the Panzer. Buttoned. You don't want a wide open LOS route, however. The ideal is to see the area near the sound contact without being seen from any other location, in order to reduce the chances of hidden guns.

The HQs must be in position to spot for the mortars before the Panzer advances. In case of a gun, the mortars are put on it right away and the Panzer fires smoke at it and reverses.

If there is cover you can instead develop the ful ID by using infantry on "advance". A half squad will pin when it draws fire. If that fire gets you the spot, OK, otherwise it may take a full squad in command pushing for the next piece of cover. There is no need to push right onto the enemy. The intent is not a charge or getting to grenade range, just seeing the enemy.

When you have a full ID, put the HE weapons on it to pin it. It should only take one weapon for one minute, or both 50mms paired up and used until dry. Advance one platoon at a time after you pin the visible shooters. The Panzer maintains pins with MG fire. A single LMG half squad can take another if necessary.

The infantry should be on short arcs, 150m maximum. I generally use 125m actually. The idea is to be just far enough that Russian SMGs aren't effective, and to otherwise get the most bang per ammo point out of the LMGs. Their ammo will not last if they try to fire from 250m out. They should fire by whole platoons to break or pin a single enemy in one minute flat. Once an enemy is pinned, you want to close to grenade range rapidly, one squad near each target. Do not keep firing a whole platoon at an already pinned unit - one LMG half squad is enough.

The attack works by running the enemy out of good order defenders, 1-3 at a time.

Platoon-minutes of LMG fire - 12. HE minutes from the vehicles - 12-16. 50mm add 1. Result, 25-30 serious firepower-minutes. A few of the infantry shots will be needed for other things or lost when squads are shot up, and up to half of them may be needed for close range finishing fire.

But the enemy won't have 20 targets to get through. He may have 10 and he will certainly have 5, so you can see firing for 3-4 minutes at a single target with a serious weapon will not make it the distance. The easy ones have to go heads down in a minute flat, the tougher portion in 2 minutes. Notice this will also radically reduce the incoming fire you receive. It is indeed the main form of "cover" - enemy shooters -1 or -2 per minute.

If you implement the idea, describe your first attempt including the enemy force you found, in detail, not general terms. Play that first one twice before asking what to do about any of the enemy encountered - so you've already had a round of thinking up a solution yourself, after you know the threat.

You may lose the Panzer the first time or two out, early, before it gets a chance to do its thing. S'ok, it happens. Try again and let the infantry get farther ahead of it the next time. The AI isn't very good about holding its fire until it has the right target for a given weapon.

In tech spec terms, understand the front turret and sides of the IVE are vunerable to Russian 45mm (which their tanks have) at close enough range. The front hull is penetrable by their long 76mm towed. Its own gun will KO any tank you can face in a fight this small, combined arms.

Don't treat it as an ubertank in dueling terms, but as an "eggshell with hammer".

If you find a thicker tank easier, you can switch to a StuG and add a foot MG34 team which takes over the pin-maintaining role. 50mm front StuGs will not be harmed by the 45mm on enemy vehicles of this era and battle size.

I hope this helps.

[JasonC]

Rank - carpers carp and teachers teach. You are free to instruct the man yourself, perhaps you'd like to do so.

Oh and for the record, the parts you just sorta left out

"Reasonable"

"My guys seem to have no balls

as though the russians are giants

they always shake, panic and break.

my units are surrounded

there are 3 of their units to my one

they never have enough cover to attack"

Response

"Also the game cheats, it is actually a secret communist conspiracy to slander the ubermenschen. That is a gentle way of pointing out that you are whining..."

But that is water under the bridge.

[ August 25, 2006, 08:17 AM: Message edited by: JasonC ]

[DavidFields]

"My guys seem to have no balls

as though the russians are giants

they always shake, panic and break.

my units are surrounded

there are 3 of their units to my one

they never have enough cover to attack"

Observations, JasonC. Nothing stupid. You can either admit to the obvious, that you were unjustifiably rude, or you can mask the issue with your expertise. Your choice, but, in the spirit of intillectual honesty, you might admit that your knowledge of T-34s is greater than your expertise in working with others.

[FaxisAxis]

JC, with 300 points I'm only allowed for armer a PanzerIIF with a 20m L55. That's the best I can do Its 65 points; I'm allowed 70.

[FaxisAxis]

Also, for experience only green or regular (in regards to the platoons you suggested), no veteran, for 300 points. Is there some setup configuration that will allow me to?

[JasonC]

Battle type Axis Attack. Not Meeting Engagement. Attackers get +50% to the point total chosen, so you have 450 points of budget to work with. Combined arms force type with 450, parent division type Panzer/mechanized, will give you an armor budget of 108 points iirc.

Armor point budgets are marginally lower in combined arms force type if you take a parent division type of Infantry.

On quality, don't pick medium pick unrestricted, that will allow the Germans to take green to crack and the Russians conscript to regular (in 1941 - later they can take vets too etc).

As for 300 point MEs rather than attacks, if you want a German force for that I've got several. But you should not find yourself attacking very much against the AI in that case. Just make sure you pick a covered route and run on turn 1, and you should beat it to the objectives. Then defend them.

The best early war tank for this little fights is the French Somua S-35. It is thick enough in armor terms to shrug off 45mm fire, even from the flanks. It has one MG with 20 minutes of ammo, and a useful 47mm gun that will KO the Russian lights easily, and has 8 blast and lots of ammo for harassing mortars and MGs etc. Not an HE deliverer, though. Only 50 points regular.

Another option is a green StuG III (just under the 72 point armor limit for a 300 point ME with mech parent division type).

If you want a realistic but reasonable effective German tank, you can also take the Pz 38 E model. It has a 50mm front, enough to stop 45mm fire, MG ammo and a solid 37mm gun. But it is more vulnerable than the Somua and lacks the HE punch of the StuG, so it isn't a gamey optimum in these conditions.

Your HE chuckers can be SPW 251/2, my favorite, or you can take 2 75mm leIGs (very very cheap) or 1 150mm sIG and a truck to move it.

The infantry in this case is a single platoon, veteran to crack, either the 4 squad version (plus 50mm) for manpower and ammo depth, or if you take the 2 LMG 3 squad Panzer rifle type, suppliment them with 1-2 extra HMG-34 teams.

E.g. an outing I just did took -

Somua, SPW 251/2 both regulars, crack 4 squad schutzen platoon. I ran to the house objective in scattered trees and got their well before the AI. He showed a BT on my left front along with a tankette - the Somua rapidly KOed the BT with 3 lower hull penetrations, after 3-4 of the Russian shots bounced off it. The tankette reversed to safety.

My infantry met Russian infantry in trees on my right, with initial range 50m or so. They won despite the Russian SMGs because they were crack and stationary for first shot. A few mortar rounds at the firing line also helped. Then my infantry advanced into the wreckage.

One squad, which I got as elite, remained by the objective and spit out 150m fire into open, cutting them up as they ran from the woods the rest of the infantry flushed them from. The 81mm then pounded their weapons and rally line in some pines. There was some fun with a Russian 50mm that pins some of my guys, until the Somua put its 47mm on it and KOed the thing. (It was out of LOS of my HQ or the 81mm would have handed it).

The tankette reappeared on my left, alone, and threatened the SPW, which reversed behind a house. The Somua went after it and in a comic chase managed to bag it the second time (after a pass at 4m range when it could not depress the gun enough to hit it! lol). My infantry went on short arcs to save ammo and the 81mm followed up by showering their treeline.

Their losses came to 56 out of 57 engaged, including PWs. I lost like 4 guys in the infantry fighting in the woods, no more than 2 per squad.

Other sample 300 point ME forces -

Somua, SPW 251/2, veteran Panzer rifle platoon, 2 regular HMG-34

or

Somua, SPW 251/2, veteran 4 squad platoon, veteran 20mm Flak

or

Green StuG III, 251/2, vet 4 squad platoon

or

Green StuG III, 251/2, vet panzer rifle platoon, vet HMG-34

or

Somua S-35, veteran 4 squad platoon, 2x75mm leIG, 37mm Flakwagen (tons of anti-infantry firepower)

or

Somua S-35, veteran 4 squad platoon, veteran 150mm sIG, regular truck

or the one I took

Somua S-35, 251/2, crack 4 squad platoon (all fast)

I hope this helps.

[Shmavis]

Oh, my goodness. You were doing so well, sticking to giving game advice. I was so proud. Then, you had to go and deviate from the one thing at which you excel here. Back to square one.

[FaxisAxis]

Ok, its all working with the battle type and parent division you've suggested; I'm able to buy a nicely balanced force and now I know what you mean by the %50 attack advantage-a nice 150 more points added to my 300.

You have given me a lot to consider here-this time with a winning chance- I will keep it in mind and even refer to it now and then.

I also want to experiment with the tank purchases options you've given me.

One squad, which I got as elite, remained by the objective and spit out 150m fire into open, cutting them up as they ran from the woods the rest of the infantry flushed them from.

Just when they thought they were "out of the woods" lol

[FaxisAxis]

Shmavis, read it anyways as you already have.Read it again. I'm sure it will be of some help to you. Though, everyone must know here in the forum what an expert you are at this game. Anyway I'm sure there's something you've missed or forgot along the way; maybe it'll get you out of some those bad playing habits.

He seemed to have had a lot of fun and be able to exploit some good tactics with this basic quick battle setup, but you, you're too advanced for it?

Maybe you should play against him in one of these battles, and I'm sure that would teach even you a good lesson.

[Shmavis]

Originally posted by FaxisAxis:

Shmavis, read it anyways as you already have.Read it again. I'm sure it will be of some help to you. Though, everyone must know here in the forum what an expert you are at this game. Anyway I'm sure there's something you've missed or forgot along the way; maybe it'll get you out of some those bad playing habits.

He seemed to have had a lot of fun and be able to exploit some good tactics with this basic quick battle setup, but you, you're too advanced for it?

Maybe you should play against him in one of these battles, and I'm sure that would teach even you a good lesson.

Too funny, man. Also, I guess you're too new to know that I wasn't addressing you. You had my sympathy. No longer is that the case.

[The_Enigma]

may i ask why you want to stick to such a small force?

[RaggedyMan]

Originally posted by the_enigma:

may i ask why you want to stick to such a small force?

First, let me say that I love your sig, 'nigma.

As far as playing with a smallish force, this whole thread has gotten me to thinking about doing so as a form of practice.

If you look at the point value of a medium to large sized engagement, it is (and my memory isn't good on these things) probably two to five times the 300 point value being bandied about.

But really, another way to look at it is just x platoons of infantry with y vehicles and z support elements.

JasonC's alternate breakdowns of the purchasing power for this exercise would allow someone to really practice the micro-scale view of combined arms. Basically, learning how to attack with one tank, one platoon, or maybe 2 AFVs and a platoon and a HMG, and so forth.

So really, taking a larger force and deconstructing it into smaller units (say, roughly the size of this scenario) might be a step toward learning how to balance the battles on your flanks, how to employ a reserve to exploit a breach that has tired your guys, or simply how to conduct strong reconnaisance in a large or huge game.

I also wanted to say that seeing JasonC and F-A come to an understanding was one of those internet moments of zen that I just don't see but once in the proverbial blue moon on message boards...and for whatever it might be worth, Faxis, if you want to go head to head on a PBEM or maybe a TCP/IP game, drop me an email (my only warning is that I prefer published scenarios to generated ones, since I have zero idea about OOB for WW2 - also, medium or smaller scenario please).

I can't promise that I'll challenge you but I would be willing to do an AAR with you once we're wrapped up.

ta,

[FaxisAxis]

RaggedyMan (great name by the way), right now I just want to focus on quick battles and some of the published senarios. I have still alot to learn before I can play a good game with anyone here and it may take a while for me to get good at this since I don't have a whole lot of time-the main reason I came for advice here is so I could get right down to business with out wading through too much about what I already know.

Though it would be instructive for me to play against some like you, even if it may be that I will lose inevitably.

shmavis, I was ambigious about what you ment and at first I did in fact think you ment what you're now telling me but regardless as JC said its water under the bridge and he is now taken the time to give me alot of helpful advice. So, I thought that what you were implying was that the advice he was giving was so elementary -"square one"- as to not be worth writing about or reading in this forum.

"Observations, JasonC. Nothing stupid."

Rankorian, You are absolutely right, though he thinks this is whinning. I will nonetheless overlook it for now and concider the advice he's given me, the exact advice I was really only asking to begin with.

[RaggedyMan]

Originally posted by FaxisAxis:

RaggedyMan (great name by the way), right now I just want to focus on quick battles and some of the published senarios. I have still alot to learn before I can play a good game with anyone here and it may take a while for me to get good at this since I don't have a whole lot of time-the main reason I came for advice here is so I could get right down to business with out wading through too much about what I already know.

Though it would be instructive for me to play against some like you, even if it may be that I will lose inevitably.

I understand where you're coming from on the time component, but I'll just say this:

JasonC's approach is a terrific one, if a little mechanistic in explanation. Knowing the relative values of the units, what can trump what and so on will not do you wrong. It is certainly nothing that will ever fail because it relies on the mechanics of the engine, and those (at least for CMBO,CMBB,and CMAK) won't be changing anytime soon.

However, to develop the "art" you would be better served playing against opponents who can explain to you why they acted and reacted during the scenario, something which the AI will never do.

My preference in learning the game was to develop it as an art since I didn't have the time or more importantly the discipline to experiment and get a feel for the mechanics of the game. And that's not some subtle shot at JasonC or what you're trying to do, I just think there are, with some obvious meshing, two styles of learning the game: mechanically (unit characteristics/strengths) or artistically (experiment - result - experiment).

My guess is that JasonC's dirty secret is that he mastered one (the mechanical) and incorporated it to his understanding of the art.

Regardless, my offer for a game is always good, just shoot me an email if you ever want to try one.

[FaxisAxis]

Ok, that's it, JasonC, I won with a 97% victory. The first enemy spotted I believe by my halfsquad was a B-T5 tank-I did'nt want to encounter that first, remembering what you had said about my side and front guns being vulnerable on the Panzer IVE.

Not knowing if I should withdraw and sneak around it somehow and save it for the right time or deal with staight away I chose the later I like to get the big jobs out of the way.

So I prceeded to fire smoke and throw mortar-I chose to have my mortar guys ride the tank- at it while my tank went on to find away to flank it. There was a bit of a chase and eventually I nailed it twice with to good solid hit to the side-the nice thing is it never even shot at my tank- though there were breif moments where it came very close. Unfortunately though at one point my SPW 251/2 half-track bogged. I was going between trees

and a house with it, but I was still able to use it, for it made it just far enough to have line of sight to shoot at infantry on the other side of the grove. Anyway I proceeded to advance my HQ and 2 mortar which I left slightly behind, below the hill and some infantry that I ended up needing to withdraw and hide further in the trees because of an MG in a building which was adjoining the victory point, and taking my tank around the woods used its MGs and advanced my infantry into the adjoining building to capture the victory point. lol, I captured it on the last turn. (30th)

So, I now I have a question about what you told me to do when scouting. It is in the very beginning with you send that SMG half squad out and then the the heavy support on the next turn following right behind them and then to either side. I need some order here on how I deploy all these squads on recon. The question is I have all these infantry squads and to HQs. First do they all follow pretty much the same path directly behind the half-squad and MG and do I send them out one squad at a time each taking a turn or all together on the same turn towards the general covered direction of the scout-squad and artillery-in my case the tank and mortar units.

Also if I have more than one HQ each devoted to a

platoon of infantry and artillery do I divide them on the map so that say one group goes on one side of the map and the other takes care of the other side of the map (provided that is cover on both sides?) or say the other side of the road that is covered and each has its own scouting splits squad leading the way?

I'm sure there's many ways of sending them all out but it seems important to me that I get them all out in a general orderly fashion. The way I did it in this quick battle is I took them, both platoons on one side of the map and I kept say to myself "now why am I doing this I should send the SPW platoon to the other side of the map. I guess I didn't because the terrain wasn't as good as far as cover goes and It was leading directly to where I'd expect to find the enemy.

[FaxisAxis]

Also, let me add, I am aware of the squad formations around the HQ. I've read about them in the strategy guide and in a post of yours, JasonC, when you refered to the formation as a "blob" and drew a diagram consisting of Xs and Os, is this the general approach to keep them in a formation like this all setting out around the HQ on the same turn and following- after a minute later- the split squad and the LMG?

[JasonC]

Before you think there is any chance of contact - e.g. still inside some woods connected to your set up area - you can move everyone at once. Once you get to a part of the advance you think might be visible to the enemy, you use the scouting-point, main body "drill" discussed next.

The half squad point moves out alone, the only thing moving that turn, using "move to contact" orders. (That tells them to halt if they see anything or are fired upon).

The following minute, everybody else moves out, in formation. When all are moving at the same time, that is called "traveling". It is used to get rapidly from A to B, and not to deal with enemy fire. The movement order can be move to contact, or move if inside cover.

They follow right behind the point half squad. Don't spread out 200m on either side, because the point half squad is scouting the route to see if it is clear of enemy fire. Just stay about 2 units wide and within command distance. If the point gets out of command distance, that is OK - but the HQ should be able to catch up to it in a minute.

The point aims at a body of cover that will hold a full platoon. Initially, you want one that the enemy won't be in (not far enough to be in his set up area I mean). Once he is inside that cover, everybody closes up, and gets to the front edges. You can reform the scout squad if you like.

When everybody is ready, able to see the next open area to be advanced across, the point steps out again. It can be the same half squad or a new one from any squad in the platoon. First turn moving, again it is alone, everyone else is just watching, ready to fire. If the point is unmolested, then move out again.

When a movement is likely to draw fire but you want it to continue anyway, a short "advance" order is better than a long "move" or "move to contact". Short here means it will be completed in the minute is started, or only goes over by the command delay amount. Think 50 to 80 yards.

Also when a movement is likely to draw fire, and especially if it already has, it is time to replace the "traveling" drill above, with the opposed movement drill. Which is "packet movement". That means one squad at a time is moving, another is on it command delay ready to move, etc. 2 squads may move out in a given minute, but at staggered times. They are short hops from cover to cover, followed by stationary for the rest of the minute and for the next command delay.

I generally send anything less than a company along a single route of advance. But I will sometimes having small screening detachments ("patrols") elsewhere - but in a larger fight than this. That means things like an HQ with just 2 squads, one of them split - or one split squad and an LMG. Off on a flank, just probing cautiously. The idea is to occupy ground that is completely undefended, and to get more eyes out looking for the enemy. But not to attack.

You won't find anything serious with less than a full platoon using the scouting drill above. And the first platoon in the column can frequently get itself pinned by fire at the moment of contact, or right afterward. The balance of the column will usually be free of fire, and men free of fire are effective - maneuvering firing fighting - men.

So in a fight this small, I'd stick to one column. The terrain might force things a bit, particularly if you just can't fit them all along the chosen route (because you stay ~25m apart etc). But the ideal is not every platoon fighting its own war, it is one platoon leading as the "shield", fixing whatever it hits, and the rest then doing something sensible to KO whatever the shield platoon hit.

[Zalgiris 1410]

Originally posted by JasonC:

When you stop actually whining and excusing yourself for it to boot, I might consider helping you with actual advice. Until then, pound sand.

That killed me, it really did. I just had to uncomtrolably crack up hysterically laughing in a public place readng that! (I am in the Hospitals library, where I work.)

It has been an interesting thread I must say. Yeah I think I get what Jason is suggesting. I'll have to do so tests, but I can see how to make it work in terms of spacing with minute/70-100m intervals between units.

Troops run something like 150m a minute, move 70-80m, advance 60-70m so calculating in the command delay which can be anything from 4-25 seconds (or worse) for one order and adding extra 10 sec pauses will work. I like the idea of giving the next unit a an order and delaying its move using 5-6 pauses so that it doesn't start to move until the next turn. You can always adjust it or cancel it during the orders phase if you like. Of cause, it really makes it worthwild to do that while giving your units a whole series of orders though.

These tactics based on depth (rally dependant) of Jasons' really seem to be the key to attacking with infantry, with or especially without HE chuckers. It is something that you don't pick up on from the AI, (or solo H2H) which is all that I've ever played against. It takes a bit to change ones thinking, I always tried to use width to accomplish advances with infantry dominant forces. (i.e. as many troops moving forward in the actual attack as possible while using HMGs, mortars, spotters, guns & armour stationary againsts targets that popped up.) It used to be a real slog esspecially in a close run thing or an utter failure. I've never relied upon rallying in the process before. I've always thought of rallied units as near useless backleggers, nice of them to rejoin & may be OK for following up and holding ground or for long range harassing fire but not moralely stable enough for any serious combat fighting again.

[FaxisAxis]

And why is this funny, Zalgiris? Who the **** are you laughing at? What if it were

you he made that remark to when you where asking a question and didn't know how to setup a quick battle so you'd have a chance of winning, and you were instead making it so that you where out numbered and without the right equipment to win the battle? Would it be funny then?

This is juvenile of you to gloat and laugh at something like this. I'm getting alittle fed up with this crap. Don't know if I'll stick around much longer. I thought this was one of the few mature forums.

All I wanted is a jump start to get used to playing this game and learning the important tactics and I certainly don't need your help Zalgiris. I don't need your commentary on the advice jason just gave or an interpreter. I can take it from here, there's plenty of literature on this subject including the the strategy guide I downloaded. Anyway, its practice I need; applying what I read, trial and error.

[Fußball]

-Faxis

This morning I was working on a quick battle map in a scenario style. A map that would play like a quickbattle but look more like a "real" Russian village/rural setting. Its quite immersive if I do say so myself. It is a company sized German attack set during June 1942. I have yet to playtest it but if you are interested send me an email at karl_doenitz101@yahoo.com if you are. I can give you more detail on the map and send it to you if you would like.

Originally posted by Joachim:

Just ignore Jason being rude. You don't have to like him to find some of his posts useful.

This is very good advice to take. Faxis, just cease any kind of arguement toward Jason. You will never get through Jason's thickhead whether you like it or not but his advice can be helpful.

Originally posted by JasonC:

Until then, pound sand.

That gave me a good chuckle.

Tschüß!

Erich

[JasonC]

Here is another minimalist QB I just tried against the AI. I was interested in the original poster's no cover comment, and wanted to show how itcan be readily handled without the aide of superior armor.

So I picked a 300 point German attack, Germans unrestricted Russians medium quality, both infantry force types and ID/RD parent division, computer picks Russians I pick Germans. With the terrain open steppe - rural, open, gentle slopes, medium damage. The era is July 1943, Kursk.

My set up zone had not a stitch of cover in it. There was a small pond and a few tiles of marsh, the rest all steppe. The Russian side of the map had some marsh as well, a useless bend of a road that went nowhere on the left edge, 2 small flags, and a crater field. They were on a slight rise with some reverse slope beyond it, with a modest hollow of sorts to my right front.

The AI force, which I did not know obviously, turned out to be 1 ZIS-3, 1 76mm regimental IG, 1 25mm AA, 1 12.7mm AA MG, and two platoons, one standard rifle (4 9 man squad type with 6 DP between them) and the other recon C (3 11 man mostly rifle). They also had a couple of useless bits of wire etc.

My force was designed for the idea of quality and firepower, not numbers. So I took 1 crack Jager platoon, 2 crack HMG34, 1 veteran quad 20mm Flak, Me-109F air support and last but decidedly not least a veteran 150mm sIG. The HQ wound up having +2 combat, no command bonus, +1 morale.

Set up was HMGs separated about 100m at the limit of my set up zone and basically centered, with 2 squads between them. HQ between the two squads and back a bit. Other two squads behind the MG-Squad line thus formed in checkerboard fashion. Outside those and behind the MGs, the sIG on the right rear and the meat-chopper on the left rear.

I moved out cautiously with the center forward squads on advance and hide, 30-50m. Drew no fire at first. Guns and MGs just overwatching, no area fire. Infantry switched to sneak for a few minutes to get a bit closer as a group, still no fire. Then I had them all get up and put on 70m advances or so, simultaneously. That did it and the Russian guns opened fire.

The ZIS-3 went for the sIG and panicked it with a man down on their first shot. But failed to KO it - veteran quality did its thing. The Russian IG fired at the infantry but missed long. By then I'd picked them up and the meat-chopper made short work of the Russian IG. The MGs helped too, pinning the ZIS-3 crew long enough for the sIG to recover to pinned. All in the first 2 minutes of shooting, understand.

The ZIS-3 was positioned on a crest in such a way as to make it quite difficult to hit with flat trajectory HE.

I had the infantry advance when the guns opened up on both sides. They drew infantry fire from a scraggly line of foxholes near the crest line. I put an MG on the ZIS but called off the sIG and had it fire at infantry, with less of a slope problem. My own infantry fired all together at the nearest enemy infantry, and the 20mm got a third.

At this point my fly-boy shows up and drops his bomb. Aimed at the ZIS-3 but short, still good vs some of the infantry. Draws fire from the 25mm AA at the back of the map, only sound. Half the Russian infantry is running away at this point. The Russian HMG hit 2 men in the left front squad but they didn't go below "shaken" - crack with +1 morale commander nearby. The HMG got HE and MG attention the following minute, naturally.

The Me-109 returns for strafing passes, undeterred by the wimpy Russian 25mm AA. (And notice, the AA HMG doesn't even fire at planes). It KOs the ZIS-3 with its MGs on the second pass. Another is solid against infantry, then it calls it a day. One of my MGs tries to keep the 25mm AA pinned and gets in a duel with it, but this time it is the one having slope-crest trouble and it is ineffective as a result.

My infantry advances to the first shellholes and foxholes, firing the while. The sIG has recovered from its pin and sends 2 fat shells a minute into the mass of routing infantry that used to be the Russian center.

A few holdouts fire back before fire shifts onto them, with one 2 DP LMG squad hitting 2 men in my right front squad. They draw down full platoon fire at 125m from crack Jagers, HMG fire, meat chopper fire, etc. They run away the following minute and are cut down before they can get over the ridge. A good sIG shell KOs 2 running units at this point, and the remaining 10 uninjured Russians surrender. Their casualties were 77 men. Mine were 5. Elapsed time - 11 minute, victory total.

Fire is cover.

[FaxisAxis]

Fire is cover. Advance/hide. I see. I'll keep this in mind, next time I have no cover to take.

Also, I have a lot to learn about world war II vehicle types and artillery. I just think in generic terms like large machine guns, SMGs, mortar, tanks, half-tracks etc. I don't want to be playing this like a WWII RTS action game-e.g. the latest clickfest "company of heros" where you are fighting all over the map or rather your "tanks" and "troops" are for you as you press the "attack" button and go to your HQ to instantly generate more and more of them. Believe it or not I hate these games I find very little depth in them -they're mostly to do with speed and quantity- and with little to wonder or learn about as to what might have been real applicable, practicable combat tactics and war strategies for those particular battles or likely WWII senarios. But anyway I really need to get familiar with is the specifics of these weapons and units, what exactly they are good against when to use them, their weaknesses and of course in this regard what secrets my opponent may have and how to be prepared to counter him.