help with quick battles; attacking russians

[FaxisAxis]

Can anyone give me some general advice for quick battles and attacking when playing as the axis. I always play as axis and am usually German and attacking and of course more often than not against the Russians who seem to have three times as many unites and everthing else they need to slaughter me. I keep having major defeats and have only had one or two wins one of which in I was defending as the Italians.

I am playing "combined arms", "300 points", 30 turns, full fog with everthing else pretty much random. Trying to keep it small and simple

My guys seem to have no balls-yes I keep my HQ with them. I move them little by little through whatever cover is available and when it comes time to face and fight or ambush they fall apart as soon as the russians start shooting, as though the russians are giants and regardless of the fact that they are covered by long range artilary and the enemy is suppressed they always shake, panic and break. Often though its seems my unites are surrounded and that there are 3 of their unites to my one.

Also they never have enough cover to attack without exposing themselve at some point even midway sometimes when I'm reconing to their territory from one merger point of cover to the next through contact/hide.

And another thing I noticed: why on earth do I have no line of sight where they do? and with this same unite(that supposedly has no line of sight)they are getting fired at and suppressed as though the russians could shoot though hills and what not?!

"It's like I can see you but you can see me he he"

I'd appreciate any practical advice on attacking with a small army with limited cover, from any of you who have played enough battles, who are seasoned veterans, because I know anyone can get lucky on occasion in this game just as I have a couple of times, even though I'd planned my moves.

[The_Enigma]

What year is it you usally play?

[FaxisAxis]

what year? 1941 or 42 where a couple. why?

[JasonC]

You are stupid, that's it your problem. Also the game cheats, it is actually a secret communist conspiracy to slander the ubermenschen.

That is a gentle way of pointing out that you are whining and it sounds childish. CM is a realistic game and you need to use realistic tactics to accomplish anything. It isn't a cartoony shooter.

Men don't like being shot. Full stop.

An attack has to succeed even though it is delivered by men, who don't like being shot.

There is no way to conduct an attack without being shot. There is no way to make men like being shot.

Attackers generally move closer to defenders who can remain stationary. Moving men are easier to see and will sometimes not be in cover. You also can't shoot very well while moving, being shot at, and without cover.

So we have to relearn actual tactics from the start, instead of having comic book hero units who don't care whether they are shot. Or, you can be German about it and take a Tiger I, because the designers made those comic book units.

No, see, there are well known requirements to attack and tactics that are used.

First you have to arrange for superior firepower at any point you expect to attack. If you have 2 squads crossing a field, and there is a company on the other side, nothing you try to do will make the slightest difference.

How do you arrange this? By taking reasonable, capable forces, not blowing your point budget on useless items. By concentrating those forces on chosen points, instead of spreading them all over creation. By screening the rest of the field thinly to occupy more of the enemy, if anything is left there at all. By coordinating all arms, as to their range and conditions of use and proper targets etc.

Then you scout. You don't waltz the main body up to the enemy and expect them not to mind being shot at. Send a half squad.

Then there is packet movement. It was invented by the French in WW I and everybody since uses it. It was required by the aforementioned dislike men have for being shot etc. The way it works is very simple - most men aren't moving at any one moment in time. They are instead watching and ready to fire. A platoon moves from A to B by one squad at a time moving from A to B, with all the others waiting at A or B as the case may be.

If nobody shoots at any of them, they get there. Only spends time, which isn't scarce - bodies are scarce. If somebody shoots them, only one guy gets shot, not everybody. And the rest then fire back at the shooter and blow him away. As a result, the worst that happens is an exchange, not loss of the whole force.

There is no attacking without it.

Next comes proper combined arms. That means knowing the weapon and range needed to take out any given type of enemy. Every individual type has its counter (even Tiger Is, though the AI won't find them, see above in re those who need comic book levels of superiority to do anything).

There are two main ways combined arms are used and one way they aren't. The way they aren't is just not knowing anything and trying things one at a time, and all of them getting blown apart by perfect counters. The way that is used most often but is the wrong way, is "mindless mashing of like on like". People send the whole package, some of everything, and then fight infantry with infantry and tanks with tanks, etc. This leads to bloody brawling and works a bit, but is the wrong way to fight.

The right way has all the guys who aren't the right thing for a given enemy take cover and wait, while the right weapon is positioned and used, removing that piece of the enemy force. Selected bits of the coordinated enemy force at knocked out, specifically to leave it vulnerable to some other friendly asset. As soon as it is vulnerable that different friendly asset is unleashed in the most favorable possible circumstances for it. Repeat until the enemy throws up his hands or stops twitching.

What are some of those vulnerabilities? Well, enemy infantry can't hurt an HMG team in good cover at 250-300m. They probably can't even locate it. Germans have the best HMGs in the game, and those provide easily half of their ranged infantry type firepower. Ergo, no attack on enemy infantry should go in without HMGs emplaced and overwatching it.

Those will cut up enemy repositionings. Position them so they see open ground areas between likely enemy positions, as well as the front of some of those themselves. Take your time about it and scout out the locations you intend to use, first, with ordinary squads. Those locations should not be ones the enemy could have started in, incidentally.

Enemy guns are the main threat to your tanks, because they are hard to see before they open up. Do not mash into them with your tanks. Instead scout with half squads and have mortars ready to take out any guns that open up. Keep your tanks keyholed, meaning with limited LOS to the enemy side of the field, to avoid getting shot at by every enemy gun. When a gun is located, get everyone vulnerable out of LOS and then bring up a spotter for your 81mms and patiently knock it out.

Scouts first will spot enemy tanks. Stalk them with your own, knowing the type and when you can engage it favorably. The heaviest enemy types may require special weapons and tactics, most will not. You always want to win the armor war first, drawing the enemy "trumps" in that respect before wading in with your infantry.

Next it will come time to actually attack a known enemy position. The main point there is that movement never takes ground. Fire takes ground. Send HE first, not bodies. A fire mission or tank fire or fire from an onboard gun. (Fire missions don't do trenches and are weak against buildings. The on map stuff can't reach deep into woods, while fire missions get nasty treebursts in those. Use the right weapon on the right target). Be patient and methodical about it, again. Do not rush in infantry waves because somebody is being shot at and you must do something now. Retreat the guys shot at and bring up what the enemy position requires.

The infantry attack itself must be delivered using the "advance" movement order. Units hit while using other orders are much more likely to break. (Occasionally a "fast" dash across a narrow stretch of open also helps, but avoid it for sustained periods). The smallest force that can even think about it is a full platoon, nnd half a company or a full company work better.

The idea is to spread the enemy fire over many units and minutes and let everyone have time to rally continually from its effects. Fire at range into cover pins men but it doesn't break them, and in a few minutes they will be fine. Your own men need to pin a few shooters and then move someone closer, repeating as more enemy shooters appear. The foremost units will always be messed up - they are only the shield. The wave behind them does the actual shooting and accomplishes things. There is no infantry attack without depth.

Those might get you started. If you are more specific about a particular problem, I can offer greater detail on a specific method. Generalized whining is not conducive to specific advice.

[Mike Summers]

Now JasonC, coddling of new members is not to be tolerated.

[dieseltaylor]

I think the mosy obvious points have been overlooked - much to my surprise.

FaxisAxis is playing 300 pointers! So he is playing on a map 220 by 680 which really does not give much room to play in. The Russians can afford a company of infantry whereas the Germans are probably looking at a weak company with 50 mm mortars and MG's, and say two MkII 's.

So his 84 infantry sans support have to dislodge a Company[123] Russian infantry from the two trenches and woodland around two flags. Never happen unles we move this to the steppes or play on a larger map where flanking fire might give the Germans some hope,

I think if you are playing with less than 1500 the game really does not work well.

[The_Enigma]

havnt got the game infront of me so i cant check prices, but with 300 points would one not be able to get 2 pioneer platoons ... possbily some flamethrowers and a Stug III or PnzIV to chuck HE around.

A small engineering force should be able to dislodge such a force.

Then again, a few platoons ... lose the mortars and get infantry guns?

One could try buying the force the OP has been getting and try smacking them hard on one flank, everything you have agaisnt a small ammount of them ... then get the next point.

As for asking what year you where playing, you can use that to figure what you have available, how much they are etc and overall could help give a better chance at some help.

[JasonC]

Um, attackers get +50% points.

The only 1941 company the Russians can afford for 300 or less is the Recon C as conscripts, and if they take that they have nothing else, including zero anti tank capability.

A good Russian 300 point defense in 1941 has something like 1 4 squad rifle platoon with 50mm mortar taken as greens, 2 Maxim MGs in 2 trenches, 1 76mm gun and an ampulet, and 1 T-26. This gives good ranged firepower from a variety of tough weapons and redundant anti tank abilities. But the infantry manpower is around 50 guys, 60 if you count the MG teams as infantry equivalent.

Another option would be to count on a spoiling barrage from corps level 122 guns taken as conscripts or green, plus a TRP. You'd give up the T-26, the ampulet, and one of the entrenched MGs, though. That relies on breaking the attacking infantry with one big stonk, while the 76mm is alone to face the enemy armor.

A German force attacking that would get 450. A typical flexible Panzer division force to try it would be 2 veteran Panzer rifle platoons (each with 50mm mortar and 3 2 LMG squads), a Pz IVE, and Me-109 strafing (5 passes with 3 MGs). Can't afford to lose the tank though. The 2x50mm mortars and the air have to deal with enemy guns. If they do then the PzIV can deal with the MGs etc.

A more focused German force might go for HE firepower instead of razzle dazzle, by taking one of the platoons as regulars the other vet, then changing the AFV to a StuG IIIE, and adding a 150mm sIG and an SPW-251/2 (81mm mortar halftrack). That gives massive HE firepower, though the 150mm has to live to deliver most of it. Doesn't have the vehicle MGs of the previous. But the 2x50mm plus the high ammo 81mm vehicle can hammer guns and the 150mm just blows up entire areas. Then there is as much infantry manpower as the defenders have, and it is higher quality and better armed.

[The_Enigma]

Originally posted by JasonC:

Um, attackers get +50% points.

Still, its enough to get as we have both said, some HE heavy stuff to blast your way through.

[dieseltaylor]

JasonC

I chose August 41 randomly and there are 3 different Companies avialable and even a Battalion - which I chose.

Strangely aware of the attackers point spend I say the Germans can afford one proper company with some spend left or those Auks company with the 80 men I mentioned and plenty of spend.

The random terrain I had delivered in Northeren Russia had reasonable woods with the two large flags in the two largest woods. I am resonably confident that they would not be shifted by a 150mm or a Stug etc simply as the terrain would render them fairly useless.

On such a narrow frontage there is little hope but to plow ahead and with so much enemy firepower in good cover your infantry could be written down in short order.

On a wider map - possibly a different story.

[The_Enigma]

Then the answer is simple .... flamethrowers ... lots and lots of flmaethrowers

Am currently playing on a smallish map ... but ith alot more points PBEM.

I have quite a few BT7s (think thats what there called) left. I have them shooting HE into the woods, the small cal rounds are rather ineffective it would seem at killing the Germans but pinning them in conjection with my infantry assualt has seemed to have done the trick ... although there was alot more resistance and not enough HE ....quite a few of my guys are dead.

[FaxisAxis]

First off, jason, your curtly calling me stupid right off the bat when you don't even know me was unwarranted and if you feel that strong a need to do so without making youself appear stupid: ("You are stupid, that's it your problem")

I suggest you say it the correct way: you are stupid, that's your problem. I am certainly stupid even if I can't win these battles- do you remember when you first started playing CM? Bet you didn't know exactly what to do at first either.

Furthermore, general have you gone off you rocker! Read my message over. I am not whining. No where in my message am I whining. Since when is asking for advice in a forum under "tips and tricks" considered whining.

Now it was not my intention to get into a never ending, name calling argument. So let me just get a few things clear about the battles I was doing

some I am convince - regardless of you stating that attackers get +%50- some where impossible-I doubt even you could have beat then. I seemed to be drawn a bad hand each time. You see -partly on your advice, jason, from a previous tread- I was setting up my battles with combined arms for both sides, 300 points and everything else was random. And that's where I most have gone wrong: just combined arms. So some of the time I wouldn't even get an MG and most of the time not even a tank. Yes my unites and HQs where high ranking but the Russians had far more than me and as someone said here the map was a very narrow strip.

As for your advice, no wonder you think me stupid. I already know about such basic tactics, I must have read them in a million places and have been using them all along. They did not suffice in these situations.

And no I do not take this game for a comic strip adventure or a cartoony RTS. I started playing this game because I thought it had real tactics where you plan things with a great amount of depth, not just a mouse clicking fest with a bunch or fictitious behaving tanks.

Thank you, dieseltaylor, (hope I spelt it right) for reading through my message and understanding it and considering what might have been the problem in my given situation and not outright blaming me and falsely accusing me of whining.

[The_Enigma]

reading through your post, you may wanna set up your game so practically everything is random like you have stated it is now but instead buy your own forces (which it seems you have not).

That way you will be able to get a better idea of what works with each other and in whatever terrain ... imo

[JasonC]

F-A - more whining it's impossible bullfeathers.

When you stop actually whining and excusing yourself for it to boot, I might consider helping you with actual advice. Until then, pound sand.

[z-warfare]

I say, it's not about winning, it's about how you play the game.

[DREVAK]

Honestly I can't see a 300 points attack with random settings being of any help. Sure, it's just me, but... if I were you, I'd go for something less... exotic. Points, battle type and settings wise.

[DavidFields]

FaxisAxis,

For not being one of the "regulars" to this forum, I am going to be a bit bold here. JasonC has, it appears, better than an encyclopedic knowledge of WW-II equipment and tactics. He will write off paragraph after helpful paragraph of detailed descriptions (I have on my to-do list to reread his discourse on Russian attack doctrine, to further compare it with the more common descriptions of German and American/British doctrine--narrower, echelon application of force, if I remember the gist)

I have never seen him this rude before (maybe I have missed it). Perhaps he should have considered not answering the post, if the helpful urge did not possess him.

[Joachim]

FaxisAxis,

first I'd suggest that you search for some threads by a certain JasonC about attacking with inf. It is with Soviets, but that doesn't matter. They should be some help. Just ignore Jason being rude. You don't have to like him to find some of his posts useful.

Then I suggest three things:

1.) Patience.

2.) Patience.

3.) Patience.

Do not race your men across the map. No matter how short the scenario is - as a beginner, learn to move your troops in textbook style.

The other things to consider:

a) Overwatch is very important.

Bunching up seems to be a favourite for some people because then they have more firepower in a given area - but an arty barrage might ruin the party. I prefer concentrated firepower - it is not necessary to be in the same spot to be able to fire at the same target. Learn to read the map so you can achieve this. This is my preferred method.

c) Recce is important. A half-squad advances ahead of the plt if the area is unsafe. It is the bullet magnet. But the rest of the plt is in firing position should somebody try to shoot. If you keep a good formation, you should be able to outnumber lone enemy units. If there is a whole plt firing - try to get your half-squad to safety while just fixing the enemy. Then bring your killers: Arty, tanks, lots of inf.

d) use your bonus HQs accordingly. Stealth bonus for the recce, combat bonus for those doing the firing. Morale for recce ain't a good idea - it is better to have them hug the ground when there is incoming. As they are often without cover, brave deeds are deadly for them. Morale is good for shooters.

e) Early Soviets are cheap. They are even cheaper as they are low quality. If you have high quality troops, you have less than them, despite being on the attack. So try to buy a mix of vet/reg troops. These usually do the job for me.

f) Frontal attacks are deadly. Try to find weak spots. The trick vs the AI is to outmaneuver him, capture a flag and await its counterattack there. Then mop up and take the remaining flags. It is much better to be the defender - even when you are attacking. That was the strategy of Germany in WW2. Bypass the enemy. Set up blocking positions. Let the enemy choose to run out of supplies or to attack to remove you from your positions.

g) Cheat. Yes! Cheat. If a single turn has an outcome you think is wrong, re-run that turn without changing the orders. If the outcome is about the same, you made a mistake. Change a few commands, but do not use the info gathered in the turn (which is tough). Try to find a tactic that you would have applied with the info you had before. Think about your mistake. Why was it a mistake. Learn from your mistakes.

Gruß

Joachim

PS: Just in case... always use the right commands. Move to contact with covered arcs when close to the enemy. They are slower but less prone to panic. Advance across open ground.

[Broompatrol]

A question regarding JasonC's reply:

Is it okay to be stupid if you don't whine?

[ August 23, 2006, 04:39 PM: Message edited by: Broompatrol ]

[FaxisAxis]

Broompatrol, are you asking the illustrious JC if you can be stupid as long as you don't whine?

[FaxisAxis]

Ok, JasonC, you want something from me? To apologize. Ok, I ask your pardon, JasonC, for if I seemed to be whinning too much.

You want me to come back with a message all with nothing but praise for CM2, with a tone full of glory; how I keep winning ever game and don't need to bother anyone for advice but: "Just here to say JasonC that I have been reading all your posts and they have been of great insight to me and etc..." And you want me to say how I learned something while in battle and remember what you had said in such and such a paragraph and how I extrapolated from it my own tactic and ask you does my conclusion seem logical?

Yes, I should just read and learn, apply, keep playing and be patient and of course stop in now and then to ask about a particular difficultly I am having in a specific battle I am playing give you the details and ask you or anyone else here what they think of this given stituation.

[FaxisAxis]

Much thanks to you Joachim. For some very straight forward and valuable advice. Believe it or not some of what you said should help me alot. I did have my Germans set to high quality troops and shouldn't have. No wonder I was always surrounded and out numbered though I bunched my troops to together. That was a carelessly overlooked mistake on my part and very good observation on your part.

[FaxisAxis]

Rankorian, I Know this forum is chockfull of his posts which seem to be abe to answer anything anyone asks regarding WW-II equipment and tactics and even expands far beyond what the questioner asked.

[JasonC]

BroomPatrol - precisely! Ignorance is the natural state of man and nothing to be ashamed of. Not being willing to admit one is in that state and to straightforwardly do something about it by asking help from others, is what is shameful.

When someone asks "how do I do x?" they are admitting they don't know how to do something other people clearly know how to do. It is an honest and straightforward transaction.

When instead someone says "it is impossible to do x, waaa" they are whining, and the response they are fishing for it not actual advice about how to do x, but a self validating excuse for their failure, by other people saying "yep, x is impossible, gosh, you are as brilliant as I am but it just can't be done". Which, nine times out of ten, is the purest horsefeathers and mutual flattery by conceited people resisting learning anything.

The original poster showed the symptoms already, but more definitively by his reaction to my original post than by anything he said before it.

The precondition for instruction is willingness to learn. The precondition for willingness to learn is the elementary humility to admit others know more about the matter than you do yourself. You can't show a genuine willingness to learn and simultaneously lecture others about the very matters you seek instruction about, and excuse your past efforts and your expertise. It is pride resisting instruction, not honesty seeking it.

The original poster asked rhetorically whether I ever didn't know much about CM and had to learn the ropes. Of course I learned much from other players, in games and here. But I also kicked "A close encounter" to the curb the second time I played it. I didn't need instruction on that level. He does, and he will learn a heck of a lot more after he admits it.

Until then, it simply isn't worth my time to wrestle with his hangups about learning from others.

[Corvidae]

Faxis, The soviets are strong on defence, get used to it,

Beating that defence takes patience and common sense,

Early war soviets have big squads of poor quality troops, use mortars to pound them into the dirt.

Protect your infantry,, Visualize yourself as one of your german heer boys, Or better yet WALK SIMILAR GROUND WITH A HEER SIZED PACK LOAD, and try to imagine russians with PPsH's and rifles, blocking your way.

Try playing against some of the better players here,

and might i dare suggest, try having an open mind,