tools4fools Posted June 7, 2003 Share Posted June 7, 2003 A few more adjustements and some more detail work and my "dunkelgelb" Pz IV will be done. Afterwards it is supposed to get a camo pattern taken from this picture of a PzIVG at the Aberdeen Proving Ground in its original wartime colors. Since the colors are faded my question is: -there are "dunkelgelb" oversprayed dots -there are wide brown stripes -there are thin dark stripes, dark green I guess but then what are the light, greyish stripes??? A light pale green? Or that kind of "cream cheese" color seen on some Hetzers? Any help and suggestion much appreciated! The mod that will get the camo looks like this so far: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GJK Posted June 7, 2003 Share Posted June 7, 2003 I'd say it's a lt. gray: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tools4fools Posted June 8, 2003 Author Share Posted June 8, 2003 Gray? Possible, maybe color from the Luftwaffe was used as it looks too bright for the early war dark gray. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gautrek Posted June 8, 2003 Share Posted June 8, 2003 If you are using PSP to do this mod. Have a look at my tutorial in my sig for help on getting rid of pinkies. As you seem to have a few 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tools4fools Posted June 9, 2003 Author Share Posted June 9, 2003 Those pinkies are easy to get rid off. More difficult to get rid off are the Germans my PBEM opponent is sending inno battle - in pink ballerina dresses as he said... And one of his pink Panthers just had one of my little T-70's as appetizer... But that's way off topic. Still looking for ideas on the bright color. No experts around? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Måkjager Posted June 9, 2003 Share Posted June 9, 2003 T4F I have a book covering German Camouflage colours 1939-45 with that same pix in it..only it is facing the other direction . The author identifies the small spots as Dunkelgelb , the wide brown as Brun RAL 8017. He also asserts that the base colour is a "Pale Grey" , and the dark lines that break up the outline so effectively as "Black". Another point from the author to look out for is the forward turret shield. Starting from its front edge and working back to the first set of latches/hinges the colours run in this order... brown/white stripe ?/black stripe/ brown / dunkelgelb spot / white stripe? / black stripe / light grey. The dunkelgelb colours from that pix look like the "Dunkelgelb nach Muster" ..which was more like the colour you are using on the Pz IV vehicle mod. As for being a "wartime" cammo scheme...i have a nagging doubt that its a post war repaint due to this. To the left of the pix you can see the edge of another vehicle. This vehicle is the rear side of a Jagdpanzer IV F. It has a "dunkelgelb" base with very dark crosshatch lines....and spots that look very much like the "light grey" we see on the Pz IV.The same road and fence can be seen in both pix..and you say the pix ar from the Aberdeen Proving Grounds..so i am leaning towards a US repaint to spruce it up. Regards Måkjager [ June 09, 2003, 05:43 AM: Message edited by: Måkjager ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted June 9, 2003 Share Posted June 9, 2003 I did something unscientific but maybe useful. I brought the file into Photoshop and tried to adjust the colors to get blue sky and green grass. My interpretation of the adjusted picture is: Base color seems to be red primer (though some of that color is applied over Zimmerit on the lower hull - why would hey put red primer over that?) Dark verticle stripes are black Light verticle stripse appear to be white Smaller areas appear to be a cream color, probable a faded yellow. 4-5 areas on the upper turret skirt and on the coupla appear to be strong panzer yellow, as though rusty bits had been touched up recently. After all that, the way the camou scheme seems to extend down over the wheels give me some concern about whether this scheme is just museum officials being clever. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tools4fools Posted June 9, 2003 Author Share Posted June 9, 2003 Now this starts getting results. First, thanks Måkjager - and what is title and author of that book you got there? Is it still in print? In the book I have there is a series of those Aberdeen pictures. There is this PzIV, a Lynx, a Grille, a Hetzer, a Hummel, A Jagdpanther, an Elephant, a Sturmtiger, A Jagdtiger and two JPzIV. All pics are faded the same way as the one of the Pz IV and all are supposedly taken shortly afer WW II displaying original camo. Now about the pics itself: - Sturmtiger and Jagdtiger display "ambush" pattern. - Elefant looks so messy that no pattern is visible really anymore. - Jagdpanther got strong redbrown stripes with dunkelgelb and some green stripes - Hummel is plain dunkelgelb - Hetzer got Tri-camo. - Grille got some kind of Tri-camo as well - First JPz and Lynx got those dark crosshatch lines. In fact the JPz is the one seen on the left edge of the pic I think. Interesting is here that the wheels and tracks of the Lynx are already overgrown by small plants, the JPz IV's gun barrel is broken and both vehicles were scrapped during the Korean War. - Other JPz is dunkelgelb with Brown stripes, bi-color camo. It is mentione that this JPz was later repainted with little regard to historical accuracy and reamins untill today at the museum. Most of the cam pattern seem to be realistic to me. Questions are about those crosshatch lines, but I have seen them in drawings of a Kingtiger as well (wasn't that the original BO KT as well?) and maybe this camo pattern was not that uncommon? Which leaves the Pz IV which doesn't fit even into that category really. The black stirpes could be very dark green RAL 6003. I think in Panzercolors they mention that depending on what was used as thinner and how much it was thinned it could be anything from a very pale green to a very dark green. Spots are new dunkelgelb overspray. Brown is RAL 8017 as you mentioned. White and Light gray stripes are in my opinion the same color. I think the difference occurs because of: - light and shadow on the tank (look at the suspension; the upper part of the stripes in the shadow looks very much like the gray stripes on the turret, the lower part not in the shadow like the turret's white stripes. -Old and faded film; don't know what effect this has on the contrast and how well film at those days could capture contrast. If being original camo it then could be a light gray (maybe Luftwaffe color used?), a dunkelgelb variant (I have seen dunkelgelb variants which looked kind of pale green) or...? As for being repaints: Why repaint the JPz IV with a broken gun barrel and not the intact one? The fence in the back and the road there is a river as well. Thinking that this JPz IV and this PzIV are on display and therefore repainted - but then the Hummel and the other JPz are there too (side by side) and are not in such good condition. Contrary the Hetzer with its neatly applied new looking tri-color camo sits in the middle of "junkjard" as do the other tanks (Elefant, Jagdpanther, etc)...makes all no sense to me. What do you think? Marcus **** 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Måkjager Posted June 9, 2003 Share Posted June 9, 2003 Marcu..the book is titled... "Wehrmacht -Heer - 1939-1945 Camouflage Colours" by Tomas Chory. ISBN is 80-902634-1-0. It has those same pictures you were talking about ( except no Hummel/Hetzer..but a b&w Brumbär). The Jagdpanther cammo scheme is for real...red primer with some dunkelgelb and small white stripes. Hiliary Doyle recounted a tale to me in my local model club about Walter Speilberger serving in a vehicle with that colour scheme at the end of the war. Marcus..by any chance does the book you have give a serial number for the Lynx? I am asking as i have the Museum Ordanace Special here covering the Luchs and it shows several pix of different Luchs captured by the US Army. A vehicle with the serial number Fgst.Nr.200131 (APG) appears in a couple of pix and it looks like the same vehicle in the colour pix ( due tothe damage to the middle stowage box ) The Kingtiger cross hatch...you are thinking of a vehicle that served with the sPzAbt 501 on the Russian Front. As for the different paint conditions..it could be due to the time the photographs were taken......some of them "may" have been cleaned up..while the others had not been sen to. As to the "light grey" ......anything is possible i suppose Marcus as at that stage of the war things were a bit hectic on the supply side..and the crew may have used what ever was at hand to cammo the Pz IV. Interesting pix al the same...and i hope it does not give you too much of a head ache figuring out. regards Måkjager 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted June 9, 2003 Share Posted June 9, 2003 Still, the peculiar thing. If you follow the black (dark green?) lines down on the lower hull, the lines on the wheels line up with the lines on the hull. That means the vehicle hasn't moved since the camou was applied. And anyone who's followed the course of Aberdeen vehicles over time will know the staff have applied some very odd paint jobs at times. [ June 09, 2003, 12:22 PM: Message edited by: MikeyD ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Måkjager Posted June 9, 2003 Share Posted June 9, 2003 Killer logic Mikey Rgards Måkjager 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted June 9, 2003 Share Posted June 9, 2003 Does anyone know if the Bovington paintjobs are closer to reality? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tools4fools Posted June 9, 2003 Author Share Posted June 9, 2003 Thanks for the title of the book. Would you recommend buying it? There is no serial number on the pic of the Lynx but it has damage on the middle storage box (one roughly trinagle shaped hole, one small round hole). The Lynx has TWO crosses on the side hull as well, one on the center, one on the last storage box. Guess that red primer on the Jagdpanther is RAL 8012 anti rust paint - looks real ugly in my opinion. Maybe the Red Baron would have liked it. MikeyD sure got a point - or was it a real coincidence that when they parked the tank there it just got to stop the same way as when it was painted on the other side of the Atlantic? Don't think so. Guess have to look for a differnet camo pattern. Thanks for the help and suggestions! Marcus **** 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Måkjager Posted June 9, 2003 Share Posted June 9, 2003 Marcus..the camouflage book is worth it as it has colour chips of the paint used by the Werhmacht during the war. it also gives a indepth history of german camouflage painting. The pix you speak of regarding the Luchs are one and the same as that appear in the cammo book...and some b&w pictures of the same vehicle appear in the MOS publication covering the Luchs...this time the setting is a workshop/storage shed in Aberdeen Proving Grounds. ( afaik ) You got some mail btw Marcus regards Måkjager 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Måkjager Posted June 9, 2003 Share Posted June 9, 2003 Andreas...having looked at the b&w pix of the vehicles captured in Normandy 1944 i am inclined to believe that they appeared in a bi green tone. The vehicles captured by the US Army belonged to 1.Kp.Pz-Aufklerung-Abt 9 of the 9th pz Division as this was the ONLY unit issued with it on the Western front. Service regulations and time of year would have meant a green over yellow scheme for the summer of 1944. regards Måkjager 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tools4fools Posted June 9, 2003 Author Share Posted June 9, 2003 Originally posted by Måkjager: You got some mail btw Marcus Didn't find anything in my hotmail even not in the junkmail folder. Whatever it was, you can resend it to tools4fools@intergga.ch 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruno Weiss Posted June 10, 2003 Share Posted June 10, 2003 Aberdeen schmaberdeen, I would wonder meself if the good ole boys at Aberdeen went to all the trouble and expense, not to mention research, to get the exact colors, shades, and pattern precisely right, or if'n maybe in the infinate wisdom of the army what you see is "good nuff fer gument work". That thought aside, even if they were precise those old hulks at Aberdeen sit out there in the rain, snow, wind, sun, and pollution day in, day out, for long enough to fade even the best of what Detroit might slap on it. (And I don't remember anyone up there doing any "a waxa on, a waxa off"), anytime I was there. Best turn to the books. [ June 09, 2003, 09:14 PM: Message edited by: Bruno Weiss ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kwazydog Posted June 10, 2003 Share Posted June 10, 2003 If you look closely it looks like they have also painted the tracks, too Tools, even if this is a wartime paint scheme in my opinion it is certainly not a typical scheme found on most vehicles. If it is origional Id say it was a rush job very very late in the war. Here is a modelling site that might give you some ideas if you dont find anywhere better. http://www.track-link.net/ Dan 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tools4fools Posted June 11, 2003 Author Share Posted June 11, 2003 Damn, didn't pay attention to what really looks like pinted stripes on the tracks! Those Germans, even on a late war rush job they had time to paint the tracks... Thanks for the link, had it already, but I was intentionally looking for something different than the usual tri or ambush cammo. Makjager helped a lot - thanks again! Marcus **** 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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