Pz IV tactics?

[Bone_Vulture]

I wager an important factor in CM:BB combined arms tactics is to keep the probing infantry within an "arm's reach" of the armor. Meaning that the tanks are keyholed, but still have a field of fire wide enough to allow supporting the infantry when they get caught up in ambushes.

[Mr. Tittles]

Whats wrong with the picture is that the StuGs have become the manuver element and the Panzer IV the overwatch.

[JasonC]

Yes BV, that is right. It does depend on the amount of cover and the scale of the AT threat, though. When the AT threat is low, it works best to keep the tanks 100-200 yards behind the infantry, out of infantry AT range but close enough to see the same things and rapidly outshoot anything the infantry fully locates. But that can be too exposed a position for the tanks sometimes, particularly if you have to worry about enemy uber-armor (i.e. something that might pop up that not only can kill you, you can't kill it back).

As for Tittles, they didn't actually use them together. But yes StuGs overwatched from the rear while Pz IVs attacked by closing, as part of tank-infantry teams. The StuGs didn't have turrets or MGs and to the historical participants that shouted "don't try to close". To CM players, frontal invulnerability (which is overmodeling, not history, vs. the Russian 76mm) shouts "charge".

[walpurgis nacht]

PzIV:

-Try only to engage enemy armor when you have a superior number of tanks in position to engage him. Preferable from at least 2 totally seperate angles.

-Use the PzIV in pairs, side by side, literally as close to each other as you can get. This way if you engage, say a single t34/85, you have a better chance of killing him before he kills even one of you. Never use tanks in pairs one in front of the other though. The front tank might panic and try to reverse and get "stuck", or even worse the front tank might brew up if hit, and create smoke blocking the LOS of your back tank. If you’re going to lose one tank, which is always a possibility, you want to be damn sure you get him with the second.

-When it is time to engage, don’t be afraid to “fast” move into your attack positions. You want the clearest blue LOS line possible. “hunt” only brings you into position for the worst shot, or first sight shot, typically a duller blue line. . . .you want to go a meter or 2 farther forward than that. This is especially important if the enemy is on higher ground than you.

-You have to win the initiative. Keep your armor unbuttoned when it’s time to engage. Likewise force the enemy tank(s) you will engage to button. The unbuttoned tank, all else being equal, will likely get 2 shots off before the buttoned enemy can respond.

Time a plethora of distractions for the enemy tank at the beginning of the turn you want to engage him. Shoot and scoot with some quick mech vehicle or light armor from a totally different direction . Just pop up long enough for him to see you (if you know you can successfully button him at the beginning of the turn, make sure you stay in his LOS long enough for him to spot you), and zip back down to safety. If that’s not available, don’t be afraid to be reckless and rush a suicide split squad at him. The main thing is you want his turret to be pointed as far away from your panzers when they move up for the kill. Timing is everything.

-armor cover arcs. If you are moving into a kill position at an awkward angle you can give yourself more initiative advantage by using armor cover arcs. Prepare them so that they will line up perfectly with the enemy as soon as he comes into LOS. Look ahead and imagine the correct angle.

-smoke. Learn to use it. It is a key advantage of the PzIV. Let’s say you are forced into a “fair” fight, 2 pzIVs vs 2 t34/85s. Before you roll up to engage, lay down some smoke to block the LOS of 1 of the t34s, so when you roll up you can engage then one at a time. Again, timing on this is key. Start firing the smoke at the very beginning of the turn you want to engage, and plan to be in a position of attack around 40 seconds into the turn, just as the smoke is starting to take effect. This is another good time for armored cover arcs. Once the pzIV is finished firing smoke, he will have his turret in the right direction to engage.

There are many other little things you can do depending on what equipment you have at your disposal, but that’s a good rough guide/start anway.

[ February 07, 2004, 03:03 AM: Message edited by: Walpurgis Night ]

[Redwolf]

Advancing the StuGs and having the Panzer IVs overwatching is just pushing the weaknesses of the StuGs.

They have thin side armor but must present the side armor by their requirement to stop and turn to fire. Plus, the awful turn rates in CMBB (better in CMAK) make it much worse.

[Denwad]

yeah, I just used a PzIV in a CMBB QB yesterday, that was knocked out by a SU-76 that I ignored and stuck around for the rest of the game.

Su-76 survived three infantry assaults

[Bone_Vulture]

Originally posted by Denwad:

yeah, I just used a PzIV in a CMBB QB yesterday, that was knocked out by a SU-76 that I ignored and stuck around for the rest of the game.

Su-76 survived three infantry assaults

Heh, I've clipped a PzIV with a SU-76 too. It's the turret shot that kills.

[Joachim]

*****Spoiler ahead****

A very nice scenario for the PzIV lang is Action at Manuchskaya. A perfect training scenario. Key for German success is the armor protecting the little available infantry.

The outset allows for the Germans to attack from two sides, though the Soviet armor can hide from both angles. Moving the infantry ahead of the tanks, borg spotting eases identification. A few well placed FOs or MGs (spotters with binoculars) on the hills around the bridgehead will help, too.

The terrain is suited to keyhole on suspected enemy infantry or gun positions and blast them. The terrain allows for long lines of sight. The Germans have freedom to maneuver, the Soviets are packed in a bridgehead.

The PzIV in pairs or plts along the ridges can dominate the field. They will kill from 1200m+ with minimal hits from the Soviet tanks.

IMHO the good positions for the German tanks are key. Play it, see what works, and try to use what you learned, though you won't find perfect conditions like that very often! Most of your tactics in further games should be to achieve such positions.

Gruß

Joachim

[manchildstein (ii)]

i like the panzer IV in '41... the D model... not too expensive.. but has that 'improved' 20mm side armor from the C model... i figure if the turret is modelled improperly, it will be less glaring in '41... in late war... i'll just take the stug IV instead....

as for operating with the D model in '41... i like to have at least 1 or 2 platoons.. as someone mentioned... they need to keep well back of the infantry (and armored cars and light tanks)... let the forward units get into some contact.. then advance into keyhole positions as someone else described... sometimes a whole platoon in a line looking down a single fire lane!

recently i discarded this SOP and sent my IV D tanks a bit too far forward... telling myself... 'well this is the last time i move them so far forward'... as it turned out.. i lost 2 of the IV D tanks in the exact same 'keyhole/overwatch' spot.. to a phreaking ampulomet... ARGHHHH....

definitely keep the infantry at least a couple hundred meters forward... at least until you know better what it is you're dealing with...

grins

[JasonC]

With short 75s in 1941, the E is much better than the D. The front hull armor will stop 45mm rounds. The F1 has a thinner hull but is still an improvement because the front turret is 45mm proof, which in that era is quite valuable. (All the Russian lights use it, T-70s use it, plus the towed ones of course). The F1 sometimes has higher rariety but the E is common.

Later on, the best model is the IV G (late), which has a fast turret and skirts. The H is only marginally worse. Either of those is a fine tank. Don't take the J - the turret slows down and that is a key feature of the better IVs. A pair of IV Gs (late), moving tightly together with covered arcs centered on opposite sides (20-30 degrees off the "bow" either way), will pick up and eliminate threats very efficiently.

[manchildstein (ii)]

it looks like the savings on a (regular) platoon of D versus E is only 25 points... but D is probably more realistic for a jul '41 battle... maybe one platoon of each with a platoon of either pz 1 or 2 tanks to round out the company....

a 'company' like this... backed with a couple of platoons of armored cars and a 1205 point (mechanized) recon battalion... that's a pretty good combined arms attack/assault force... maybe throw in a couple of 150mm IG or 3 or 4 75mm IG... remember the recon battalion will have 2 x 75mm IG and 3 x 37mm atg organic to it

anyway... it looks like the pz IV D is probably just proof against atrs.... send the infantry ahead, followed by light tanks and armored cars... try not to expose the vehicles to too many potential defensive firing positions...

then when the battle starts heating up... the forward infantry and light armor are firing on things.. bring the pz IV tanks up into select firing positions... yet behind the front pickets by 200 metres or so....

the armored cars and pz 1 tanks can more or less go for broke.. sometimes dashing way out in front of the lead infantry.. once in awhile there isn't anything there... this allows the main body to speed up its timetable...

when dashing armored cars or light tanks ahead... i still look to move them from cover to cover, and plan their moves to end in what appears to be decent cover....

if you were playing a 1500-point jul '41 assault, you could purchase:

(all regular quality)

1205 point mech recon battalion

platoon (4) PZ IV D

platoon (4) PZ IV E

platoon (4) PZ I B

platoon (4) PSW 222 armored car

2 x 150mm IG

2 x SPW 251/1 halftrack

that would be 2374 out of 2380 available points...

not a bad force.. and a good chance to test out some of the theory discussed on this thread...

it would be especially interesting if the russian player were limited to a ratio of light tanks versus heavy... such as 2 platoons of light (t-26 or bt) for every 1 heavy (kv or t-34) platoon purchased...

[Abteilung]

Early war: Want to see those Pz.III's get into position to engage heavy armor fast and without fear of much reply? Buy a section of Pz.IV for every platoon of Pz.III and use them to drop copious amounts of smoke to block long LOS to the III's. The Pz.III's can then close to kill range. I've found that the L/24 armed Pz.IV usually gets a decent complement of smoke rounds, so it is almost always possible to lay multiple screens within the course of a battle.

Looking at early war TO&E reveals my method is slightly against the actual composition of a panzer company containing the Pz.IV (mittler panzer kompanie), however, the Germans did tend to mix and match as the situation demanded.

Edit: Also, using a StuG to "pin" (pre-occupy, more accurately) the intended target(s) is a decent idea.

On a side note: During my time in WWIIOnline, Axis armor would often use the StuG.B to pin heavy B1 bis, Somua 35, Mk.II infantry tanks while Pz.38(t) worked around the flanks. I was once able to flank a B1 bis outside of Luxembourg (city) no more than 100m right of his starboard bow. I closed the 800m to 150m and placed one aimed shot into his turret side from a near right angle. All the while the char was trading shots with a StuG sitting on the edge of town and was completely oblivious to me or my movements. I fully expected to get shot, as there was no cover to be had anywhere. I just zig-zagged a bit and kept up comms with the StuG, telling him to keep shooting at the B1 until I could make the money shot.

If the B1 had been watching, he would have had to expose his radiator grill or turret side (weakness) to the StuG to engage me, depending on which weapon he wished to bring to bear. Either way, he would have ended up disabled or knocked out.

[ February 10, 2004, 07:16 PM: Message edited by: Abteilung ]

[JasonC]

Way too many vehicle types. Too many slow foot HMGs. Too much thin armor.

Just take 12 Pz IV Es (3 platoons), and 2 companies of motorized Panzergrenadiers. Add a 105mm FO and a couple of 81mm mortars - or an 81mm mortar halftrack (251/2) - to help deal with guns. You don't need all the other assorted dribs and drabs. The IVEs will do the bulk of the killing. You can get all that with attack odds, not assault.

In the Kursk era, take a platoon of IV Gs (late) to a company of motorized Pz Gdrs, and again round out with 81mm foot or tracked, and FO. One AA gun and a halftrack (251/1) or two to help move it and the mortars around if need by would be OK additions. Or one platoon of armored Pz Gdrs, to get several 'tracks and another infantry platoon. You can afford one of those teams for 1200-1250, so you could have 2 of them at the level you were discussing.

10-12 Pz IVs will do a lot more than stray armored cars and such. They will overload enemy AT defenses, and toss so much HE that the enemy will run out of men before they run out of ammo.

[manchildstein (ii)]

Originally posted by JasonC:

Way too many vehicle types. Too many slow foot HMGs. Too much thin armor.

Just take 12 Pz IV Es (3 platoons), and 2 companies of motorized Panzergrenadiers. Add a 105mm FO and a couple of 81mm mortars - or an 81mm mortar halftrack (251/2) - to help deal with guns. You don't need all the other assorted dribs and drabs. The IVEs will do the bulk of the killing. You can get all that with attack odds, not assault.

10-12 Pz IVs will do a lot more than stray armored cars and such. They will overload enemy AT defenses, and toss so much HE that the enemy will run out of men before they run out of ammo.

12 PZ IVE in summer '41 with no other AFVs around... that just seems 'gamey'.... i mean it's an impressive force, but it requires some suspension of disbelief...

...the average PZ IV co had 2 platoon PZ IV with a platoon of light tanks attached... the IV E was not the most common type in say, jul '41...

so i was trying to inject a bit of realism instead of optimizing the points spent...

and the armored cars.. they go along with the recon battalion...

admittedly the armored cars and light tanks are weak vehicles, but they sure make the battle more interesting, especially if the russian player agrees beforehand to bring mostly bt and t-26 types....

and i think you do need assault odds in '41... i've had a lot of games in that situation where the russian has won handily... in games involving some of the best players you could meet on the cmhq chat...

[JasonC]

"12 PZ IVE in summer '41 with no other AFVs around... that just seems 'gamey'"

No. They did not frantically mix types like CM players do, not down at the platoon and individual vehicle level. They used tanks in company strength, tactically. One kind of tank, a full company of them in the same spot. It was the number they found necessary to produce any real tactical effect.

And no, IV companies did not have light tanks. They had 3 platoons of IVs, nothing else. Single platoons of the other, lighter mediums were frequently Pz IIs, yes. But not the IVs, those were generally uniform.

Would they have a full company of IVs everywhere? No. Often it would be IIIs with a few IIs, or a full company Pz 38s. But when they had them they would have enough, and not have mixed types, or lots of extraneous other vehicles.

As for odds and 1941, in my experience the only unbalancing items are the KVs - if taken at all - and to a lesser extent the T-34s, if taken exclusively. (Rather than just 1-3, to lots of T-26s or BTs. Also the early ones aren't as hard as the late fall, improve turret varieties). Otherwise the Germans are fine.

When those are present, the Germans would often be defending not attacking, would know beforehand and so have heavy on map guns (88s, 105s), and frequently would have odds as well. In CM practice, the best form of balance for 1941 is just to ban KVs and limit the Russians to combined arms force type.

In antitank terms, incidentally, the IIIHs are better than the IVEs. Particularly against the T-34, where the 50L42 can get through the turret front at medium range, while the 75L24 is marginal even at point blank. The IVEs are good at smacking infantry around, though.

[manchildstein (ii)]

well according to some printouts i have from another thread... it went like this... in practice, the panzer iv company almost always had only 2 platoons, due to shortages of such... but i'm getting ahead of myself...

the information on the one hand states that the pz IV company had 2 x pz IV platoon and a platoon of light, but in another spot it says, 3 x pz IV platoon, no light.

that part though about the shortages and the being reduced to 2 platoons per company... that comes later in the posting i saved... would seem to apply to all pz IV companies, with or without lights...

as far as the lights, you may be right there, because regardless of how the medium company of the battalion had originally been constructed, according to the info here, the lights were in any even quickly consigned to battalion and regimental level...

so you may have a point on the lights... also, it appears panzer IV C was maybe less common than even E... so with that in mind i would go with a platoon of D and a platoon of E, and feel free to take or leave any lights...

i have no problem with mixing in light vehicles... i know this thread is about panzer IVs, and maybe this is a tangent, but being able to get the light AFVs forward and firing on enemy positions... it seems like an 'achievement' in this game... and i consider it a part of the overall battle plan, which has the pz IVs committed to overwatch ...

sometimes, and armored car or light tank will surge far forward, unharmed... this can also relate to the pzIV; as getting these light AFVs far forward theoretically gives the pz IVs more room to operate...

now there can be problems with, for instance defensive gunners not opening up until the 'real deal' gets in their sites, but i suppose by now more than anything else we're discussing; more than anything else stylistic differences in our manners of play ....

[JasonC]

I consider the practice of leading with light armor at the sub company level - at great risk to the vehicles - unsound, and also not very historical. A few Pz IIs OK (they have moderately thick fronts which helps - se below). Recon by death as a standard practice, with as little as 8mm of armor on armored cars or halftracks, no.

It is just a mistake, based on an entirely verbal misunderstanding, due to the word "recon" occurring in two different contexts and two different scales.

The leading vehicles should be armored enough that the only thing that can kill them is a dedicated AT asset, large enough to be fully located at long range as soon as it opens fire.

The recon-overwatch effect only works if fired implies seen implies engaged and destroyed. If an ATR or a 25mm AA gun can do it, that sequence is broken at the very start.

Tank infantry teams work much better than heavy - light vehicle teams. The infantry recovers from punishment better, goes through terrain without leaving unspotted enemies, and adds considerable firepower if the defenders do not open up soon enough to keep them from closing.

In contrast, light vehicles are little threat. The defender can simply ignore them and stay hidden if he doesn't like the set up. They don't rally when hit. Scouting with light armor at the CM tactical scale is a stupid AI trick.

Light armor can be useful tactically. But the time to use it is after heavy armor has already smashed the enemy AT grid. Before then it can also separate enemy infantry into discrete covered areas by putting MG fire lanes between them. Without going far forward themselves.

As for Ds and Es, both would be about equally common early in the campaign, with Es and F1s dominating by late in the year or early in 1942. Cs were quite rare, not many having been made and those that did not all surviving France. They were not mixed at the sub company level, or even the division level. If they had Es they'd have Es, if they had Ds they'd have Ds.

[manchildstein (ii)]

i'm talking about recon with light vehicles and attempting to keep them alive... not intentionally sending them out to die...

for instance, with dual mgs the pz 1 puts out a lot of mg firepower... it can suppress the first position it finds... i've had games against good opponents where pz 1s have gone ahead and survived, and stuck around to be fighting over the flags at the end...

it's kind of a matter of getting a feel for a situation, and whether you think you can plunge that light armor ahead... without undue risk...

an actual example of light armor with panzer IVs backing it up would be an assault i defended against.. it had hordes of pz I, pz II, pz II flame, and Somua... they drove in first, identified and engaged positions, and the panzer IVs came after, always hovering back in overwatch, chucking HE... the whole thing was backed by a single company of armored infantry.. it gave me renewed respect for the spw 251/1 when employed in numbers...

if you think running light armor ahead is not a valid practice in cm; well that's matter of taste as far as i'm concerned... like anything else.. it can succeed or it can fail.. a lot of it has to do with the defender's setup....

[JasonC]

"hordes of pz I, pz II, pz II flame, and Somua... they drove in first, identified and engaged positions, and the panzer IVs came after"

See, that's just the thing. They'd just never do that. This grab bag mentality of wild assortments of vehicles in the same small fight just doesn't have anything to do with the real historical methods.

If you or your opponents enjoy that sort of thing, that's your affair. For both game effectiveness as well as history, I recommend trying a more uniform tank mix - more mediums, all one kind, less mixing.

[Abteilung]

WRT the exact composition of a Mittler PanzerKompanie, it depends upon the date. There were many re-organizations which directly affected the TO&E.

A look through PanzerTruppen Vol I (Jentz) reveals both JasonC and manchschildstein (ii) to be correct. It just depends upon which period/unit they are referencing.

For instance, many units did not recieve Pz.Kpfw.III in their le.kompanie, rather they recieved Pz.Kpfw.35(t) and Pz.Kpfw.38(t) as logistics demanded. Some units did recieve the Pz.III, however not enough for a full complement, so platoons of three were not uncommon for that vehicle during some time periods.

If the Sd.Kfz.141/1 (Pz.Kpfw.III.Ausf.J - M) is available, I tend to mix those with the short Pz.Kpfw.IV (Ausf.C - F.1) to provide the much-needed increase in high explosive content and most importantly, smoke. This would go against the TO&E if one were to represent an entire panzer kompanie true to history, however, I tend to find battles containing large quantites of armor to be far too unbalanced for my tastes unless one engorges the poor engine with thousands of infantry and the rest of the combined arms/blitzkrieg toolbox.

[JasonC]

1941 Era, 1000 point attack = 1500 point force

8 Pz IV E

Panzer Rifle company

Plus 4th platoon

105mm FO

1500 point attack = 2250 point force

12 Pz IV E

2 Panzer Rifle company

2 81mm on map

1 105mm FO

1943 Kursk Era 1000 point attack = 1500 point force

6 Pz IV H

Motorized Pz Grd Company

Plus 4th platoon

105mm Radio FO

Sharpshooter (or 2 vet LMG)

1250 point attack = 1875 point force

8 Pz IV H

Mot Pz Gdr Company

4th Platoon

3 81mm on map

1 SPW 251/1 HT (to move mortars)

105mm FO (option -1x81mm for radio not phone)

1500 point attack = 2250 point force

10 Pz IV H

Mot Pz Gdr Company

Armored Pz Gdr Platoon

+1=4 SPW 251/1

2 81mm on map

105mm Radio FO

It is not complicated. You don't need a gazillion points worth of other bells and whistles, and you don't need an infantry battalion.

The ratio of tanks to infantry platoons should be around 2:1. Tanks do most of the killing, they are not just support weapons for a mostly infantry attack. You need a few infantry heavy weapons, some mortars to guns and such, some indirect HE.

Try it before you dismiss it. I think you will find the number and quality of the tank-infantry teams is the most important thing.

Tactically, a pair of Pz IVs works with an infantry platoon. Two of those with a small heavy weapons group behind (HQ, 2xHMG, FO or mortar) can attack quite well.

Single platoon positions can't stand up to that, and multiple ones can't coordinate if there are too many live Pz IVs cutting them off from each other.

[Abteilung]

I like your suggestions JasonC. One exception is my total lack of confidence in the anti-armor capability of the L/24 piece at ranges near and over 500m. That includes the AP, HL (not modelled, iirc), HL/A, HL/B, and HL/C rounds. Accuracy is just too low considering the low overall complement of those rounds.

[JasonC]

Anti armor ability against what? If he has KVs it won't matter what you have. If he has T-26s and BTs, or just towed guns, they will do fine. Would Pz 38s or Pz IIIs drill them faster? Maybe, but who cares? That many IV Es will clobber them, while their own 45mm shots are bouncing off. The only case to worry about is the T-34, and the only tank that will do appreciably better is the Pz III with 50L42 (particularly the Hs). Close enough the IVs will kill them just as easily as the IIIs. Far away the IIIs need sticky front turret hits to get partial pens - hardly a great matchup.

[manchildstein (ii)]

Originally posted by JasonC:

"hordes of pz I, pz II, pz II flame, and Somua... they drove in first, identified and engaged positions, and the panzer IVs came after"

See, that's just the thing. They'd just never do that. This grab bag mentality of wild assortments of vehicles in the same small fight just doesn't have anything to do with the real historical methods.

If you or your opponents enjoy that sort of thing, that's your affair. For both game effectiveness as well as history, I recommend trying a more uniform tank mix - more mediums, all one kind, less mixing.

well, i thought the somuas were a bit gamey but wouldn't have thought it abnormal if all of the light tanks had been straight pz 1s and 2s (no pz 2 flames, no somuas).. that could have represented a group of them being doled out from battalion or regiment..

since it appears that 'irl' they were soon taken out of the front line medium and light companies and attached higher up...

but the somuas... i have info they only served in an independent battalion in finland... still, i think pz 1 / 2 tanks would have had generally the same effect...

thing with the somua is.. in rarity off situations... it's best 50-point tank there is...

but that definitely had me rolling my eyes...

anyway.. i've found light armor to be quite useful.. and my own purchases are usually trying to model something i consider to be historical...

interestingly, and more back on topic... i was doing an assault today.. 1500 point.. oct '41... in the game i've got 2 platoon pz IV E and a platoon of sig33b... and a battalion of the 4-squad infantry type... everything is progressing well.. the infantry have gone ahead..

so far i've met up with an smg ambush and one of the sig33s was right on it... the pz IVs are moving up to fire on some other id'd but currently inactive positions...

the reason i prefer a heavier mix of infantry is the ability to launch small attacks across the map.. maybe a platoon every 500 metres of width.. sneaking toward key areas... and the remaining 6 or 7 platoons massed in one area.. but 'checkerboarded' so no barrage can touch more than a single platoon, if even that....

i like to starch up the platoons with 2 x tank hunter apiece... then sweep forward and clear the way for my armored support.. if i meet something heavy.. hopefully my tank hunters are nearby up front while the armor engages the threat from further back... with infantry swarming all around, it's that much harder for the opponent's heavy armor to concentrate on my pz IVs...

[Abteilung]

Originally posted by JasonC:

Anti armor ability against what?

I agree with you 100%, The lighter armor can be dealt with by even a Pz.II. Although my first choice of light tanks (Axis) is the 38(t)Ausf.E. That little czech wreck is superb vehicle, imo. No probs with taking out light tanks, aside from accuracy beyond 500m (Pz.IV). I should have been more specific and simply mentioned the T-34, as it tends to be my favorite opponent when playing Axis, as well as my first choice of combat vehicle while playing Soviet.