Difference between recon and normal infantry

[Gungalley]

whats the diffreence? I heard that recon has more men. WHat else? thanks

[flamingknives]

Depends whose recon units you're talking about.

German recon units have fewer men per squad than regular infantry, and were often mounted on motorcycles (units with an (MC) suffix) Of course motorcycles aren't modelled in game though.

Soviet recon has more men than some units, less than other.

There aren't any non-organisational differences, if that's what you mean. Recon units aren't better at sneaking or spotting than regular infantry.

[ October 31, 2003, 08:37 AM: Message edited by: flamingknives ]

[Michael Emrys]

Seems I recall Soviet recon squads don't have LMGs.

Michael

[flamingknives]

Recon C doesn't.

Recon A and Scout squads do.

[Redwolf]

The Germaninskies always have less men in the recon troops, but they are always fully armed (and usually backed up by substantial weapons).

The Russians had both small scout squads but on the other hand they had some big squads. I assume the latter are for long-range duty and will typically be split up into teams once in their operations area. The Russians were doing a lot more long-range infiltration work than the Germans.

The German infantry divisions later replaced their reconnaissance battalions with Fusiliers which were multi-purpose recon and local reserve/modile/.counterattack troops.

[Grisha]

It helps to understand how recon troops were used by each side. German recon troops were used by aggressively fighting for intelligence, always pushing forward and probing via reconnaissance in force. Hence, German reconnaissance troops are usually very well armed and mobile. In contrast, Soviet troops were largely used in a more passive manner, gathering intelligence by concealed observation. Divisional recon troops were quite skilled at probing deep into the German tactical, and even operational, rear to discern enemy dispositions and activity. Hence, Soviet recon troops were usually very lightly armed and on foot or horse. The one exception is with tank or mech corps recon, which was more on the German model.

Hence, in most cases it would a case of 'wasting' resources to use Soviet recon in actual frontline fighting, and Soviet field regulation actually forbid such use of recon forces by 1942.

[JasonC]

To amplify Grisha's point, the Russian infantry way of recon was largely by night infiltration movement. They moved units of any size from a squad sized patrol to an entire battalion into the enemy defended zone while completely avoiding contact, until well in. The ideal was for the first the Germans learned of it to be when they found themselves cut off at dawn by men already behind them. Or better still, when the Germans got shelled at dawn and didn't even know the guys that called the fire were already behind them, and waiting for them if they withdrew. German AARs often complain about how good they got at this, from mid war on.

It was a technique made possible in part by limited German manpower for the amount of frontage, and their preference for strongpoint defenses, which were defended in between only by obstacles and fire. That is, the Germans figured if they had HMGs overwatching the area, and mortars ready to fire, and a field phone to the 105s back at division, and the whole front was strung with wire - that they could hold just a few well entrenched spots, and in case of an intrusion reach out and touch something. This was great in theory. In bright daylight in clear weather (against just infantry, mind) it worked perfectly. But make it a rainy night...

[Gungalley]

Why then are soviet recon units in the game? And how should htey be used? (both sides)

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Gungalley:

Why then are soviet recon units in the game? And how should htey be used? (both sides)

Here's an idea. You could design an operation, the first battle of which is at night. Design the German defense along the lines of what Jason has described and try to infiltrate a recon platoon or two behind them so that the next battle (at dawn) opens with them in position. Have them take a radio FO or two along to call in the arty after the German positions have been identified. Then attack with a battalion of standard troops while the recce guys do their thing, which is to keep their heads down except for setting up ambushes for broken Germans running for the rear.

Michael

[Gungalley]

So is using recon only troops for assault gamey?

[Redwolf]

That depends on the kind of recon infantry you are talking about. All

what I say here is very specific for CM and may not apply to real

life.

The typical recon infantry in my book is a squad which is low on

manpower (typically 8 men) but has at least one SMG and one LMG.

Such a platoon has the advantage to offer good suppressive firepower at

a low price. The disadvantage is that is becomes useless quickly on

losses. It is also very bad to get into hand-to-hand fighting as

their comparably good armament is useless and they lose because of low

manpower.

Another advantage of such units is that you can get heavy weapons at

good discounts. Recon infantry has heavy weapons in lower formations

and that means CM gets them into the discounted formations.

So you use these platoons in situations where you expect your squad to

stay away from the enemy and where you expect that you can pound him

with heavy weapons once you find them. You don't engage superior

infantry with them.

Another advantage is that a 4-man team of these squads is very cheap

on victory points if you lose it. If potentially suicidal

reconnaissance cannot be avoided do it with as few men as possible.

The Soviets have the 7-man scout squads with one LMG which would be

used as the German recon infantry. These are not available at all

times and come with a lot of headquarters in CM.

%%

On the other side of the spectrum are the 11-12 men Soviet recon

types. If they have an LMG they are just oversized normal squads with

extra staying power.

You use oversized squads for duty which requires several successive

engagements. If you want a unit to function after more than one or

two moderate clashes then you use a squad with more men. This is what

the Sturmgruppe is about as well. You don't use extra-men squads when

you expect single heavy firefights. The extra manpower will just be

lost and the unit will not recover from suppression soon enough to be

of further use in that fight. You use extra-manpower squads if they

are going through several light fights and the remaining men can

recover between them (if you want to human-wave somebody's single

defensive position smaller squads are more efficient).

Then you have 11-12 men squads without LMG. CM also doesn't allow you

to split oversize squads into 3 teams, which would be more realistic.

But they can be put to good use again targets which you wan to bring

under long-term suppressive fire. They have a lot of ammo. Using them

to hold SMG squads at arms range will be fun.

%%

If you poke around the Soviet OOB you can also find units with a lot

of headquarters, very useful when you want more headquarters

elsewhere.

There is also the brigade recon company in the mech OOB where you can

get two headquarters, 3 12-men LMG squads and 10 M3 scout cars for 399

points. While armored recon is usually not suitable for CM battles,

the scout cars can tow or carry heavy weapons up to a ZiS-3 or a Maxim

(but unfortunately not the 82mm mortars ). But beware of knockout

points for the scout cars. They die quickly and cost undiscounted

knockout points plus whatever crew casualties you take.

%%

For Axis also check out Fusiliers. Fusiliers replaced Aufklaerungs

battalions in the German infantry divisions, they are a kind of

multi-purpose infantry type, meant for reconnaissance but also for

local reserves. They are very similar to recon infantry, except they

have more staying power and are well armed. As in reality, they can

be useful for reserves when you want to save some points on your

reserves.

%%

Unfortunately CM doesn't model an spotting bonus to either recon type

infantry or to smaller unit markers. Only the sharpshooter is more

difficult to spot.

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by Gungalley:

So is using recon only troops for assault gamey?

I think you mix up "gamey" and "unrealistic".

"Gamey" means getting an unrealistic advatage out of beinding the game engine to get you favourable combat results, exploiting limitations of the combat modeling.

That is only very mildly the case, of you attack with recon troops the game engine will punish you in a mostly realistic manner. Less than 10 men squads lose combat power very quickly when they get hit.

If you manage to bring them in without getting hit you have a realistic use for recon infantry. If you only use them to locate and maybe pin targets for heavy weapons you play them realistically.

As for "realistic", commanders tried very hard to keep recon units out of heavy fighting, but it certainly happend. In particular, a defending force at the edge of getting overwhelmed will usually have to exploit every opportunity for a juicy counterattack. The unit most likely to be available after all the regular reserves are used up are the recon battalions, so there you go. This is IMHO the primary reasons why the Germans formalized that procedure for the lower quality divisions by exchanging recon battalions for Fusilier battalions.

[ November 02, 2003, 10:47 AM: Message edited by: redwolf ]

[JasonC]

Russian recon units still got into fights, that just wasn't what they were trying to do. If a company was infiltrating at night and a German patrol found them, they didn't exchange greetings and continue on their merry way. If a company had infiltrated and the Germans discovered them inside their defended zone, the Germans were likely to send a counterattack to clean them out.

As for their use in CM, the C type have no LMGs, just large squads with mostly rifles. They get about half the firepower of other infantry types in close, while they have about normal FP at range (the many rifles making up for the missing LMG) and high ammo. If you try to fight with them in close they will generally perform poorly. In open steppe they can do OK firing by full platoons at range. But it helps to suppliment them with infantry heavy weapons, to pin or break point targets in cover - mortars, snipers, on defense even guns.

They were deliberately traveling light. If you want to see the point in that send fast teams with them - snipers, ATRs, at the slowest 50mm mortars and DP LMGs (or SG43 MMGs if rariety allows). You can also suppliment them with pioneers, who are similarly armed but also clear mines and have demo charges if anyone gets too close, or to take out armor. Also, a split recon half squad is not a lot to risk finding something out.

The Recon A type are stronger in close, with large squads and 1 LMG plus 3 SMGs per squad. Realistically those come in small numbers - one experienced platoon would be typical in a CM scale fight, supplimenting other types. They are more flexible, and can fight. A realistic use for them is as a "point" platoon for a regular infantry attack, to find a path into the enemy defense.

As for the German recon types, the mobile division guys are different from the infantry Fusilier guys.

The mobile types are very heavily armed but with small squads and limited ammo. They can hit hard but have quite limited "wind". A few losses or a few minutes of firefight and they are pretty well spent. Both LMGs go with one team if you split them, which makes a strong MG nest. The other half is OK for scouting (in the sense of little risked) but too weak to do much else.

They can make a good "OP" line, listening for the enemy and falling back after a brief ambush. But they don't really have the "wind" to be your main infantry type, particularly when attacking. If they are all you have you'd better plan on AFVs doing a lot of the work, saving ammo by using shortened arcs, and only unleashing the infantry "safeties" at the crisis of the battle.

The Fusiliers on the other hand are a quite flexible infantry type, with some pure SMG, some LMG-rifle, and some mostly SMG squad types. You can adapt them to any terrain, even with a small overall force. I find this makes them useful in small battles, under 1000 points, and in common mixed terrain like moderate trees or villages. For large battles you can often get the same general effect by mixing formation types instead.