Calling all master minds for strategy suggestions

[cyborg]

I really need some help. A good friend and I, play CMBB with some intensity. Whoever wins the best out of 5 game gets to display an expensive sword at their house until the other person win the next best out of 5 games. In essence, this guy is better than me. This next scenario is a difficult one for me. I’m call all master mind to give me suggestions on playing this scenario. I having a difficult time trying to set up this scenario. PLEASE HELP!

You can review the scenario in here:

http://ns9.super-hosts.com/~dragonlair.net/combatmission/CMBBscenarioreview03.php?UniqueID=66&Name=Lake+Ladoga

Scenario: LAKE LADOGA

I am: Allied (Soviet Regular)

My Friend: Axis (Finnish)

My Forces are not FIT they are WEAKENED

The forces should be balanced. If you wish check out the map on the link provided up above. PLEASE DONT TELL ME WHAT HE HAS!!!!!!

We made an agreement not to play the scenaro before we play it. I need a good plan and tactical suggestions. This is a very opened. I have no clue how to set this one up for a sure win. Thanks in advance.

[Steiner14]

Cyborg,

isn't that an original scenario from the CD?

I played it from Axis side, but IIRC the terrain was that open despite bad LOS due to snow or fog, that it didn't really allow for special tactical surprises.

Here are my 2 cent:

key here is, hitting with a massive hammer instead of surgical tactics. Combined with flexible use of your armored vehicles. After using the hammer, you can hide it again (depends on situation). Your hammer is your armor:

Keep probing infantry in the riverbed spread and mass your armor behind it, i'd say. Probe the flanks of your armor task-force with 2 light vehicles or inf, that he can't suddenly jump out of the fog.

IIRC, the safest way to move armor forward was in the riverbed.

Whenever an enemy tank appears to your probing inf, simply blow it away by moving all the armor you have into LOS. It's very likely, that the first vehicle you'll see will not be one of his good ones. His better ones will be somewhere behind.

Therefore timing of your tanks to appear simultaneously in LOS is critical and don't forget to use vehicle-cover arcs, so that your tanks are ignoring his infantry, he will very likely use for probing, too.

Be careful not to run initially into PAK-positions, if he has some:

infantry will have to bleed quite a lot, for decent probing.

Additionally the chances are good, that he will try do do some special tactics (in CM we tend to do something 'special', the more simple the map is, don't we?) and divide his armor or even spread it. :cool:

I'd say, it is important to use your armor very flexible but massed. Make sure, your tanks have almost all the same LOS, which is not always easy to achieve. Jump forward and hit. Afterwards, instead of sitting down and being happy about the success, reverse into fog (but narrow enough to come back fast) and wait for his answer (it will come too late, ofcourse, if he has divided his armor or is using light vehicles for probing). When his answer arrives, you should be prepared and hit again.

When you need to support your infantry with your armor, support it with massed forces only.

The time delays on your side give you a big disadvantage, if he uses flexible armor tactics, too.

But: the majority of the players do not use tanks in a flexible way: they hit once and stand more or less still - until they become knocked out...

So i guess your chances are very good.

If i'm confusing this scenario, forget what i wrote.

[ October 18, 2003, 07:23 AM: Message edited by: Steiner14 ]

[cyborg]

Thanks Steiner 14 for replying. Yes this is the original scenario from the game. Sorry, I didnt realize that.

Excuse my ignorance but what is IIRC? Anyway, I like the advice. That what I need is a way to approach this scenario and you provided it. I think he will use probing. I like the suggestion give about the cover arc so my tanks can ignore his infantry. I alsolike your suggestion to keep your armor flexible.

I need help because my force are green and regular and they are weakened thus they will panic quickly so . I would have to have some good support to prevent them from panicking. The map is so basic that its hard to devise a plan of defense. Keep in mind, I will most likely be defending my position. I have the ability to get in place and wait, protecting the two flags.

Questions:

1. There are no riverbed. Its just a road, ice over river, and pine forest in the distance. Are we on the right scenario?

2. In defending, should I really risk1 probing maneuvers? With weakened forces, I’m risking harm to my overall force.

3. What should I do with the trucks after I disembark my troops? Perhaps I could use them to draw fire? Initially, I will have 5 trucks.

4. How should I set up my defense perimeter? One of my strategy books suggest a way to debilitate your opponent forces. The author states to have a front line fight then have them pull behind the second line of defense while the second line deliver cover fire then pull the second line behind 3st line (which was or particularly was the first line of defense). BUT I’m risking defeat using this tactic due to the green and weakened forces.

Any other suggestions will help. Again thanks and please do not divulge to me what he has in his forces. I need practical tactics and strategies. Thanks

[gautrek]

IIRC is

If I remember correctly.

This had me baffled for while.

[Lt Bull]

Hell cyborg

I recently finished this battle as Russians against a PBEM opponent a week or so ago so I am very well informed of what to expect.

However, I think by telling us the actual scenario name, you have actually made it very difficult for anyone who is familiar with the scenario to give you advice without the risk of comprimising the "double blind" agreement you had with your opponent.

As much as I would like to discuss tactics with you, I feel that I could not do so without spoiling things for you and your opponent. However, I would happily discuss things with you AFTER the scenario is finished.

Lt Bull

[JasonC]

I have not played the scenario, though I have now looked at the set up from the Russian side. I can give pointers without any special knowledge. Incidentally, I don't think Steiner had the right scenario from his recommendations.

The first thing to notice is that visibility is 250m because of the falling snow. That is far enough that infantry advances in the open should be hard, but short enough that the battlefield is not one united firefight and infantry rather than long range support weapons are in the driver's seat.

The second is the big block of pines. It would clearly be suicide to get into any firefight against men inside those pines while exposed out on the road yourself. There are two ways to deal with that. You can gamble that no one is there yet and send units of your own to the pines, hoping to hold them and thereby the road.

Or you can avoid them, and stay more than 250m away from them, breaking LOS by distance in the falling snow. That means staying on the far side of the road, with LOS to the road area yourself, but not all the way to the pines. If he gets into the pines, that will leave a sort of no man's land on the side of the road closest to the pines, where either side can hit people.

The first is quite risky. Your men are low morale, no leaders have morale bonuses, and they are weakened. They'd have to cross open snow approaching pine cover, with LOS lines available to hundreds of yard behind them by the time they near the woods. If anybody is there, whoever you send would probably die.

This does not rule it out, but does mean only a small patrol can go that way initially. With weakened men in snow, it will be quite a while before you know whether the pines are clear, and longer still before you could get anyone there if they are. You have one initial platoon leader with double stealth bonus, nothing else. He'd be the guy to send, turning over some of his men (e.g. the conscripts, one or both of the greens optional) to the company HQ. If you go at all. If it fails you weaken your main force by whatever you choose to send.

The way to deal with weakened state in snow, incidentally, is to use "move" for essentially all movements. For absolutely critical, very short movements under enemy fire, you can use "advance", expecting to be reduced to "tired" in one turn. Rest afterward.

Because of the vulnerability of "move" with low morale men in the open, you want all other possible movements to take place out of LOS. The way to make that possible is to have reserves deep enough behind your front line that enemy can't see all the way to them, without approaching your own front lines in the open and getting pinned. So you want a front line of stationary guys ready to fire, able to pin anyone 100-150m away. Then 110-160m farther back, you can move safely. Before you get the screen in place, everything is risky, obviously.

In heavy snow, the trucks should not leave the road. They will bog easily and will be no faster than men on foot. Along the road they can usefully shuttle men, if that portion of the road isn't under enemy fire. You have reinforcements coming according to the briefing (and this is a Rune scenario, so you can expect an "endless fight" with either side refreshing with new forces). You will probably want the trucks, alive, to help move them.

In addition, the trucks are valuable in victory terms. Don't just go get them killed. If the road is not safe from fire anywhere, move them to a safe side even if it means putting them completely out of the battle. Better to not have the use of them, than that plus the Finns getting VPs for them.

You have 4 DP LMGs and 3 of their crews aren't weakened. 2 are also regular quality. These are good observation posts. Their firepower is limited, and they get only medium speed. But everyone has to walk, using "move", in this snow anyway. I'd string these out in the open ground area (rather than ice) on the side of the road, getting stationary as soon as possible at each successive position. You want to use their whole 250m LOS range (wood-ward), and you want 2 successive LMGs to overlap their sighting footprints.

That probably means the side of the road farthest from the pines, one every 120m. Drop the weakened one first. I'd use the regulars in the middle positions. Risk the green fit one on the farthest position; he is either more likely to get hit or to not get shots, depending on whether there are Finns by the far flag early.

One of your platoon commanders has a +2 command rating. That would let him command a widely spaced platoon. But it also means his men have very low command delay, which is probably even more useful. I'd use him for the reserve. He has a conscript squad that doesn't much fit that role - I'd give those to the company HQ. The rest of these guys should play "linebacker" once your defense is set up, using the "out of LOS behind the screen" idea explained earlier.

If you don't send the woods patrol you have 3 other platoons counting the company HQ group. If you do send it you have 2. One is your best platoon, with +1 command and combat, 2 regular and 2 green squads. You want them in the center of your line. The two regular LMGs may be in command distance of this HQ.

Give the company HQ low quality men and put them farther from the pines - I'd settle for before the first flag, thus on the right if facing the pines. The idea is reinforcements will tie in with them. In the meantime they provide some flank cover and additional firepower into the center if anyone gets close enough. Get them motionless soon - they can even hide, with the HQ only "up" and looking, using a covered arc to hold fire. (Conscripts don't get arcs).

If you don't send the pines patrol, use that platoon to go to the far flag instead. Otherwise it is just going to be the tankette and an LMG going to the end of the road. Keep the tankette on the road to avoid bogging, at least initially. It is vulnerable to ATRs and even HMGs, so do not assume it is bulletproof. Once in combat, you want it to get LOS only to the foremost spotted infantry unit, to hose with its MG.

Later you will get 2 T-26s. Their limited speed will also confine them to the road. They are also ATR vulnerable, but are at least MG resistent and have a gun as well as MGs. Even light armor can be powerful in open ground areas, because MG firepower will stop infantry movement and they can't be suppressed themselves. On *no account* should you move them close to the pines.

Do you know where the Finns will come from? No. But if they come from anywhere except the pines you don't have that much to worry about. Men on the far side of the road but near the center of the map will cover all the open approaches to the center flag from all directions.

Rune's play balance being what it is, you can probably expect the Finns to own the farthest flag, if not immediately then soon. This means holding the center and getting even losses will be a draw, while to win you need either to beat the Finns in the firefight or clear the far flag (to "reopen" the road).

First control the center flag by fire as described above. That should put the draw "in hand" as it were. After the rest of your forces arrive you may have to think offensively, about reaching the far flag.

Your reinforcements include 2 HMGs. Do not try to move them by foot over the snow for any distance. Way too slow. Instead drop them by truck or jeep someplace in the open ground just beside the road. Use the full LOS distance, and separate the HMG positions to cover more ground. They can hit hard enough to pin anything in the open at 250m, and keep it up indefinitely, ammo wise. Do not just get them killed. Do not advance them into LOS of known enemy positions. Even if all they do is act defensively, against anyone who advances into LOS of your guys, that is useful.

If you have to attack toward the far flag, over open snow (not fun in general) do it by first establishing a screen at the edge of LOS of Finns in that area. "Move" up your attacking infantry (probably the fresher reinforcement company, not the initial guys) behind that screen, to 260m, and rest them. Bring both T-26s.

Then use short "advance" orders - 40m or so - to get inside LOS. Don't send the tanks first. You need infantry to have LOS in order to suppress any ATRs etc before that. Take the pain and rally men back outside of LOS.

Don't push too hard or try to overrun the defenders - your men will just come apart. Just sit and shoot back unless in good shape (alerted or OK, tiring or better fatigue), in which case advance that unit another 40m. If it is the closest, sit and shoot. The guys farther back should rest and rally a bit and get their turn to creep in soon enough.

When you've got infantry to 100-150m away, thus able to spot ATRs if any open up, send forward both tanks. Hose anything they can see. Only advance again with the infantry after the tanks have suppressed everything.

Hopefully you will only have to do that "attack in the open" stuff after you've beaten the main Finnish force, defending in the center. Your MGs and the remnants of your initial force - and the tankette if alive - can hold the center.

Other key tactical points to remember - open to open firefights are generally won by the stationary party. But with 250m LOS limits, it is also possible to get "many on few" match ups by getting an "arc" of men within 250m of only 1-2 enemy positions, while the rest are still too far to see.

So sitting completely still can get you killed, too. If you must move, back is usually safer than forward - it brings more friendlies into the firefight instead of more enemy. A "linebacker" reserve can shift laterally using "move", too far for LOS, and then make a short "advance" forward to get LOS.

[ October 20, 2003, 12:38 PM: Message edited by: JasonC ]

[mike_the_wino]

cyborg you are Russians and your buddy is playing Uber-Finns?

You are fooked.

Give him the damn sword and be done with it.

[CombinedArms]

I would have to agree with m-t-w. Maybe your opponent isn't a better player. Maybe he's just better at chosing the right side of the scenario to play.

[cyborg]

JasonC,

I just want to say, “thank you!” You are awesome to deliver a wealth of valuable information. I was very please with your suggestions. It was so valuable to me that I print it out and highlighted very important information. There were several information that I forgot, did not realize, and neglected to consider.

I think, I will NOT use a potral squad but I will use a good defense plan. I really like your suggestion on movement of people and having support in the rear. This is what I wanted--tactics and suggestions. If I was to thank you for everything then this will be a very long reply so I hope the “thank for everything” is sufficient.

I do have a question. You wrote this: “Get them motionless soon - they can even hide, with the HQ only "up" and looking, using a covered arc to hold fire.” If I have the Greens hidden with cover ace applied and they are located about 70m in front of the HQ, what is the reason why I want to have HQ in up position? Do the HQ provide better command or perhaps better LOS (in a wide arc) benefiting his Greens? I know in hidden mode their view is reduced and the wide angle view is more narrowed.

Once again you provide me with valuable information. I do greatly appreciate it. I have know I deal where he coming from. With some Intel deception, I may have got him (my opponent) thinking that I only protecting the side that has the pine trees. Thank JasonC.

To Mike_the_wino,

I will never give him the sword. I will only reward him the sword with sweat and blood stains. :mad: