Meeting Engagements vs Soviet SMG teams

[RAM]

Heya there!!!

Well, first of all thanks to Battlefront for solving the issue with the SIS cards, I own a laptop with a SIS650 integrated video card and couldn't play CMBB or CMAK on it unless at my computer at home...

Ok, to the issue. I've recently started to play online games, CMBB and CMAK. Most of them are QBs in ME mode. I play German. I don't like the "rush to the flag" approach, never have, and won't like to be forced to take it in my battles.

What I usually do is to come near the flag I've chosen to take, plot some smoke to cover the approach , shell the place up for a couple of minutes, and then come in to fight with my infantry.

For instance, say that the VF is in a forest. There's a little problem here. By 1942 Russian infantry, having rushed to the objective is already there and each squad they have got (usually SMG squads) have roughly FOUR TIMES the firepower of each of my squads at 50 m. By 1944 with the StG44 the things level a bit but still is an inferno. Each time I try this thing I get the smoke, I get the barrage on the forest, but when I come in my troops get pinned with the first burst...and from then onwards it's pure massacre.

I've tried to do the attack overpowering the enemy with numbers, however smoke screens can cover one approach from the front and one of the sides, but rarely from them all...my opponents know what they are doing and usually have far away MGs covering the aproaches to the victory flags so usually one of the platoons gets pinned by fire coming from very far.

Then, my artillery barrages seem to do naught, other than causing some 10 casualties on a whole platoon into a forest zone of 50x50m aprox. Sure, they get supressed but if they have got morale command bonus (and as my opponent knows what he's doing, he usually gets morale booster HQs into the objective forests) that won't last for long.

I use 75mm cannon fire for the smoke screens (the 25 ammo one), and 81mm mortars for the forest pounding (6 tubes,150 ammo version). Is a good combination for this kind of attack?.

How do I make it to avoid getting my infantry supressed on the first burst?...this has gone to the extreme to see a crack infantry squad pinned on the first burst, panic on the second, and routed in the third...and that into a forest! (supposedly the trees gives you cover...)

Massed assault is hard to do because crossfire from spots uncovered by smoke. It's very hard to overcome, usually the first notice I have that the approach is covered is when my troops get the burst.

Also, which are the good commands for this kind of assault?...I use "Fast" to come to the verge of the forest (and stay as little as I can on the open), and then Advance or move to contact when into the forest.

Merry Christmas to everyone and thanks for any incoming tips! Man, do I really need them...I refuse to go through the "rush" approach, but the way I'm doing it I lost 77-23 last time and I'm not getting any better...

[TigerTiger]

I will try some assaults and see which German infantry type is best suited to handle the SMG squads. And also what tactics work best.

[l.cassidy]

Hi Ram!

Just a couple of things that come to mind: I think that 81mm mortars are a little bit too light for the pounding thing. Of course treebursts do enhance the effects to some extent, but I think 105mm arty has a better suppression/killing power.

With enough money, I'd go for a 81mm mortars FO for the smoke (with short delays and high ammo count you can deploy a coupla smoke screens to cover more than one approach) and I'd let the 105mm FO do the hammering.

As a side note, direct HE fire to the entry area do help keeping the enemy's heads down: inf guns, tanks (short 75mm PZIV e.g.) and StuGs/StuHs are great for this.

About the infantry assault, I think that the "fast" order is not the best for crossing the open area: with the "advance" one, your man can withstand more enemy fire and can even stop and return some fire, too.

Last, but not least, the assault should begin WHILE the music is on, I mean when the arty barrage and/or HE area fire is still coming down. Sure some "shorts" will rattle your men allright, but while the enemy is still busy keeping his butt in cover, they won't receive too much fire from the defenders.

My 2 (euro)cents...I'm sure better players than me can give you more (and more sound) advice.

Cheers and Merry Xmas!

Cassidy

[Falcon988]

As the poster above me said, the best use of artillery is in coordination with an infantry attack. Recently I was attacking a hill in a PBEM game and brought down four 139mm rockets (using a target reference point on the target - very useful those things) on the Germans. The blasts caused two friendly casualties but it pinned Jerry down and the arty was -immediately- followed up by an infantry attack. Ended up taking the hill easily after that.

Let's face it. Artillery against dug in troops is practically useless - unless you follow it up with infantry while the enemy still have their heads down. You may take friendly casualties, but ultimately your losses will be -much- less than they would be if you tried a regular ol' frontal attack.

[TigerTiger]

Without artillery, without smoke, without any support fire like mortars, I ran test with Germany's 9 types of Infantry platoons against a Guards SMG platoon in woods. Whole map was in woods.

In order of being eliminated:

Panzergrenadiers

Security

Recon

Cavalry

Fusiller

Rifle

Jaegers

Mountain

The Airborne platoon actually held out against its opponent SMG squad. But not without losses.

I would say its the best bet before 1944.

Now I tried the All-SMG platoon that you get in the Volksgrenadier companies, and they kicked ass against ruskie SMG platoon. But mind you I a talking about the 9-men per squad ruskie SMG platoon. Not the 11-men per squad 4-squad per platoon that you get in the Mountain SMG platoon in 1943! God help u if u come across those...

So simply to fight SMG u platoon should have lotsa SMGs, preferably all.

[RAM]

thanks everybody for your tips!!!!

I.cassidy: Ok, I'll won't use fast again then...I'll stick to Advance...but what about Assault? is it worth it?.

The supressing direct fire is something I've used too. When I go ahead and send the assault, I open up with everything I can on area fire, even with squads not involved in the assault. It has given little benefits until now but I'll see with the different orders and the heavier artillery (will try to get the 105mm observers).

Falcon: point well taken. Until now I was starting my assault on the enemy positions as soon as the "Music"'s over...will try now attacking when there's still steel raining from the sky, and let's see what happens

TigerTiger: thanks a lot for the tests!!! I take it that the order of units you've listed is from less resistant to more resistant, isn't it?. I find it quite surprising that a PanzerGrenadier squad holds out less than a security one, but...

Anyway, the problem is that the only match for russian SMG infantry before 1944 is the airborne platoon, and that one is quite costly...

One more question, in this particular issue is quality worth more than quality? I mean, is better to have more troops of "regular" quality, or somewhat less of "Crack" level?...that is also an important point when purchasing units...

thanks a lot for the answers...and please keep any hints coming

[TigerTiger]

Order was less resistant to more resistant. All platoons were veteran.

The Panzergrenadiers primary role is anti-tank. They carry a lot of grenade bundles, fausts, etc.

When they met their SMG platoon, they weren't given a cance to throw their grenades. Got pinned, panicked, broken and eliminated in seconds.

But very little SMGs. So there defense against an Ruskie SMG platoon was lacking.

The Security platoon performed better on all three times. But anyway both types were slaughtered in under 20 seconds, the Panzergrenadiers went early.

Have anyone tested the Volksturm or the Sturmtroopers?

[Falcon988]

My experience PBEM with Soviet SMG's, while I played Axis, has been brief and brutal each time. Ranging from the bloodiest and most successful ambush I've seen in Combat Mission, having infantry attacks come to a stand still, or having entire units wiped out in a close range assault.

To put it simply the SMG squads main purpose is to engage enemy infantry at close range. This works particularily well in street fighting. In my experience your options for countering them with your own infantry is limited indeed (engineers with demo charges are always a plus though). But there are still other options.

The key is to support your infantry by suppressing the SMG's. Machine guns, mortars, and direct fire HE off a tank will work wonders for any attack. Artillery... meh, not so much unless you have some really high caliber stuff that you can drop with accuracy.

I was about to suggest using smoke rounds... but, heh, your men would just be mowed down as soon as they became visible at close range anyway. In fact it's preferable -not- to use smoke because the Soviet's will fire their weapons at you from a distance which is a huge mistake for SMG squads. Their mean weakness as I see it is their lack of ammo. If they fire on you from too far away chances are they'll miss and will be low on ammo by the time you attack.

If you're on some city street in Stalingrad and you're trying to attack Soviet SMG squads without any support... well, I wish you the best of luck because changes are you won't get through.

[RAM]

problem is, the player I'm usually playing against usually buys a company of SMG, and lays one platoon in each flag. If there's a big flag (300 point one) he puts two there.

Given the relative prices of german and russian armor he's able either to outnumber me two to one, at the very least, or to outclass me. If I take a couple panthers or tigers (if they are available and cheap enough) he will have more T-34s...and darnit, he KNOWS to use them to outflank me in every situation. if I take a platoon of PzIVs, he's got the quality on his side. He may lose one or two...but I'll loss all of them.

This also means that he'll reach well covered flags first almost always, mounting infantry on board. If I rush for the flags too, we'll reach at roughly the same time, he'll have more numbers, and he'll have all the odds to win because of the close ranges involved.

Also, the russian SMG company is VERY cheap, so he has loads of points to spend on other things...lots of MGs, annoying AT rifles (one of them actually destroyed the gun of one of my panthers in our last ME), or other platoons of other type of infantry. Even the ocassional SU152 who will remain hidden until I unmask my armor (and I must do it if I want to take a flag) and he sets up a good flanking trap for it. Usually the most infantry I'm able to field is one company and one platoon of infantry (Usually I get a Jäger company and a platoon of fusilier) so I can't rely in numbers either.

Life is very very hard for a german player in MEs against russians. I'm still unable to do anything sound against him...last game was 20-80, go figure

[stikkypixie]

Have you tried buying Stugs, the work wonders against T-34's, the long-barreled ones at least, instead of Panthers and Tigers. That way you can buy more armor. You might consider adding some PzIV to fight infantry.

[Glider]

...Not the 11-men per squad 4-squad per platoon that you get in the Mountain SMG platoon in 1943!...[/QB]

Or the <shudder> late-war 12-man Soviet Airborne SMG squad with the firepower of 560!

In my experience German SMG squads are not equal to the Russian ones, the German MP-40 is simply inferior to the Russian PPSh, at least in CMBB.

[Cthulhu Dreams]

Few things

A) Get the flags first, this is the key lesson here. Even if you don't like that rushed style of player, it's still important to grab the objective first. Many of your problems are coming from the fact you have to attack SMG guys in cover. If ghe's attacking you, it's a different story.

Tanks - if it's 43 or earlier, pick up the 80MM fronted stugs for almost all of your tank arm. If you are worried about flanking, buy 1 or 2 cheap ATG's and use them to cover your exposed flank. When the T-34's try and flank the stugs, your ATG should get flanking shots on them, which can be very painful.

After that date, consider Hetzers for your tanks.

C) Bring HE chuckers. The SMG inf is very good, no doubt, but if you can wheel up as stummel half track with canister rounds etc, and blast him out of the position, that can help alot!

[TigerTiger]

Or just buy a couple of Brummbars.

And decorate the flag area with craters.

As a German player, always use armour to attack entrenched infantry. Use infantry to defend that armour from enemy infantry. It has always worked for me. A good team is some Tigers with a company of Panzergrenadiers for support. Add in FO, guns, mortars etc.

[Sirocco]

You don't have to have flag capture as your first priority. If you can cover the approaches to them you can setup in cover and punish your opponent when he tries to capture the flags. You're then in a stronger position to take them later.

[Akula2]

I agree with Sirocco.

If it's points your after ... a win ... then consider what those flags are worth in comparison to any one of your AFVs.

Flags kill.

[Joachim]

Second much of what is said here.

Even a 300 pt flag is just worth the complete loss of a plt. As a rule of thumb I consider regular troops to be worth double their buy points in the AAR screen.

Punish your opponent on his approach march. Maybe some 75mm IGs behind crests. Lots of cheap HE firepower: 100 rounds for the price of a 25 rounds form an FO. Some smoke rounds to block LOS. And they can even kill tanks when they come close. Mix a few ATGs with them to disturb your opponent. Have some transport available. Your opponent has to buy some hvy wpns himself if he wants to kill them. Leaves less for his SMG troops.

If you have 2 LMGs per squad and your opponent has none - use your squads accordingly. Never fight on his terrain. Happily blast away at his troops while they are moving in.

Concentrate on one objective. If you are sure he is there - all of your arty and most of your direct fire goes there. Move in with the last rounds of the barrage - if it is on target.

If you can only target the edge of the woods but he is hiding deep inside - do not use arty on the edge. It won't hurt him.

DF smoke almost works like smoke from indirect fire.

Gruß

Joachim

[Glider]

Don't forget that taking a 300-point flag from your enemy results in a 600-point difference. He loses 300 points and you seize 300 points.

[GRUMLIN]

To expand this a bit further then....

against a soviet night attack where the SMG squads are always going to be able to get close, what would people recommend. Assume that you do not have access to minefields and wire.....just to make it tricky

Grum

[YankeeDog]

Depends a bit on the other conditions at night -- there's a big difference if there's further limitations on LOS than just the darkness alone, like dense terrain, or rain/snow/fog etc.

If it's clear weather and the terrain isn't too dense, here's a trick that another player pulled on me in a night match a while back.

Basically, the strategy goes like this: buy some some cheap MG wagon AFVs. The cheaper, the better. They need enough armor to deflect small arms, but no more than that. 2 MGs, and enough ammo to keep them firing for a while, is also preferable. Allies probably have the best choices here (M3/M5A1 HTs are great in this role), but there are some options on the German side. Station the MG wagons 100m or so behind your infantry positions. Set your infantry with short cover arcs, and initially use them only as spotters to see advancing enemy. When the enemy comes into sight, roll the MG wagons forward with a "Move to Contact" order so that they can open fire when the enemy is still at least 50m or so in front of your infantry positions -- this way, your infantry will never get spotted and the MG wagons will open up on the approaching enemy. Since you still have your infantry positions ahead of your vulnerable AFVs, you'll spot any enemy dangerous to the MG wagons (Tanks, ATRs) before they get close enough to KO your MG wagons.

MG fire is very effective at night. It won't necessarily kill all that many of the enemy, but even Veteran troops panic and rout very quickly under fire in the dark. At night, squads close to the one actually being targeted will often get pinned, or even panicked by the MG fire. Once the enemy is panicked or worse, you can lift the short cover arcs on your infantry, and they'll finish the job. Even SMG squads don't return much fire when they're already panicked or worse.

This tactic should work well defending from any area where you have at least 80m or so of reasonably open ground in front of you -- a deep enough fire zone to see the approaching enemy, and bring up the MG wagons without your own infantry postions being spotted. It works pretty quickly, too -- the idea is to hit the advancing enemy hard, and rout or eliminate them before he can react and bring up reinforcements or Anti-armor assets. Remember, especially at night, a Rout is usually as good as a Kill -- it takes a very long time for routed squad to recover its nerves at night. So just shoot until the enemy starts running away, and then pull back your own forces to the next ambush line.

If the enemy has an approach route that has terrain too dense to this strategy to work, you'll need to close it off some other way. Wire and minefields are great, but if those aren't available, a few TRPs and big @ss arty work wonders at closing off a forested approach route at night -- I always buy a few TRPs and the cheapest spotter I can get in the 120-155mm range I can get when defending in a night battle.

So, as long as the weather is good and it's not really dense terrain, at night you can close off what dense terrain approach routes there are with TRPs and OP/LP pickets to spot the approaching enemy. Then close off more open terrain with infantry backed up with MG-armed light armor. Also, have some AT guns, or mobile AT reserves, to deal with any AFVs he brings forward to deal with your MG wagons.

Worked like a charm against me. I eventually had to try to break the Infantry + MG wagon defense by leading with my heavy armor, which promptly got taken out by some cheap guns he had hiding nearby. Not one of my better efforts. . .

Cheers,

YD

[Nikalai]

I am new to combat missions and have purchased Beyond Overlord. So forgive me if I make a few mistakes.

I am guessing you are playing an engagment battle since I have no Idea what "QBs in ME mode" means.

As for solving the problem one thing i suggest is to put a few light MG's and Snipers in fast cars. Get them to the flags quickly and set them up. Hopefully do to faster speed they will get there first and be able to open fire on the infantry riding the tanks, thus making the infantry dismount (right?). Thus your infantry will get there first.

However the tanks may still kill them so maybe you want to bring an AT team along.

If this is wrong please point out how since I need all the help I can get. And if anybody wants to play a few PBEM games that are very simple contact me since I would like to see how proffesionals play.

[throwdjohn]

Kind of off the topic of SMG squads, but relevant to Assault move type. I recently played "HSG - 19 Medals for 19 Men" and performed my FIRST succesful smoke screen, using assualt to get my men over the bridge (mowing down a couple squads on the way). For newbs like me, give the smoke time. It takes a while to get everythying set up right before you can actually move your men.

[Cannon-fodder]

I like what Joachim was saying. Just to add to it, you should easily have time to get some heavy infantry guns in. Direct fire buildings to the ground, lure SMG squads out of cover and kill them with direct fire and rifle squads. In my experience the only reliable and cheap way to deal with Russian SMGs is to hit them with guns first.

[throwdjohn]

Wow, yank, that is a good tactic, not only for SMG squads either. Have you tried it with any battle other than a night fight? Would the added LOS associated with daytime make this strategy unusable?

[YankeeDog]

It works best at night because of the way LOS works in night battles in CM -- there is a hard distance at which LOS *absolutely* ends.

I don't remember exactly off the top of my head, but I think in clear weather and across perfectly open terrain, LOS ends at about 200m at night. This means units farther away than 200m will *never* be spotted, no matter what they do (though sometimes you can get a sound contact to guns beyond this range if they are firing). IRL, of course, certain activties, such as firing weapons with a large flash signature, might make a vehicle spottable (and therefore targettable) from a considerably longer distance. There would also be other X factors, such as the enemy using star shells or other artificial illimination.

So as long as your infantry is far enough out in front of your thin-armored MG wagon to see any approching anti-armor weapons before they get close enough to see and target the MG wagon, you'll have time to move the MG wagon back into safety. The real danger is ATRs, stealthy enough to possibly sneak up within range of the MG wagon without your infantry spotting them. This is not easily done, though. And generally, ATRs don't kill even light armor on the first few shots, so you still have time to move the MG wagon back to safety. Remember, you only need about 2 turns' worth of intense MG fire to rout all but the highest experience troops at night.

Some other conditions, such as heavy fog, can yield similar conditions that make this tactic work. Even in daytime at clear skies, you can occasionally implement similar tactics. One example is when defending an approach route through scattered trees in winter -- if the patch of scattered trees is deep enough, you can put the MG wagon a good 50m or so behind the infantry, an they'll still be able to hit the enemy infantry before they reach your infantry's foxholes. The idea is that you have a forward OP that stays hidden and watches for the approach of enemy anti-armor assets while the MG wagon dishes out pain. If you use your imagination and experiment, I bet you can think of other situations where it would work.

However, it is especially effective at night because infantry panics so easily in the dark. Remember, MG fire doesn't usually kill very quickly. Darkenss, however, intensifies MG fire's panic and routing effects. Even SMG squads can be rolled over by plain rifle squads once they're routed.

The other thing to remember is that some of the really light MG Wagons have REALLY light armor(ex: Allied M3 Scout Car w/ only 6mm). Armo this thin can be penetrated by rifle caliber MG fire at range. In the daytime, you therefore have to very careful of HMG teams and light AA guns like 20mm autocannons, which can kill them from a considerable distance without being spotted. Not so at night, where the hard LOS line makes it difficult for your oppoenent to move these forces close enough to the MG wagon without your forward infantry spotting them.

So use it mostly at night, but an observant and inventive player can probably find occasions to use it in the daytime, too.

Cheers,

YD

[throwdjohn]

Thanks, yanks. Invaluable advice. Interesting note tho : HTs hit in the rear by AT rifle fire don't often get hurt.