Silvio Manuel Posted January 7, 2003 Share Posted January 7, 2003 EDIT: Damn...this was meant for the Gen.Forum. I'll repost it there, I'm sure this will get lost or locked. Fionn, In the AAR you did of your battle vs. The_Capt at Mods & Modders (1930's USSR manevuerist vs. modern NATO attritionist), you chose vehicles based on what roles the 30's Sov doctrine called for. Were you trying to simulate actual vehicles from that era (and if so, which ones?), or just picking the best AFV for the stated doctrinal role? I like the format of that battle and would like to play something similar against one of my opponents. My guesses are: Scouts- 5x M3A1 S.Car = tankette? BA scout car? Breakthrough- 4x M18 Hellcat= BT fast tanks Support/anti-AT defense- 4x M4-76mm Sherman= T-35 or -28? (T-34?) Inf.Support- 12x M8 HMC= T-26? The same goes for the artillery you chose (9x 4.2" mortar), what does that signify? I see that the Sovs actually did have some 107mm, perhaps only early-war. And the infantry- is that 1 Bn plus a Recon Bn (maybe with your Scout Cars signifying the Recon Bn's AFV?) Admittedly, I should probably delve into this stuff myself. I just read that Zaloga piece regarding the Soviet tank troop experience in the Spanish Civil War, it was very interesting. Thank you, SM [ January 07, 2003, 12:51 PM: Message edited by: Silvio Manuel ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted January 8, 2003 Share Posted January 8, 2003 Silvio, Well, I didn't have any specific vehicles in mind although I did have vehicle types ( represented in CMBB) in mind. Reason for this: The actual vehicles which could be used would change from year to year as new vehicles came into production. Eg. Late-war Scouts: BAs to T70s (depending on the year). Basically anything which is only strong enough to MG enemy infantry and, possibly, fight it out with their armoured cars/light recon tanks. Support of the infantry: T34-76s. AT/ ATG defence in the breakthrough zone: SU- series Breakthrough: T34-85. Reasons: T70s can fight the German A/Cs and fight of small infantry anti-recon detachments. At a time when the switch was being made between T34-76s and T34-85s it would make sense to attach the plentiful T34-76s to support the infantry whilst supporting them with the powerful anti-tank guns ( and large HE Blast) of the SU series. Meanwhile T34-85s would break through German lines and defeat their armoured reserves ( thus necessitating the most powerful anti-tank guns available on fast chassis). In the early war it might look something like this: Scouts: BAs Infantry support: T26s or BTs with 76.2mm short-barrelled cannon ( best mobile HE firepower at that time). ATG support ( T28s and T35s) breakthrough - BT-7s I feel that the early war version of this would more closely represent the force I put together as the late-war force is forced to make many compromises due to the Soviet decision to go for a single standardised tank chassis ( the T34) for both the infantry support, breakthrough and ATG roles)... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted January 8, 2003 Share Posted January 8, 2003 As re: the arty etc: Well, you can think as the infantry as an ordinary infantry Bn preceded by a recon company drawn from regimental or divisional resources. Arty: Well that was the big compromise. It was intended to simulate 82mm and 120mm Soviet mortar fire ( on the basis that the Soviets hadn't had time to bring all their gun/howitzers up into range along this axis of advance yet. Admittedly 4.2" arty wasn't a perfect compromise but it was the best I had available to represent the sort of arty the Schwerpunkt of a Soviet schwerpunkt regiment could move along with it so as to be ready to give rapid fire support. Basically though my force comprised a best fit force when constrained by CM points limits and US force limits. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silvio Manuel Posted January 8, 2003 Author Share Posted January 8, 2003 Thanks for the reply. Regarding early war, I thought that BT/T-26 artillery tanks armed w/ 76.2mm were very rare...at least in CMBB they are. I wouldn't have thought that you would pick so rare a unit to buy 12 of. The Sovs didn't really have any non T-34/KV tanks that could do the Anti-ATG role in the early going. One fwd MG and a 45mm gun isn't really going to keep the Platoon from being pumped full of 37/50mm. I wasn't using BA's much for recon since in certain (many?) months they are far more rare than the tankette/amphib. tanks. I had been thinking about using T-26 M1931 for Infantry Support, since they only have 2 MG and are thus "forced" to do only that role. Thanks, SM 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted January 8, 2003 Share Posted January 8, 2003 Silvio, Well, Soviet Scwherpunkt forces could expect to receive a LOT of tank support according to Soviet pre-war doctrine. I suggest you read the article on Soviet tank doctrine I once wrote for CMHQ. It goes into some detail on this and makes for some very interesting reading. Pillar, I believe I've made it perfectly clear that after the excessive and abusive comments by others re: my plea to be inclusive when remembering civilian death and injuries resulting from 9-11-2001 (since ANY civilian death is to be mourned irrespective of whether it was an American or Afghan) I have absolutely no intention to release any AARs, articles, tactical tips or doctrinal explanations to the participants of this forum in general. I'd be stupid to waste my time writing things for people who threatened me so egregiously (and for those who urged them on from the sidelines/stood idly by). No, any of the AARs I've written in CMBB ( 6 at last count) or tactical tips etc are only being shown to a small group of people who can disagree with eachother without becoming animalistic in their rage. [ January 08, 2003, 11:24 AM: Message edited by: Fionn ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Leader Posted January 8, 2003 Share Posted January 8, 2003 What? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoopenfaust2 Posted January 8, 2003 Share Posted January 8, 2003 Originally posted by Fionn: No, any of the AARs I've written in CMBB ( 6 at last count) or tactical tips etc are only being shown to a small group of people who can disagree with eachother without becoming animalistic in their rage.Thats a shame. Fionn is the Original Gangsta of AARs and most of your details are great teaching lessons. Cheers 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParaBellum Posted January 8, 2003 Share Posted January 8, 2003 Yup. In fact it was while reading Fionn's great AARs when I thought first about doing one of my own. Not that the quality of my AARs is even in the same league with his, though. "The sunken Lane" against Wild Bill is one of the best AARs I've ever read. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PvtTom Posted January 8, 2003 Share Posted January 8, 2003 It's a shame that the few ruined it for the rest. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted January 9, 2003 Share Posted January 9, 2003 To those of you who have posted here (and contacted me privately since I posted)... except Pillar... thank you, I appreciate it. Who knows how times will change but as of now I have no appetite to waste my scarce free time on something which certain groups will seek to throw back in my face and misrepresent. OTOH one of the wisest of all sayings is probably "Never say never." Parabellum, Oh don't put yourself down. I've been reading the AAR of the Panzers vs T34s and the story of the bogged again, unbogged again KV with interest. I haven't posted to the thread casue some of the folks there were the same as contributed to the thread which gave rise to this decision (and I don't want to take a chance on reviving their ire) but I have been reading it and enjoying it. To be honest I don't know which side to feel sorrier for . Whoever wins is going to have to spend a lot of time in reserve resting and refitting after this battle. Still, it makes for good reading and that's one of the essentials in any AAR IMO. It is far too easy to slip into a dry recounting of doctrine, unpunctuated by wonder or heroics and while that may be satisfying to a military professional it won't keep people reading and one thing no-one can deny is that players won't learn the lessons of an AAR if they don't actually read it. Therefore just the right amount of "spice" far from detracting from an AAR actually hugely improves it. I also think the enthusiasm of you and your opponent comes through tremendously well. Your posts convey the amount of fun and tension you both found in the PEM and that helps people connect, identify and emotionally invest themselves ( all key points which, again, are often missed). P.s. I'm glad to see no-one getting on ur case about the AAR. You deserve to get a good reception. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Egbert Posted January 9, 2003 Share Posted January 9, 2003 Fionn, I missed the thread where you were hassled. Too bad closed minded and uneducated people exist. It creates more censorship than we realise. In your AAR's CMHQ. I remember reviewing them diligently when I started CMBO. From an old squad Leader fan, they were an excellent demonstration of the new mechanics and the theory I was to learn. Last month, I re-walked-through a couple, to get the finer points. Good luck to you and may the jerks get tired of the community, get educated, get theirs. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreeKitten Posted January 9, 2003 Share Posted January 9, 2003 I loved downloading and watching Fion's PBEM games. I've searched for PBEM games for CMBB but I haven't found any. I used to watch his games like I'd watch my DVDs, sit back and relax with a cold brew... I wish there were more =( 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kanonier Reichmann Posted January 9, 2003 Share Posted January 9, 2003 Originally posted by Fionn: To those of you who have posted here (and contacted me privately since I posted)... except Pillar... thank you, I appreciate it. Who knows how times will change but as of now I have no appetite to waste my scarce free time on something which certain groups will seek to throw back in my face and misrepresent. OTOH one of the wisest of all sayings is probably "Never say never." Jeez, I dunno. I saw the film and thought it was crap! Parabellum, Oh don't put yourself down. I've been reading the AAR of the Panzers vs T34s and the story of the bogged again, unbogged again KV with interest. I haven't posted to the thread casue some of the folks there were the same as contributed to the thread which gave rise to this decision (and I don't want to take a chance on reviving their ire) but I have been reading it and enjoying it. To be honest I don't know which side to feel sorrier for . Whoever wins is going to have to spend a lot of time in reserve resting and refitting after this battle.Especially with one commander deciding the best use of his (expensive) resources is to charge a toothless AFV at its opposite number in the hope of blocking LOS when it gets destroyed. :eek: Still, it makes for good reading and that's one of the essentials in any AAR IMO. It is far too easy to slip into a dry recounting of doctrine, unpunctuated by wonder or heroics and while that may be satisfying to a military professional it won't keep people reading and one thing no-one can deny is that players won't learn the lessons of an AAR if they don't actually read it. Therefore just the right amount of "spice" far from detracting from an AAR actually hugely improves it. I also think the enthusiasm of you and your opponent comes through tremendously well. Your posts convey the amount of fun and tension you both found in the PEM and that helps people connect, identify and emotionally invest themselves ( all key points which, again, are often missed).Couldn't agree more. It's a great read. P.s. I'm glad to see no-one getting on ur case about the AAR. You deserve to get a good reception.No way! He threw away that poor Panzer II when ordering it rush out from behind the building into the teeth of a waiting KVI! BTW, it's good to see you back contributing to the board again Fionn. 'Tis a pity about no future AAR's but we'll learn to survive without them. Perhaps some information that may help you decide to reverse your decision. I haven't seen many posts from Jason C. lately so this could help sway you if you're wavering. Regards Jim R. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParaBellum Posted January 9, 2003 Share Posted January 9, 2003 Thank you for your kind words, Fionn. If the people who read our AAR can feel the fun we had playing the game and like our little tale than it achieved it's goal. And if some even learn a thing or two through reading it I'll be more than happy. I'd be glad if you would comment on my 'summary/lessons learnt' passage that I'll post in the last part later this week. regards, 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terence Posted January 9, 2003 Share Posted January 9, 2003 I think you should go ahead and post the AAR. If you can stay away from political commentary, I'm sure it will be happily reviewed by the community with no ill will, or reminders of past unpleasantness on either side. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PvtTom Posted January 9, 2003 Share Posted January 9, 2003 Fionn, I always enjoyed your AARs in the CMBO days, sorry there will not be anymore. Para, your AAR is great, please do more when you have the time, I look foward to checking the thread every day. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silvio Manuel Posted January 9, 2003 Author Share Posted January 9, 2003 Originally posted by Terence: I think you should go ahead and post the AAR. If you can stay away from political commentary, I'm sure it will be happily reviewed by the community with no ill will, or reminders of past unpleasantness on either side.Fionn, I agree with Terence. Esp. since your departure was related to General Forum-type issues. I would hope that posting a CMBB AAR won't make you think that you will be hassled again. After all, how much flak did you get when you posted the Fionn/The_Capt AAR here (hosted at Mods and Modders)? It is too bad when such a small few can piss you off so much, but OTOH there's only about 11,000 registered users here who would since their hungry tactical fangs into it. SM 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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