Reincarnated Posted October 20, 2003 Share Posted October 20, 2003 I'm designing a new campaign companion for CMBB that will follow the actions of certain elements of Army Group Center. What I need is detailed information on the movements of troops in the first few months of the campaign. Any ideas on books, websites or other resources that could give me a hand? What I'm really interested in are the movements of Guderian's panzer forces, infantry actions in the rear areas, the encirclement of Russian troops in Belarus, the crossings of the Bug and Dnieper Rivers and any details concerning the setup of smaller units (batallion down). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted October 20, 2003 Share Posted October 20, 2003 You could try Werner Haupt 'Army Group Centre' for an overview. If it is like his Army Group North, it will be division level, but sometimes drill down deeper than that. Then you can pick and choose for specific operations. Otherwise you may have to find a divisional history of an infantry division (they were often in just one Army Group until the very end) for more detailed stuff. That will be next to impossible in English, and very costly in German. Haupt is so-so as a writer, IMO. He was an officer in AG North, and he has written an awful lot. I usually only trust him if it is high-level stuff or corroborated elsewhere. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alkiviadis Posted October 20, 2003 Share Posted October 20, 2003 If you can find "Hitler Moves East" by Paul Carrell, it has a lot of low level action narritive, but he was the chief propagandist for the Nazi F.O. during WW2 so must be taken with a whole salt shaker. Also: "The Initial Period of the War on the Eastern Front 22 June - Aug 1941" by Glantz is the outstanding choice for the first part of the campaign. Operational level. "Thunder on the Dnepr" by Fugate "Operation Barbarossa" by Fugate "Hitler's Panzers East" by Stolfi "Deadlock before Moscow" byKurowski These last 4 all have their respective problems bad writing, minimal to no maps, author pushing a theory, etc. The latter 2 particularly are very pro German in their bias. But I would look at Fugate. [ October 20, 2003, 10:34 AM: Message edited by: Stalins Organ ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonC Posted October 20, 2003 Share Posted October 20, 2003 A website with operational level 1941 info and maps from the Russian side of the hill - http://www.shortway.to/1941/ Quality varies considerably. Some of the original maps are extremely detailed but they hard to read, as the scanned picture resolution is low and the labels etc are Russian. Others are clear and translated. The narrative includes actual op orders in places, and sometimes focuses on smaller scale actions with good detail. Anecdotal strength and preparedness information, sometimes very important sometimes completely absent. Poorly translated from the original Russian in parts, some screamers in the original. But still a useful and accessible source. Note that this is one satellite site out of several by the same guy. His others, on the battle of Moscow (his main subject) and Leningrad can be found here - http://www.serpukhov.su/dima/war/eng/eindex.htm 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
62nd Army Posted October 20, 2003 Share Posted October 20, 2003 Reincarnated- I am working on a series of operations detailing the exploits of XXIV Panzer Korps. The one I'm working on now details the actions of 3rd and 18th Panzer Divisions around Novgorod-Severskie (leading up to the crossing of the Desna) in August, 1941. I've been using a number of the books mentioned (as well as Guderian's memior) as source material...need to get some time to check out the web site that was mentioned. If you find any other useful material (especially OOB and troop strength details), please post it here so some of us other 2nd Panzer Groupies can make use of it. After we get some work done, perhaps we can exchange files and do some play-testing of each other's work. TTFN -Jojo 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reincarnated Posted October 21, 2003 Author Share Posted October 21, 2003 Thanks for the ideas. I think I will have to make a number of concessions regarding exact details. I don't think it will be a huge problem because of two factors. First, the scale and scenario designer of CMBB are going to limit me to smaller actions. Second, the objective of my campaign is not to show what individual units did, but rather to show the type of battles that were taking place. So, if I know that a certain division was in a certain region, the basic TO&E of that division and it's command structure, what conditions it fought under and what kind of orders it was receiving that will be enough. From there I will design scenarios roughly based on actual battles to convey a sense of what was happening such that players see how war was fought on the East Front in 1941 and later. 62nd Army I would love to share the wealth with you, but you will have to wait for me to become a wealthy man. I've got a list of books a mile long that I need to track down through my local library, but I promise I'll post anything that I see for myself to be worth a read. As for playtesting, I'd love to see what you think of my scenarios. I'm a bit worried about how they're going to play because I'm making them with no regard to fairness, adequate cover, play balance, etc. I just make a map that looks like what I see of Belarus and let the player figure out how to approach the terrain. My goal to give the player an objective, a few core units and let him/her decide on the rest (including trying to get his/her hands on tools to do the job). Since every player will approach my maps in a different way I'm not too interested in balance. How about if I e-mail you and tell you a bit more about what I have in mind? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
62nd Army Posted October 21, 2003 Share Posted October 21, 2003 Originally posted by Reincarnated: How about if I e-mail you and tell you a bit more about what I have in mind? Sounds good, email is in my profile. I too am shooting for some realism...but I know it'll never be exactly perfect. I've been using general goals for my scenarios (i.e take village, cross river, cut road, etc.), and what I think are realistic force compositions. What I really need is some detail, on say a monthly basis, about troop strengths (i.e casualties), and info about supply for units on each side of any given battle...well, I'm rambling; send an email and we can discuss in more detail. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crowbar Posted October 21, 2003 Share Posted October 21, 2003 Quote "A website with operational level 1941 info and maps from the Russian side of the hill - http://www.shortway.to/1941/ http://www.serpukhov.su/dima/war/eng/eindex.htm" I'd be a bit wary with some of the sites - after looking at the map site nortons av was picking up js.Exception.Exploit virus 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reincarnated Posted October 21, 2003 Author Share Posted October 21, 2003 Originally posted by crowbar: Quote "A website with operational level 1941 info and maps from the Russian side of the hill - http://www.shortway.to/1941/ http://www.serpukhov.su/dima/war/eng/eindex.htm" I'd be a bit wary with some of the sites - after looking at the map site nortons av was picking up js.Exception.Exploit virus Yeah, thanks Crowbar. I was meaning to come back and post a warning. The maps are run through with viruses. If you go to these sites don't download anything or click on any of the links (which, on second thought, sort of equates to a "don't go there at all"). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarryInk Posted October 22, 2003 Share Posted October 22, 2003 Damn...wish I'd read your virus warning first! *sigh* 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reincarnated Posted October 22, 2003 Author Share Posted October 22, 2003 Originally posted by HarryInk: Damn...wish I'd read your virus warning first! *sigh* Sorry, dood. I should have written that warning in big bold letters. Have you ever seen such a screwed up website? Oh, and I did find an interesting book if anyone's looking for what I believe to be an objective point of view on the whole mess that is not blatantly enamoured with German armour. Lots of stuff from the other side of the Dnieper. The Road to Stalingrad by John Erickson ISBN: 0-06-011141-0 Incidentally, I picked up a copy of "An Army at Dawn" by Rick Atkinson and it looks great. If I mix it with "The Army Air Forces in WWII" by Crate and Craven I think there would be little left to know about the whole North Africa thing. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted October 23, 2003 Share Posted October 23, 2003 Originally posted by Reincarnated: Incidentally, I picked up a copy of "An Army at Dawn" by Rick Atkinson and it looks great. If I mix it with "The Army Air Forces in WWII" by Crate and Craven I think there would be little left to know about the whole North Africa thing. True. Well, "the whole North Africa thing" apart from the entire first three years of the war, of course. Still, it has the added benefit of only relying on a single sources. Regards JonS 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reincarnated Posted October 23, 2003 Author Share Posted October 23, 2003 Originally posted by JonS: True. Well, "the whole North Africa thing" apart from the entire first three years of the war, of course. Still, it has the added benefit of only relying on a single source.I imagine you are refering to the Rick Atkinson book? Oh, that's too bad. And it looked so good. Well, better this way as I don't really have time to read it and it was threatening to distract me from more important projects. "The Army Air Forces in WWII (Vol.2)" is still an excellent source of information if you're interested. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reincarnated Posted October 23, 2003 Author Share Posted October 23, 2003 Originally posted by 62nd Army: If you find any other useful material (especially OOB and troop strength details), please post it here so some of us other 2nd Panzer Groupies can make use of it.I found this website and thought you might like to have a look. There's no OOB's that I can see, but there is some detailed info you might find a use for. Dig around a bit. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Stalingrad Oh, and these ones, too. I'm having a good Google night. 1)Third Reich Factbook-Lots of stuff here. Some pretty decent OOBs. http://www.skalman.nu/third-reich/index.htm 2)Panzer War Archive-Basically a list of links to OnWar.com except for the Forum and the very nice list of Fuhrer directives. http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/1084/index.html 3)And this is OnWar.com. The main attractions here are the tank sections and chronology. Pretty impressive stuff. www.onwar.com Cheers [ October 23, 2003, 03:50 AM: Message edited by: Reincarnated ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted October 23, 2003 Share Posted October 23, 2003 "Army at Dawn" is a splendid book, but it's focus is on the US Army (and rightly so). Hence as a one-stop, this-is-the-only-book-I-need-to-read-about-NA, it falls somewhat short. Regards JonS 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reincarnated Posted October 23, 2003 Author Share Posted October 23, 2003 Originally posted by 62nd Army: If you find any other useful material (especially OOB and troop strength details), please post it here so some of us other 2nd Panzer Groupies can make use of it.I'm on a roll tonight. Here's a list of books concerning Leningrad. http://www.onwar.com/shoppe/ww2/bandc/efront/leningrad/fleningrad.htm Cheers p.s. Now that I look at it, the sites got an amazing selection of books. It looks like a complete bibliography for WWII. [ October 23, 2003, 06:27 AM: Message edited by: Reincarnated ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
62nd Army Posted October 23, 2003 Share Posted October 23, 2003 Thanks for the links. I've only just visited them briefly, they look quite extensive. I'll look into them more thoroughly after work...they could be just what I'm looking for. I'll let you know if I find anything really interesting about 2nd Panzergruppe. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Bolt Posted October 23, 2003 Share Posted October 23, 2003 Try "The Destruction of Army Group Centre - subtitled "Hitler's Greatest Defeat" can't remember the author. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted October 23, 2003 Share Posted October 23, 2003 Paul Adair (Col. ret. dec.) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacobs_ladder Posted October 24, 2003 Share Posted October 24, 2003 Another interesting source is the Steel Panthers game. It's a big download, but there's an excellent TO&E in it and the game is packed with information. www.steelpanthersonline.com/main.asp Salud 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eichenbaum Posted October 24, 2003 Share Posted October 24, 2003 You're designing a campaign? Very interesting This link might be useful if you didn't check it out before : http://www.feldgrau.com you can search on this site with http://www.feldgrau.com/search.html 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarryInk Posted October 24, 2003 Share Posted October 24, 2003 Paul Adair's book: "Hitler's Greatest Defeat" is about AG Centre in 1944 rather than 1941, which I gather is the preferred time here? I found the book initially interesting but quickly tired of the lousy maps and Adair's inability to marry large and small detials: from Hitler down the to front. Maybe it was me but I felt it became more and more inchoerent. Worth and borrow but don't buy it! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
62nd Army Posted October 25, 2003 Share Posted October 25, 2003 Reincarnated- The skalman.nu site you posted has been very helpful, thanks for sharing it. Also, the wikipedia.org site is kind of cool too. BTW, the Stalingrad article there cites a single source-"Stalingrad: The Fateful Siege", by Antony Beevor-which if you haven't read, I can highly recommend it. Mr. Beevor's book on the fall of Berlin is also a good read. The onwar stuff is good as well...especially the WWII chronology and the bibliography. jacobs_ladder- I downloaded SP:WaW quite some time ago, and it never even dawned on me to use it as reference material...thanks for the heads up. eichenbaum- All I can say is WOW :eek: . That is a very useful reference site for my purposes. Thank you, Thank you, Thank you!!! I've only just scratched the surface and already have a head full of great ideas that I can apply to CMBB. I'm thinking of doing a series of battles highlighting winners of the Ritterkreuz during the opening months of Barbarossa (there are a number from 2nd Panzergruppe: July/August/September 1941). Now I just need a similar source for the Russian side. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eichenbaum Posted October 25, 2003 Share Posted October 25, 2003 Originally posted by 62nd Army: ...eichenbaum- All I can say is WOW :eek: . That is a very useful reference site for my purposes. Thank you, Thank you, Thank you!!! I've only just scratched the surface and already have a head full of great ideas that I can apply to CMBB. I'm thinking of doing a series of battles highlighting winners of the Ritterkreuz during the opening months of Barbarossa (there are a number from 2nd Panzergruppe: July/August/September 1941). Now I just need a similar source for the Russian side. You don't have to thank me. Send your gratitude towards feldgrau.com for their excellent website A head full of ideas huh? Maybe you can drop me an e-mail with your thoughts ? Nils 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted October 25, 2003 Share Posted October 25, 2003 Originally posted by Reincarnated: Incidentally, I picked up a copy of "An Army at Dawn" by Rick Atkinson and it looks great. If I mix it with "The Army Air Forces in WWII" by Crate and Craven I think there would be little left to know about the whole North Africa thing. As we now know, "Reincarnated" (one of his several personas) has been banned once again, so I don't suppose there is much chance he will be reading this reply, but just for the record, one should never, ever assume that there is "little left to know" about any subject. And military history comes in really high on that list, right under "What women really think". Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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