Tactics for defeating Soviet AT gun defense.

War Gecko · November 30, 2007

My friend and I generally play quick battle maps with the ability to select our own forces. Generally we go with a randomized map of the year 1941. I generally pick the Soviets as my friend is more familiar with German forces. During one of these games, I thought of making a soviet AT defense. This is typically constructed of 6-7 76 mm AT regimental guns, 4 or so Maxim machine guns and a mix of sub machine gun squads with rifle squads (regular). There is also a large amount of trenches (about 10 or so if I remember correctly) arranged in a semi-circle from the edge of the map to the other, depending on tree coverage and hill locations.

The troops would be arranged accordingly with what I perceive to be his main thrust according to the map and foliage. Typically I put the sub-machine gun squads next to areas that I think he will try to attack and move around forces from trench to trench if applicable during the approach if a reserve is possible. After those the rifle squads are used. They are used for medium range support and are moved around as necessary if available. With the rifle squads and behind them are the machine guns. They are used for suppression and, well, for killing. The AT guns are spread around the map, generally in clusters that are spread out enough as to hopefully cause most artillery to be ineffective, especially if done in a small area. This is a loose assessment, of course.

This works since the auto-assigner generally selected a German attack or probe for some reason. Anyway, I did this strategy for 3 or 4 games in a row and he wasn't able to get any of the flags. We also tried artillery, but that didn't work, either.

It's a 1000 point medium map. What type of German forces and/or strategy would you suggest to tackle this type of defense assuming an average map for 1941.

(note: It doesn't seem that concentrated tank support, or artillery, even if heavy, seems to work. We tried both of those and still failed.)

Der Alte Fritz · December 1, 2007

I am afraid your arrangement is not very historical and hence any real life German tactics would not be applicable. Russians would use 45mm guns as AT guns - the 76mm was a divisional gun. Even in 1943 at Kursk a AT strongpoint would only have 4 of these and 4 45mm AT guns.

The main German strength is in long and medium range fire. Their MG is better than yours, their flexible artillery, mortars and specialised support vehicles. Yours is in short range fire Maxims and SMGs.

So their carry out reconnaissence, your MGs that open up are supressed by the superior number and firepower of the German ones and then knocked out by 20mm auto or short 75mm fire. Your AT guns when they fire are knocked out by over watch mortars. German troops stay in the open and plaster woods and bits of cover with a flexible 105mm artillery spotter rending your SMG troops useless.

Really in 1941 the main Russian advantage is their heavy tanks.

Der Alte Fritz · December 2, 2007

I had a trial go last night and tried to make it difficult. Infantry attacked across open ground and I did not take any HMG with me just two PzIVE and 2 20mm Flak and lots of mortars.

End result attack was a bit slow and I lost a tank but knocked out 5 76mm AT guns, 8 HMG and my infantry were well on their way to the flags by move 30. It is hard and the Germans do have to establish fire superiority but it can be done.

December 2, 2007

deleted per user request

JasonC · December 2, 2007

Mortars are the standard counter in the German combined arms mix, as the others have already mentioned. They haven't yet mentioned the SPW 251/2 as a form of it - it is much more mobile, protected from MG and infantry fire, and has a huge ammo load. This typically allows it to do the work of 2 foot mortar teams, provided you are careful enough with it not to lose it early to a gun.

The number of 81s the Germans would typically have is 2 per company at a minimum, up to double that if they know they are going to be taking on a gun based defense.

81mms work against guns by firing for 1-2 minutes on each, with an HMG taking over after that to maintain any level of pin the mortar achieved. You don't have to KO each gun. Also, vs. trenches it helps to bring the mortars fairly close, as accuracy rises as the range falls. At 200-250 meters a single 81mm is deadly to a gun in a trench. At 500m ranges and longer, too many rounds will miss. (Veteran quality and combat bonus leaders obviously also help).

There is another less appreciated counter to gun defenses, though. Take the cheap strafing only aircraft, e.g. the Me-109 F model for 57 points as regular, or a little more as vet. In CM, strafing AC can frequently spot guns before they have fired. They will usually strafe from outside the gun's covered arc, thus avoiding its gun shield. While it can take a while for them to show up, they can't be controlled, and they might be distracted by light vehicles, they are still a bargain at the price.

There are two other components of dealing with gun defenses as an early war German, specificially. Later on, the Germans have AFV types that can withstand all but the strongest Russian ATG (the 57mm, which in turn is costly) if they show only their frontal arc. Early, they don't have that option. But in 1941, the Russians generally won't have scads of ATRs yet, and this opens a different vehicle countermeasure.

Which is to take lots of "light radio car"s or smaller PSWs in platoon form. These are MG armed light armor, and the idea is to use them rather than your best AFVs as "gun bait". The later Russian counter to this tactic is to hit the light stuff with ATRs, without revealing the full ATGs.

The sequence then is, (1) German infantry scouts until pinned by MG fire (2) light armor advances to get full IDs of the Russian MGs to allow reply fire (3) if a Russian ATG shows itself to kill the scout car, then (4) an 81mm mortar takes it out, while everyone else pauses.

As for the Russian infantry portion of the defense, there the Germans just don't want to close in to ranges under 150m or so until they have been worked over by HE. This keeps the range is good German MG firepower regions and out of good Russian SMG regions. The HE work over comes from (1) 75mm direct from Panzer IVs, StuGs, or 75mm leIGs and/or (2) 105mm FOs, or 150mm FOs, in the case of platoon or larger positions in woods. (You can also (3) try to use 150mm direct from sIGs, and/or quad 20mm "meatchoppers", as "start line firepower").

Specifically in 1941, Pz 38ts E model, or Somuas can also be used as the "risk armor". They are cheap and well protected against anything but a long 76mm ATGs (the 38s it is true, only from the front).

The doctrinal German counter for infantry in large patches of cover is to use pioneer infantry, with their FTs and DCs. But you can also just put a large caliber FO on the place, and I prefer that. The FT-DC approach has a tactical problem, that the Russian SMGs outrange them by a factor of about 2 (PPsHs are deadly at 75m, the pioneers want more like 30m). If the terrain is "tight" enough so that initial LOS in 30m, though, they can work. But overall I find them harder to use than the "HE from range" route.

You don't need every one of these expediants, but you do always need an adequate number of the 81mm mortars, plus some mix of the others to help, and to deal with Russian infantry. Notice also that the on map guns can also help against IDed Russian guns - they just aren't as mobile or "asymmetric" as the mortars. leIGs and 20mm quads are still less expensive than Russian 76mm guns and can duel them with about equal chances.

Last, the mortars and on map guns can also smoke a known gun position, to set up an isolated duel with another, protect a piece of armor caught in the open, or get men across a stretch of covered ground. Defending guns have limited "sight footprints", and you can frequently leave a couple of them merely out of position, by choice of route and a few judicious smoke missions to cross their fire lanes.

December 2, 2007

deleted per user request

Cuirassier · December 3, 2007

The true German doctrinal approach would be to send a Panzer regiment supported by a Panzer Grenadier Battalion. Of course, this would make for a seriously unbalanced CMBB game.

War Gecko · December 5, 2007

Thanks. We were able to get a slight victory over it and got a bit of the technique down. At least under similar circumstances. My friend has a newfound respect for mortars.

Sanok · December 7, 2007

Originally posted by JasonC:
The sequence then is, (1) German infantry scouts until pinned by MG fire (2) light armor advances to get full IDs of the Russian MGs to allow reply fire (3) if a Russian ATG shows itself to kill the scout car, then (4) an 81mm mortar takes it out, while everyone else pauses.

This sounds easy reading it in a post, but how does one actually do it in a CM battle?

The terrain affects the ability to set up overwatch. Mortars and MGs move slowly. When faced with a turn limit, how do I accomplish this?

Needless to say, I'm not very good as the attacker, and I'd *really* like to learn to become better at it.

JasonC · December 8, 2007

Sanok,

Achieving combined arms coordination in practice

It is close to the whole art of tactics, so it is an involved subject.

You need to plan your whole approach with an eye to achieving it.

From the force selection stage, to pre-battle terrain analysis and planning,

to tasking, to formations, to the principles governing adaptations made

during actual execution - combined arms coordination and how to achieve

it at the required points - and if possible to deny it to the enemy -

drives your decisions. There is an abstract level above it where the plan

doesn't care about such details, and a tactical level below it where you

are just making the most sensible move with each unit. But pretty much

everything in between is done with a view to getting the right lopsided

combined arms match ups, or at least having all your forces employed

sensibly at tasks they are good at, against enemies they can handle.

I will discuss it from the attacker's viewpoint, but obviously it helps

to be able to think about the problem from both sides of the field. It is

generally agreed the attacker's side is harder, in the sense of more work

(there is no necessity that it be any harder in the sense of less likely to

succeed).

At the force selection stage, you need to pick a force mix that has the

potential to achieve good combined arms coordination. Which means you need

something for every critical role, and robustly enough that it will likely

survive contact with the enemy, in enough numbers to have some of what you

need where you need it, etc. The historical force balances are generally

pretty good at this, though sometimes you can do significantly better with

2-3 times of some item than the standard TOEs, especially if you can see

the defense coming (e.g. can predict the enemy will rely on a gun based

defense in "up" positions, meaning covering open areas at long range).

I talked about that in my previous post. But I'll go into a bit more

detail and related to tasking a couple of steps later.

Infantry has two roles in the sequence I described - (1) scouting to find

the enemy and draw his fire, and (2) finishing off his infantry positions

after HE has worked them over. So obviously at the force selection stage,

you need enough infantry to do both - and enough to do it robustly, i.e.

to succeed at (2) after losses doing task (1).

How much is enough? You can't scout effectively with less than a platoon,

along any one axis. And that point platoon can't expect to hurt the enemy

at all - it is only going to draw his fire and probably get pinned as a result.

The minimum force that can *attack* with infantry is a reduced company -

meaning 2 platoons with a higher HQ, plus a heavy weapons section of

some kind for ranged fire support.

A rule of thumb here is that a force of limited quality can carry out a

mission you'd normally entrust to a high quality force about one step size

lower, or with one less platoon. In other words, you can probe with a

green company or attack with two a green ones, or probe with a veteran

platoon acting pretty much on its own. A reduced veteran company can attack;

with enough tank support (a full platoon), even just a pair of veteran

platoons without a higher HQ.

I am not saying take that little at the start, unless it is a very small

scenario. But think of those as minimum "task sizes" - if you only have

enough for one axis that way, your attack will have only one main axis.

If you have enough for two, you can pick from a wider range of possible

overall plans of maneuver. Etc.

How many mortars is enough? I find a single 81mm or a pair of lighter

mortars is sufficient to deal with a single point target. (Brit 2 inches are

a bit light even as pairs, since they have so little ammo - they are a special

case. They actually work by smoking targets more than by killing them,

but that is a detail). There is little reason to put more than that in one

heavy weapons group, therefore. The idea is to maximize the number of

locations from which you can deliver gun-pinning fire. So each 81mm, to

stick with the German 1941 case, will have its own heavy weapons group.

A heavy weapons group needs items to deal with multiple enemy threats.

It is a toolbox for range fighting. A good one for Germans is 2 HMGs,

a single 81mm, a platoon headquarters, and sometimes one regular

squad under that platoon's command (with the rest transferred to a

higher HQ). An FO is a welcome addition, or a sniper. I tend not to

include guns with these, as they reposition differently. So, have as

many of these little groups as you have mortars - which should amount to

about half as many of them as you have infantry platoons.

What are the essentials there? Gun pinning HE first and foremost, of

course. Also high ammo ranged firepower to cover open ground areas

against infantry - and importantly, the ability to do so even while one

shooter is repositioning (so e.g. a single MG would not be enough). Also

command for rally. Also some fast mover to check routes ahead of the

slower teams - the simple one uses the sniper or HQ for that, the more

robust one sends the lone ordinary squad. The trailing movers are the FO,

mortar, and last MG (which covers the move until it is clear it will

succeed).

A heavy weapons group is always notionally tied to some of the advancing

regular infantry, and usually to a higher HQ or company-sized formation.

These are the squads whose movements it is to support and cover. A single

company typically has 2 of them in German practice. That lets one whole

group be moving while other is "working", so to speak.

The overall idea is to first put ordinary squad *eyes* on the next position

to be reached, then to set up the heavy *weapons* to cover that position from

range, and then and only then, to send the ordinary squad *bodies* to that

covered position. You need to plan ahead to "walk" your LOS through the

sequence of positions you intend to send men through, one "jump" ahead of

the men themselves.

The jumps are set by LOS blockages. Inside large LOS blockages, the

squad infantry takes care of itself. If such a large blockage is held

by enemy infantry, obviously you first shower them with HE, from FOs or

on map guns or tanks (*not* your precious mortar ammo - that is for

higher value targets than ordinary squads). The place squad infantry

needs help is when they might face infantry or MGs in cover, looking

into open ground ahead of that cover. Well, if the enemy can see into

that open ground, you can see across it yourself from the last body

of cover back. That is where the heavy weapons need to be, before the

movement is made. Then if the infantry draws fire, the heavy weapons

suppress the shooters, the moving infantry goes to ground, etc.

Main tanks support the scouting infantry the same way, except they don't

work from within a prior body of cover, they just peek around them (to

limit LOS from the enemy side of the field to small areas).

All this requires some prior planning as to the route the main body

will take. You pick at at set-up, typically, based on terrain analysis

and your best guess as to the enemy defense plan. You can revise it

once during the approach, based on info from your scouting - realistically

you can't expect to revise it more finely than that. So you should pick

an initial movement plan that is fairly robust, simple, adaptable.

Something like "wing attack up the left half of the map" is an example.

Or through the dead ground behind the first hill on the right, up onto

the ridge there, heavy weapons set up, then sweep around the right

end of that ridge with the maneuver force.

Terrain is usually broken up into natural "cells" of different sizes,

defined by limited LOS that lets people inside one cell see each other,

but not the rest of the field. These cells fit together like a jigsaw

puzzle, though it is true with some rough edges and overlap. Every

place on the field can be seen from somewhere, and the sets of those

visible areas usually overlap heavily in open areas and barely at all

in less open ones. E.g. the region between two treelines, visible from

both treelines and everything open in between (including a few patches of

small bits of cover) - that is one "cell". Or the area between two

ridges. Or one whole side of a hill.

The idea is to plan your movements in terms of such cells, achieving

"ownership" of one of them at a time, in the sense of firepower

dominance within it - because there aren't enemies there, or you

outnumber them so heavily within that cell, or there were but you

blew the heck out of all of them and nobody left alive can see into

said cell. Notionally, you can "stacking" forces into that "cell", taking

it thereby, and then "oozing" them into one or more of the adjacent

cells.

Heavy weapons positions are naturally along the cell joins, to look

into two of them, based on a short movement, typically within cover.

Those two can be steps the maneuvering forces plan to make in sequence -

the first they will reach, then the second - or they can be different

supported groups - the right front, then the left front. Whichever

way you arrange it, the idea is the heavy weapons are "overwatching"

one of the cells just prior to the maneuver push taking place within

it. If you aren't set up to support movements within a given cell

by fire, yet, then you don't push hard within that cell. (At least,

if you expect it to be defended at all). A few scouts may push

on ahead, but any main body of infantry or main battle tanks just

hold up and wait, in that sector, until the overwatch is in place.

The only exception to this is early no man's land stuff, or gambles

on surprise along an unexpected route later on. Some portions of the

map you just expect to be clear of defenders entirely, either because

they could not have set up there, or you have seen too many forces

elsewhere already to fear there is anything along a route there is

little reason for the enemy to expect you to have reached etc. In

those cases, you adopt "traveling" formation instead of "bounding

overwatch" - meaning you just cross them as rapidly as possible,

gambling that they are completely uncovered.

That is guesswork, but doing it well can speed up an approach march

or given a flanking movement speed and unexpected punch. When you

are wrong, obviously you will get a bloody nose instead of saving

time - that's combat.

That exception aside, normally you move the main body only after overwatch

is in place.

The next principle in that is what I like to call "shield and sword",

or the principle of ranked formations. The point is that the first

elements to contact the enemy will usually get messed up by defensive

fire, and either go to ground or take losses etc. They will need to move

to get to cover, which reduces their outgoing fire. Once in cover, they

need to rally and to fire back, which means they won't be doing any

razzling or dazzling. This all reduces to "the first wave will be

unable to maneuver after contact".

OK, so that simply won't be its job. Its job will be to shield the rest

of the force from the effects of enemy fire - by drawing it on themselves,

by being physically ahead of the rest of your own force and therefore

entering enemy LOS first, etc. The first wave is only a shield for the

rest of the force. It is not the sword - it is not expected to destroy

the enemy it contacts.

The sword is the rest of the formation. It follows that the main body

should not be up in the first wave, as a thin crust, but instead should

trail behind it. In a company, the first wave shield will be a single

platoon on "point", or at most two reduced platoons side by side (each

with a squad given up to the company HQ). The main body on the other

hand will be half to two thirds of the infantry, including the higher

HQ. And the tanks. And the FOs.

The main body "sword" behind the shield destroys the enemies pounding

on said shield. At first by advancing to LOS on a chosen axis - usually

not exactly the same as the shield, since it is taking fire and

"in the way" in cover use terms - and pouring in fire, and after that

by physically assaulting.

The interval between the first shots at the shield and the sword being

ready to fall, is used by the supporting heavy weapons to get into

position to cover the attack. They need LOS, from the platoon HQ and

HMGs and any FOs. The sword typically needs a few minutes to adapt

to the known enemy dispositions anyway.

Sometimes the heavy weapons can be dropped off by the sword force.

E.g. when the mortar is an SPW 251/2. Or you might have a radio FO

and HQ riding one tank, and 2 HMGs riding another. An SPW 251/1 can carry

a mortar and spotting HQ. In an infantry only attack, obviously you

have to go on foot instead. But the mortar only needs to reach a position

within command line distance of the spotter HQ, and the spotter HQ is

"fast" infantry. Frequently, you have some "shield" unit under fire

from the gun you want to deal with, so you know positions with LOS

to the enemy for the spotter HQ to run for. Since it was back with the

main body before that, it should be unsuppressed initially, and can

pick the most covered route, seeing where all the shooters are firing

at the "shield" force.

Sometimes e.g. waiting for an FO to count down to "firing", everyone

has to hold up a few minutes before the attack can get going again.

That is OK. Infantry in the shield force should "skulk" in the meantime.

That is a "squad leader" term meaning make a short rearward movement to

break LOS to the most dangerous enemy shooters. It can be supplemented

by smoke (or in CMAK, vehicle dust by reversing light armor etc).

The point is, nowhere is it written that on contact you must panic

and rush everyone up to firing positions immediately, to "save" the

men currently being shot at. You can break it off temporarily instead,

to set up a better engagement a few minutes later. Periods of apparently

lopsided enemy firing are less damaging than you might think, because

(1) many of your men are out of contact and thus perfectly safe (2) the

men being hit are frequently being "overkilled", at considerable cost in

enemy ammo or (3) only being "tickled" (in Guderian's sense), meaning put

into lower morale states from which they will fully recover in a few minutes.

All that matters is how many defenders were exchanged for the lost

attackers, *after* the set-up reply has been fully unleashed. Because the

ordinary sequence is for a defender unit to be effective when first revealing

itself, but then become ineffective as its position is known and a fully

articulated reply is visited upon it.

One complication in all of this is dealing with stealthy defending weapons.

By a stealthy weapon I mean one that can fire continually while remaining

a mere sound contact. Some stealthy weapons are not strong enough to inflict

appreciable harm - e.g. ATRs, LMGs, snipers, or MGs firing into cover - while

others can e.g. HMGs firing at men in the open, or medium or larger FOs, or

on map mortars firing indirect. The usual case is 2 or more HMGs covering

an open ground patch with enough fire to pin any infantry trying to cross it.

Well, that is where the light armor part of the solution applies, and the reason

just having the infantry go first is not always sufficient. Somebody has to

get close enough to get a full spot of the shooter, before reply fire can

become effective. If the shooter is an ATR, that can be infantry, no problem.

But when it is several HMGs and cover is scarce, infantry (even good infantry

using "advance" properly) will get seriously pinned trying it. It is much faster

to send a piece of light armor in these situations.

The idea is to drive a buttoned PSW or "radio car" to within 150m or so of the

suspected enemy position. Using available cover if possible, of course. If

the enemy HMGs continue to fire at your infantry, then the PSW will spot them,

and can begin the reply with its own MG. The rest of the overwatch chimes

in. If the HMGs go quiet to avoid the spot, on the other hand, then the pinned

infantry rallies in a minute or two and steps out again.

The defender's only escape from that dilemma is to escalate, revealing a weapon

that can kill the PSW. But early, the weapons can will do so are also unstealthy

enough that the overwatch should spot them, and trade them off in reply.

If it were a matter of squads moving across the whole map and PSWs occasionally

rushing ahead of them here or there, one could not expect there to be mortar

overwatch waiting, when a gun shows itself to KO one of the PSWs. But that is

not what an attack is. It is, instead, the planned dance through each "cell" of

the terrain described above. And a PSW is only going to charge out for a spot,

as a move up from the "sword" part of the formation, if and when a heavy weapons

group is already in position to see the cover ahead of the movement the infantry

is making.

No planned infantry movement, no need for the PSW to move out, because nothing

being held up. Held up in a different cell, no issue. The only case in which

the PSW spotter is wanted, the only case the infantry "shield" can't do for

itself, is when they are trying to move from one side of a LOS "cell" to the

other, but can't complete the movement because they take stealthy fire.

Well, the scout "shield" won't be attempting that without a main body "sword"

behind it, with heavy weapons group, as well as vehicles. The PSW won't

break cover to go get the spot until the overwatch is ready, because there

is no point in having a spot if you can't kill the thing spotted. When the

overwatch is ready, the PSW goes. So, when the PSW gets all blowed up, there

will be overwatch.

I will add one point about perfectionism in all of the above. You don't need everything to go perfectly, and in battle it won't. What you do need is for all of your units to work hard to get the match ups they are each good at - and for all of them to fight as hard as their morale and enemy firepower allows, throwing their available ammo at sensible targets they are good at hurting. If most of your units do this, even if you didn't get the right match up in one place or another, it will not matter. The defender can't withstand forever the full weight of an attack at attacker odds, if nearly all of the attackers hit as hard as they are able, at sensible targets. It doesn't matter if the match up soon after contact isn't the best, or on every part of the field. If most of your units at some point or another, whenever, "punch" their full "weight", then the defense will simply run out of living defenders.

None of the above happens automatically, of course. But that is the whole

planning process in which is does happen.

I hope this helps.

[ December 08, 2007, 02:03 PM: Message edited by: JasonC ]

JoMac · December 8, 2007

Hello Sanok,

Long-time no hear, hope you still rememeber me. If interested in doing some CMBB - PBEM games just post reply below, or email me at:

irishwop67@aol.

Joe

Kineas · December 9, 2007

JasonC, excellent post

Sanok · December 11, 2007

Originally posted by JasonC:
If you aren't set up to support movements within a given cell by fire, yet, then you don't push hard within that cell. (At least, if you expect it to be defended at all). A few scouts may push on ahead, but any main body of infantry or main battle tanks just hold up and wait, in that sector, until the overwatch is in place.

This is the problem I continually have. I can scout and advance, but once I get to the place where I know I've got to force my way into where the defender is, my problems begin. I've come to the conclusion, it's because I don't have enough overwatch in place. It just seems like it takes too long to get it where it needs to be. I also tend to be extremely overcautious with my tanks.

That exception aside, normally you move the main body only after overwatch is in place.

Same as above.

Your article was quite good, and some of it I already knew. The main theme I saw being emphasized, was overwatch. I simply need to get it in place sooner.

I still don't see how all of what you wrote can be fit into the turn limits of a quick battle or scenario. Perhaps I'm just too cautious and too deliberate.

JasonC · December 11, 2007

Well, I can go through normal timings and some of the tricks that speed things up, if it would help. Perhaps you might explain which steps seem to take too much time.

There are different cases for overwatch. Sometimes you can see the first likely defensive positions from the start line, and heavy weapons can start in their first overwatch positions without any movement at all. This is particularly common in small QBs with less than heavy cover, on the gentle slopes or flat hill settings.

At least as often, the first legal or sensible places for the defense to set up will not have LOS to the attacker's start zone across the entire frontage. Might in a few places, but not ones the attackers need to use. In those cases, the first advance is going to be made through dead ground, and can be done without elaborate bounding overwatch drills, using a simple "travelling" formation for the first five minutes or so.

A typical case is a hill crown somewhere near the map middle, so that the attackers can get closer behind it on at least one side, without drawing fire. Sometimes instead it is multiple tree lines of woods that can be interposed between likely defender locations and the moving main body, until up to the back of a last woods body shy of the defenders.

You also find the intermediate case, where you can get one treeline or so, but LOS lines angle in from the flanks to cover a field before the next, without that next being in the defender's set up zone. This usually means the defender can expect to delay, but not to stop, movement to that last body of cover. (Not to stop because he won't have enough firepower in place at close enough ranges etc).

Terrain analysis beforehand has to tell you which case applies. You should not be waiting to see where you take fire to figure this out for you, and you should be picking routes for the main body to grab ownership of undefendable no man's land as rapidly and cheaply as possible. Sometimes it helps to have flankers out assisting with this - by which I mean, a single platoon (perhaps reduced) off on a side of the map you don't intend to use for the main attack, but still want to grab early. As a side effect, this can make it somewhat harder for the defender to tell the main axis of attack.

The first five minutes are spent differently in the different cases. In the covered route cases, they are spent "travelling", usually using the "move to contact" command, and the leading infantry wave can cover up to 400 meters. Usually somewhat less, but enough to reach the LOS limits of no man's land.

Slow heavy weapons teams will trail in this case, but not by too much. They need to know it is this case and move immediately, with everyone else. HMGs ride tanks (Germans that is, Russians are transport class 3 so they can't, instead their 50mm mortars or ATRs can ride).

The main thing in this case is for the heavy weapons to move directly to the location they are going to want to fight from, and that they successfully avoid long range pinning fire. A slow mortar shot in the open will lose 5 extra minutes at best. And if you send them to a location that winds up unable to see any defenders, you can also lose 3-5 more minutes changing your mind. This comes down to good terrain analysis and attack planning, a good anticipation of where the defenders will try to stand, etc.

Towed guns can also be a problem in this case, lacking LOS from the start line. You can push a low transport class gun (e.g. leIG), but it is quite slow, with order delay at the start and set up time at the end, and only 25m per minute between (for transport class 4). You can only afford one such move, and you better be right about where you set up.

A force selection stage better solution, for all but the smallest or most open QBs, is to take 1-2 prime movers and shuttle the guns forward by vehicle, dropping them at the backside of cover. For the Germans, a single SPW 251/1 is the best answer here - it can pull sIGs and quad 20 Flak, or anything smaller, moves 81mms, has armor protection against long range MGs, and can fight itself late in the day.

For the Russians, I prefer the carrier. It is transport class 6, good enough for the typical Russian guns, and can move an MG. Armor sufficient to stop German HMG fire at range. Limited MG ammo itself though. The M3 scout car has a lot more potential MG firepower, but I find them brittle (the key being their side armor is not German HMG proof), and being wheeled they are no faster off road.

Another Russian option is the jeep - cheap and fast, but more vulnerable than the carrier. A downside is that the 82mm mortar doesn't fit in any of these, because of that dang 7th man (same is true of the company HQ) - those can only be moved by the US model halftrack (trucks don't count, worthless). The halftrack costs tons more than the carrier and is even less MG proof than the scout car. I prefer to take a carrier for guns and let the mortars walk.

If you don't have guns you do not need a prime mover. And you never need to buy one per item, that is too much spent on transport. The case you will want them is a dead ground start line with a significant move to first LOS, and in that case you can afford to shuttle. If the guns build up gradually, it is nobig deal, and the later ones are likely to have somewhat better choice of positions, as more will be known about the defense by the time they finish their final push-move.

HMGs dropped by tanks, and fast HQs spotting for mortars, should have no issue getting into position in a timely manner. Same for the tanks themselves, and items like the German SPW 251/2.

Infantry scouts may step out from the "first LOS" position before the full overwatch is in place. You want a shield in front anyway, and a half squad on "point". Limited OPs like a single LMG or split squads, should be readily overrun just by a scouting platoon. When you are hitting a full battle position and trying to move the main body, overwatch needs to be in place. But you don't have to wait for every last mortar to finish its set-up count-down to move off the first half-squad.

The other common case is scouting infantry gummed up by long ranged MG fire very early, like within the first five minutes. They get 100 yards and draw fire and their move to contacts start tripping, sending them to ground. A few maybe even sideways sneaking in "cover panic". That is the sign that an approach march is going to be slow.

You have to gauge at that point whether it is a full battle position firing at you, or just a few delaying MGs. Usually it is the cover state on your approach and on the enemy side of the map that tells you - sometimes, it is whether you are drawing towed gun fire already. If there is a lot of cover on your approach and the enemy had to sneak an obscure LOS line to see that field, it is just delay. If there is a nice big ridge with adequate cover all along it, it is probably a main fighting position. Not hard.

You deal with them somewhat differently. Delay MGs you basically want the squad infantry to bull ahead on "advance" on a wide front, lots pushing hard each minute. The enemy can delay a couple squads, at significant cost in ammo, but not stop fast infantry. The heavy weapons, however, cannot afford to step into open under fire. Nor can they fire back effectively, since you won't have spots yet.

You try to locate the shooters from who does and who doesn't get shot at, and find routes they can't see. You can risk light armor running forward for a spot, if the spotting location is keyholed enough at a deduced shooter area. Otherwise, you just have to hold up until advancing infantry gets close enough for a spot. The firing MG will be wasting its ammo the while, however, since it can't actually hurt anybody at such long range. You need a plan to move rapidly after spotting and silencing it. Obviously your overwatch should have LOS to its location, if you took fire so near the start line - at worst, you park a tank where a squad got shot.

But this is different from the main battle position, instant engagement case. If you are already under LOS of the whole enemy fighting position at the start, then reciprocally, your start line overwatch is already adequately positioned. You don't want to expose your tanks to that main position right away, though (might keyhole a piece of it I suppose). Instead you start FOs counting down and the ordinary infantry advances from cover to cover as best it can.

My experience is that it usually takes 10 minutes for the squad infantry to close up the no man's land area, if they took any kind of fire early. Occasionally this may stretch to turn 15, but it doesn't go longer than that. When I have "map fire" FO support, I generally call it for around minute 8 or so, with the idea that nobody is going to be ready for the main fight much earlier than that, and I want it falling during minute 10 (most modules have 3-4 minutes of shells).

By minute 15 I expect the main firefight to be well under way, with the ordinary infantry in cover just shy of the defender's set up locations, but with full spots to defenders opposite and firing themselves. Map fire FOs will be expended, on map ones will have their first missions already landing, though might have saved half for later. I expect the first guns to have shown themselves and gun-vehicle duels to have already occurred.

It doesn't take all that long after the main firefight starts, to resolve it. I mean, most units only have ammo for 5-10 minutes of all out fire anyway. Even with pauses due to sets of enemies being shot down, they are rarely going to have "ammo wind" past turn 25, unless specifically kept in reserve or otherwise husbanding ammo.

Once the main firefight starts, the defenders need to put up a new set of shooters regularly, or the attacking infantry continues to advance into them. A new set of shooters gets a good minute, a hard minute as they take replies, and a 2-3 minute tail as they deal with it or not. But five minutes after a shooter first shows himself, he usually is toast, or the whole attack has failed - one or the other. Every couple of minutes the defense needs to reach deeper into its bag of tricks, or the attacking infantry comes in another 100 yards and its firepower doubles.

Can the overwatch walk through the whole defense? That varies from defense set up to set up. You never want the overwatch heavy weapons to reposition more than once, after their first serious firefight, but you may indeed have to reposition them that once. When you have to, they can have 5 minutes of down time or more, and the whole fight can take 10 minutes longer than it would without any such repositioning. But this typically means a fight that would be over in 20 to 25 minutes, stretches instead to 30 to 35 - which most scenarios will give you.

Sometimes you simply don't need the overwatch to beat the last layer of the defense. I mean, once squad infantry is actually on the defender's initial positions, the defense itself is usually quite disarticulated, and its remaining pieces rarely support each other very well. You can frequently gang up on the holdouts on one side e.g. Defenses are at their most integrated at the first main battle position stage, and that is where you need overwatch the most.

Also, some of your overwatch stuff will be wholly expended after that bit of the fight, anyway. The foot mortars will often be out of HE, or down to 6 shells. Guns will frequently have been KOed in duels. Tanks will be reduced in number, a few left alive, and those low on HE, using their MGs more etc. Some of the HMGs will be broken, others jammed or low ammo. A few typically left with 30 ammo or so and out of visible targets, sometimes.

Well, if they threw it all at sensible targets they already punched their weight, and the defense is weaker by appropriate amounts. S'OK.

Robust weapons keep punching even at this stage. That includes deep HE ammo load items especially e.g. SPW 251/2 or for the Russians a living T-34 with scads of HE (US Sherman etc). MBTs that have hundreds of MG rounds are useful at this stage. Light armor that hung back until the enemy AT network was smashed can come out now and use its MGs.

The other thing that keeps the attack going at this later stage is just having asymmetric weapons will high kill potential, used along the way. That leaves remaining odds and ammo depth for the squad infantry and main tanks. The "payoff" for each specialist weapon that worked right earlier comes in a better morale, live numbers, and ammo state for the vanilla tank-infantry teams in the bottom third of the fight - because they didn't have to exchange off their opposite numbers in the defense, one to one or worse.

That includes the Me-109 strafes that got guns before they killed anything, and the flamm Pz IIs that waded into SMG platoons instead of sending infantry, and the IGs that blew apart whole villages instead of the panzers using up all their HE doing so, and the FO that twice let a friendly platoon wipe out its opposite number for a half of its ammo and few killed, instead of both sides ragged out and all ammo gone.

Better than even exchanges in the first half of the fight, are what make for speed in the second half of it. You go fast even with reduced strength late, only when and because the defense is collapsing due to accumulated losses. If you don't win the middle portion of the fight, the problem later isn't time, it is just not having the punching weight to continue. If the defense is on its last legs, you can push harder with vanilla infantry and the last scraps of armor, and it will just work.

I hope this helps. If there are specific places you find you typically don't make the above "timetable", please describe them.

Conte Malaspina · December 11, 2007

I recently had a problem similar to the one described by War Gecko with a scenario called "Hedgehog Hell". In it German mechanized arms (lacking mortars but with plenty of artillery) have to assault an entrenched Russian position with long fields of fire.

Playing as the Germans I've been trounced several times. I tried concentrating artillery on specific points but most of the Russian infantry and a few of their guns survived. I tried preparing a smoke screen and then assaulting with everything I had but was never able to gain the high ground and my advance soon ground to a halt.

It is the only scenario where I ever experienced several defeats in a row (against the AI).

Has anyone else tried it? Does anyone know how to defeat those hardy Russians on the hill, especially without having mortars or air support to pick off their guns as described above?

Thanks for your help!

enrico

JasonC · December 12, 2007

I suppose I should start by saying spoiler warning. But frankly I don't feel I am spoiling much. Since some here might, though, you are warned - I will be merciless in exposing this one's scripted secrets.

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It is a typical Rune exercise in scripted giantism. The German OOB is flawed, with all of the weapons the infantry actually used to deal with such positions removed from their toolkit, to force the German commander to rely instead of Rune's desired solution to the problem, aka what he imagines the fight to be. Which is an infantry knife-fight against numerous entrenched Russians, in open terrain.

The items missing are le IGs used for direct fire, on map 81mm mortars, and 81mm mortar halftracks. There is also no sign of the div arty - the Germans have 6 artillery modules but not a single 105 or tube 150 in the bunch. The German weapon halftracks are present but underrepresented (2 Stummels and 1 flame HT, plus one 75mm PSW with limited HE ammo).

If you try to attack with what starts on the map, you will lose and deserve to. The briefing makes clear what the actual intended mode of attack is - a pioneer company and StuG support. That means 10 foot flamethrower teams, 16 pioneer units with 32 demo charges, plus a flame Pz III - all meant to destroy men in trenches from point blank range - plus the StuGs.

In this era, the StuGs are invulnerable from the front, at least to stationary Russian ATGs, less than 57mm (which they don't have, here). The StuGs are the only robust direct fire HE weapons you are left with by Rune's weapon toolkit deletions, and only on map HE fired with direct fire precision has a chance against men in trenches.

The thin SPWs and PSW offer double HE depth, but can only be risked after the StuGs have KOed all remaining Russian guns. The AI will not know enough to not risk the guns against infantry, so they are readily located. This shows one of the problems here - the high road to victory for the Germans is a succession of "stupid AI tricks".

Opening sequence - infantry draws fire from Russian guns, StuGs show up, drive close while maintaining front facing, get spots, and KO said guns. Once the guns are KOed, infantry moves again, draws MG fire, StuGs and SPWs fire at each shooter. ATRs are a worry for the SPWs, which need to maintain front facing and stay 500m or so away. There are too many of them to KO them all, given the need for ammo to hit MGs instead.

All of the above is meant to draw the long range "teeth", while leaving the squads. The pioneers are supposed to get close and finish them.

There is a puzzle aspect of that, in that Rune has provided a clear highway in to the Russian position, provided the German player can read the map. This is the next sign of "scripting", aka the tendency of the scenario designer to sit in your chair and force you to play it his way, here.

There is a large body of scattered trees just to the right of the Russian trench system. Initially it is unoccupied, and it runs to within 20m or less of the trenches themselves. There is a low ground balka "seam" along the right edge of the map, leading toward this patch of wood, which much of the early part in low, dead ground. You are meant to send a company or more up that route, and get on the right flank of the trench system. And to shuttle in pioneers to those woods.

Meanwhile there is also a tailor-made patch of brush with a lip of crest, below the height of the Russian trench system but with safe dead ground on your side of it. You can crawl or advance up into LOS in that brush. This gives HMGs and such a place to set up. You can also deliberately draw fire from there to reveal enemy MGs and such, once StuGs are close enough to get spots on the shooters.

The Russians are prepared along two axes - the wheatfield, which seems to offer the only route with continuous cover getting close, but is in fact mined and in view of all the Russian anti-infantry weapons and registered for their mortars etc. It is their planned kill zone. And the hill to the Russian left, which has better 25% cover, though at long range, and a small flag. There is only one use of that - a stupid AI trick again - but Rune has scripted that approach to receive a "surprise" later in the scenario (the Russian reinforcements will take any such approach in flank).

There are two other major considerations. One concerns the German artillery mix, which is pretty ineffective against trenches. You get 2 150mm rocket FOs, which given their propensity to miss widely, have to be used relatively early in map fire fashion. The best idea is to fire the first in the first 5 minutes and the second a few minutes after the first. This will at least slightly suppress the Russian MGs during the approach march, and might get lucky on a gun or two.

The only other serious FO you have is a single vet 120mm mortar. You have to save it for a concentrated HE blast when fully engaged - you can't afford to fire it as "prep". Infantry lines should be in contact, and it should used to help them gain fire ascendancy.

But you also get 1 81mm and 2 75mm FOs. These are in place of the missing on map 81s and 75 leIGs the Germans would actually use to hit specific trenches. Instead, Rune has decided for you that they shall be useless for that, which leaves only one real use for them. They must smoke the Russian trench system at critical times, especially to allow pioneers to enter portions of the Russian trench system. You might even consider using the 120s for this as well, since indirect HE is so ineffective against trenches.

There are two other surprises in the scenario. The Russians eventually get armor, giving your StuGs something else to worry about besides the Russian trench system. Your StuGs must have KOed all Russian guns before those appear, or they will be vulnerable to multiple angles and thus flanking shots. If they can face the Russian armor when it arrives, they can toast it - particularly AI led.

You will also get air support while that is happening, more dramatic stage direction from Rune. You are not meant to do anything with this, except ooh and aah I suppose. The timing means they will not help much vs the guns and trenches, but will instead engage some of the Russian armor.

Late, you get more StuGs to replace those you may well have lost facing the Russian armor. Assuming you win the armor war - at the latest, soon after the second lot of StuGs appear - you then bring out all remaining AFVs to help reduce the Russian trenches. Your own infantry might get shot up considerably if you are too exposed when the Russian tanks appear, and don't deal with them quickly. Same for the SPWs etc. More puzzle scripting.

The last aspect of the scenario and in my opinion the least justifiable, is the presence of several flags well outside the Russian trench system. Including one large one. Because of these, and because of the value of torching the Russian armor, you can win this scenario without ever taking the Russian trench system, if your own losses are well enough controlled. So far, so reasonable.

The less reasonable bit is the stupid AI trick that consists in capturing the large outside flag with a StuG or two, and then waiting for Russians to come running off their hill and out of their magnificant position, trying to get the blasted thing back. Which lets your HMGs chop them to ribbons. Just be sure to shorten your arcs and let them get oh about half way, and fully committed, before you cut them to ribbons. The stupiest possible stupid AI trick, that.

Personally, this sort of thing is not my cup of tea. I dislike being forced by the scenario designer to use his tactics instead of mine, by simply not being given half the proper tools for the job. And by the anti-thematic Russian armor intervention, the Signal magazine Luftwaffe commercial to partially counter that, etc. I also don't like the scale - it is about 3 times the size CM handles best.

Last, the Russian defense layout is uninspired, to put it charitably. In human hands, no problem - they can correct it - well, if they have about 6 hours to set up properly. In AI hands, it compounds the stupid AI opportunities.

There is no reason to lose this one, but even winning it should feel cheap, considering how much you will have to lean on the AI's specific stupidies to do so.

z-warfare · December 12, 2007

Originally posted by Conte Malaspina:
I recently had a problem similar to the one described by War Gecko with a scenario called "Hedgehog Hell".
enrico

Hi, I just checked the proving grounds and the scenario depot, but couldn't find 'Hedgehog Hell'. Where can I download it?

Philippe · December 12, 2007

There's a scenario called Hedgehog Hell that takes place during the summer of 1943. You can find it in the corresponding zip file of the Sorted Scenarios in the CMBB section of CMMODS.

JasonC · December 12, 2007

You can also find it at Boots and Tracks, I believe...

Conte Malaspina · December 12, 2007

Thanks JasonC,

now that I understand "Hedgehog Hell" is mostly an artificial scenario where you essentially need to know the "tricks of the trade" to win, I won't bang my head against the wall anymore! But I guess I'll try it again nonetheless. It's a question of personal pride now!

The few times I've played it I never even reached the point when Russian armor comes into play (or probably I wasn't able to spot it)! It was all so frustrating much before that. I guess I'll have to protect my light armor, move out the infantry to spot those guns and MGs, use my StuGs carefully, wait for the pioneers to arrive, send them on that flanking move and use my artillery as you suggested.

I'm not much of an expert when it comes to WWII OOBs, weaponry and such, but I had the feeling there was something missing here. I usually trust scenario designers with such a reputation in the community.

Thankfully there are designers like you who do not trick the "average Joe" player as I am with gamey devices.

Thanks again

enrico

PS the scenario is here if anyone wants a bloody nose playing as the Germans:

http://bootsandtracks.com/ScenarioDetail.php?ScenarioID=57

JasonC · December 12, 2007

Oh if you put the time in - to play it twice, typically - you will still have a fun time playing it. Rune knows his art, and is among the best "movie directors" of scripted or "puzzle-like" scenarios. By a scripted scenario or puzzle-like scenario, I mean one where the designer created a specific solution while locking off some potential alternatives. Some people really like that sort of thing. And Rune has a high sense of drama about them - he gets his intended "Jesu Christos, what next?" reactions (lol). And people replay them to solve them the second time through, having seen the difficulties the hard way, the first time through.

In this specific case, Rune clearly had a definite sense of what the long mop up fights by the infantry components of panzer divisions during Kursk, looked like. He wanted to show case a particular German subsystem, the pioneer company in assault on a fort. He arranged everything else to make that the centerpiece - and then in typical movie director fashion, he threw in a plot-twist Russian tank counterattack in the middle of it.

When I say it isn't my cup of tea, I don't intend to say it isn't anyone's. I know I am unusual in the degree of tactical control and planning I want in a scenario. I want to be given the mission and the whole toolbox, and to apply my own knowledge of which tool can accomplish which job to get there. I wouldn't use a lot of foot FTs and DCs to take out a trench-fort in open steppe.

As for how do-able it is, if you make some of the AI infantry leave their fortifications with armor flag grabbing, it can be arbitrarily easy (especially when you know the armor is coming and from where etc).

Another AI weakness readily exploited in this sort of open steppe infanty defense fight, is its lack of fire discipline. By which I mean, it will fire squad infantry at targets in the open, even at range or when they can rally, and down to low levels of remaining ammo. You do have to deal with the Maxim MGs with your armor, because those have 15 solid minutes of fire, ammo-wise. But the squads do not.

So e.g. if you get a company of the Panzergrenadiers in those woods, and feed in the pioneers there after them - with the HMGs out at the brush-lined crest - and then advance the other two companies, 2 platoons at a time, at range - well, the movers will draw fire. Go to ground and rally, while sending another pair. They will draw fire too. Repeat three time, then reuse the first pair.

You will suck gobs of their ammo away, without your actual attack infantry getting hurt. Now send the Pz III flame to the edge of the trenches and torch them in one area. Now smoke that area. Now feed in pioneers from the woods.

You should then be rolling up the trenches with trench cover yourself, and the Russian infantry low on ammo. Overwatched by the squad LMGs in the woods company and the HMGs. The last set of StuGs have HE ammo again, and can help break rallying MGs and such. Time can still be a factor, certainly. But it isn't nearly as hard as you might think early on, because (1) their guns and MGs will be dead or broken by then and (2) their squad infantry will be low on ammo, lots of places.

Don't try to run them off their feet in one go, in other words. Outlast them, and beat low ammo Russian squads with fresh pioneers, late.

Sanok · December 14, 2007

Jason, it just comes down to me not being able to get my overwatch set up properly, as well as being able to properly assess a good attack route on the map. I'm playing a QB now where I've done some things from your articles, and am doing better. I just need to be more patient, and keep practicing. Thanks.

Originally posted by JasonC:
Well, I can go through normal timings and some of the tricks that speed things up, if it would help. Perhaps you might explain which steps seem to take too much time.

There are different cases for overwatch. Sometimes you can see the first likely defensive positions from the start line, and heavy weapons can start in their first overwatch positions without any movement at all. This is particularly common in small QBs with less than heavy cover, on the gentle slopes or flat hill settings.

At least as often, the first legal or sensible places for the defense to set up will not have LOS to the attacker's start zone across the entire frontage. Might in a few places, but not ones the attackers need to use. In those cases, the first advance is going to be made through dead ground, and can be done without elaborate bounding overwatch drills, using a simple "travelling" formation for the first five minutes or so.

A typical case is a hill crown somewhere near the map middle, so that the attackers can get closer behind it on at least one side, without drawing fire. Sometimes instead it is multiple tree lines of woods that can be interposed between likely defender locations and the moving main body, until up to the back of a last woods body shy of the defenders.

You also find the intermediate case, where you can get one treeline or so, but LOS lines angle in from the flanks to cover a field before the next, without that next being in the defender's set up zone. This usually means the defender can expect to delay, but not to stop, movement to that last body of cover. (Not to stop because he won't have enough firepower in place at close enough ranges etc).

Terrain analysis beforehand has to tell you which case applies. You should not be waiting to see where you take fire to figure this out for you, and you should be picking routes for the main body to grab ownership of undefendable no man's land as rapidly and cheaply as possible. Sometimes it helps to have flankers out assisting with this - by which I mean, a single platoon (perhaps reduced) off on a side of the map you don't intend to use for the main attack, but still want to grab early. As a side effect, this can make it somewhat harder for the defender to tell the main axis of attack.

The first five minutes are spent differently in the different cases. In the covered route cases, they are spent "travelling", usually using the "move to contact" command, and the leading infantry wave can cover up to 400 meters. Usually somewhat less, but enough to reach the LOS limits of no man's land.

Slow heavy weapons teams will trail in this case, but not by too much. They need to know it is this case and move immediately, with everyone else. HMGs ride tanks (Germans that is, Russians are transport class 3 so they can't, instead their 50mm mortars or ATRs can ride).

The main thing in this case is for the heavy weapons to move directly to the location they are going to want to fight from, and that they successfully avoid long range pinning fire. A slow mortar shot in the open will lose 5 extra minutes at best. And if you send them to a location that winds up unable to see any defenders, you can also lose 3-5 more minutes changing your mind. This comes down to good terrain analysis and attack planning, a good anticipation of where the defenders will try to stand, etc.

Towed guns can also be a problem in this case, lacking LOS from the start line. You can push a low transport class gun (e.g. leIG), but it is quite slow, with order delay at the start and set up time at the end, and only 25m per minute between (for transport class 4). You can only afford one such move, and you better be right about where you set up.

A force selection stage better solution, for all but the smallest or most open QBs, is to take 1-2 prime movers and shuttle the guns forward by vehicle, dropping them at the backside of cover. For the Germans, a single SPW 251/1 is the best answer here - it can pull sIGs and quad 20 Flak, or anything smaller, moves 81mms, has armor protection against long range MGs, and can fight itself late in the day.

For the Russians, I prefer the carrier. It is transport class 6, good enough for the typical Russian guns, and can move an MG. Armor sufficient to stop German HMG fire at range. Limited MG ammo itself though. The M3 scout car has a lot more potential MG firepower, but I find them brittle (the key being their side armor is not German HMG proof), and being wheeled they are no faster off road.

Another Russian option is the jeep - cheap and fast, but more vulnerable than the carrier. A downside is that the 82mm mortar doesn't fit in any of these, because of that dang 7th man (same is true of the company HQ) - those can only be moved by the US model halftrack (trucks don't count, worthless). The halftrack costs tons more than the carrier and is even less MG proof than the scout car. I prefer to take a carrier for guns and let the mortars walk.

If you don't have guns you do not need a prime mover. And you never need to buy one per item, that is too much spent on transport. The case you will want them is a dead ground start line with a significant move to first LOS, and in that case you can afford to shuttle. If the guns build up gradually, it is nobig deal, and the later ones are likely to have somewhat better choice of positions, as more will be known about the defense by the time they finish their final push-move.

HMGs dropped by tanks, and fast HQs spotting for mortars, should have no issue getting into position in a timely manner. Same for the tanks themselves, and items like the German SPW 251/2.

Infantry scouts may step out from the "first LOS" position before the full overwatch is in place. You want a shield in front anyway, and a half squad on "point". Limited OPs like a single LMG or split squads, should be readily overrun just by a scouting platoon. When you are hitting a full battle position and trying to move the main body, overwatch needs to be in place. But you don't have to wait for every last mortar to finish its set-up count-down to move off the first half-squad.

The other common case is scouting infantry gummed up by long ranged MG fire very early, like within the first five minutes. They get 100 yards and draw fire and their move to contacts start tripping, sending them to ground. A few maybe even sideways sneaking in "cover panic". That is the sign that an approach march is going to be slow.

You have to gauge at that point whether it is a full battle position firing at you, or just a few delaying MGs. Usually it is the cover state on your approach and on the enemy side of the map that tells you - sometimes, it is whether you are drawing towed gun fire already. If there is a lot of cover on your approach and the enemy had to sneak an obscure LOS line to see that field, it is just delay. If there is a nice big ridge with adequate cover all along it, it is probably a main fighting position. Not hard.

You deal with them somewhat differently. Delay MGs you basically want the squad infantry to bull ahead on "advance" on a wide front, lots pushing hard each minute. The enemy can delay a couple squads, at significant cost in ammo, but not stop fast infantry. The heavy weapons, however, cannot afford to step into open under fire. Nor can they fire back effectively, since you won't have spots yet.

You try to locate the shooters from who does and who doesn't get shot at, and find routes they can't see. You can risk light armor running forward for a spot, if the spotting location is keyholed enough at a deduced shooter area. Otherwise, you just have to hold up until advancing infantry gets close enough for a spot. The firing MG will be wasting its ammo the while, however, since it can't actually hurt anybody at such long range. You need a plan to move rapidly after spotting and silencing it. Obviously your overwatch should have LOS to its location, if you took fire so near the start line - at worst, you park a tank where a squad got shot.

But this is different from the main battle position, instant engagement case. If you are already under LOS of the whole enemy fighting position at the start, then reciprocally, your start line overwatch is already adequately positioned. You don't want to expose your tanks to that main position right away, though (might keyhole a piece of it I suppose). Instead you start FOs counting down and the ordinary infantry advances from cover to cover as best it can.

My experience is that it usually takes 10 minutes for the squad infantry to close up the no man's land area, if they took any kind of fire early. Occasionally this may stretch to turn 15, but it doesn't go longer than that. When I have "map fire" FO support, I generally call it for around minute 8 or so, with the idea that nobody is going to be ready for the main fight much earlier than that, and I want it falling during minute 10 (most modules have 3-4 minutes of shells).

By minute 15 I expect the main firefight to be well under way, with the ordinary infantry in cover just shy of the defender's set up locations, but with full spots to defenders opposite and firing themselves. Map fire FOs will be expended, on map ones will have their first missions already landing, though might have saved half for later. I expect the first guns to have shown themselves and gun-vehicle duels to have already occurred.

It doesn't take all that long after the main firefight starts, to resolve it. I mean, most units only have ammo for 5-10 minutes of all out fire anyway. Even with pauses due to sets of enemies being shot down, they are rarely going to have "ammo wind" past turn 25, unless specifically kept in reserve or otherwise husbanding ammo.

Once the main firefight starts, the defenders need to put up a new set of shooters regularly, or the attacking infantry continues to advance into them. A new set of shooters gets a good minute, a hard minute as they take replies, and a 2-3 minute tail as they deal with it or not. But five minutes after a shooter first shows himself, he usually is toast, or the whole attack has failed - one or the other. Every couple of minutes the defense needs to reach deeper into its bag of tricks, or the attacking infantry comes in another 100 yards and its firepower doubles.

Can the overwatch walk through the whole defense? That varies from defense set up to set up. You never want the overwatch heavy weapons to reposition more than once, after their first serious firefight, but you may indeed have to reposition them that once. When you have to, they can have 5 minutes of down time or more, and the whole fight can take 10 minutes longer than it would without any such repositioning. But this typically means a fight that would be over in 20 to 25 minutes, stretches instead to 30 to 35 - which most scenarios will give you.

Sometimes you simply don't need the overwatch to beat the last layer of the defense. I mean, once squad infantry is actually on the defender's initial positions, the defense itself is usually quite disarticulated, and its remaining pieces rarely support each other very well. You can frequently gang up on the holdouts on one side e.g. Defenses are at their most integrated at the first main battle position stage, and that is where you need overwatch the most.

Also, some of your overwatch stuff will be wholly expended after that bit of the fight, anyway. The foot mortars will often be out of HE, or down to 6 shells. Guns will frequently have been KOed in duels. Tanks will be reduced in number, a few left alive, and those low on HE, using their MGs more etc. Some of the HMGs will be broken, others jammed or low ammo. A few typically left with 30 ammo or so and out of visible targets, sometimes.

Well, if they threw it all at sensible targets they already punched their weight, and the defense is weaker by appropriate amounts. S'OK.

Robust weapons keep punching even at this stage. That includes deep HE ammo load items especially e.g. SPW 251/2 or for the Russians a living T-34 with scads of HE (US Sherman etc). MBTs that have hundreds of MG rounds are useful at this stage. Light armor that hung back until the enemy AT network was smashed can come out now and use its MGs.

The other thing that keeps the attack going at this later stage is just having asymmetric weapons will high kill potential, used along the way. That leaves remaining odds and ammo depth for the squad infantry and main tanks. The "payoff" for each specialist weapon that worked right earlier comes in a better morale, live numbers, and ammo state for the vanilla tank-infantry teams in the bottom third of the fight - because they didn't have to exchange off their opposite numbers in the defense, one to one or worse.

That includes the Me-109 strafes that got guns before they killed anything, and the flamm Pz IIs that waded into SMG platoons instead of sending infantry, and the IGs that blew apart whole villages instead of the panzers using up all their HE doing so, and the FO that twice let a friendly platoon wipe out its opposite number for a half of its ammo and few killed, instead of both sides ragged out and all ammo gone.

Better than even exchanges in the first half of the fight, are what make for speed in the second half of it. You go fast even with reduced strength late, only when and because the defense is collapsing due to accumulated losses. If you don't win the middle portion of the fight, the problem later isn't time, it is just not having the punching weight to continue. If the defense is on its last legs, you can push harder with vanilla infantry and the last scraps of armor, and it will just work.

I hope this helps. If there are specific places you find you typically don't make the above "timetable", please describe them.

JasonC · December 16, 2007

Fair enough, hope it was helpful.

I decided to run a game against the AI showing how to tackle this sort of defense, using 1941 German forces. Naturally, as with any game against the AI, it shows only what it shows.

The setting is August 1941, central area, with terrain set to village, moderate woods, moderate hills. It is a 400 point German attack, and they get Panzer division combined arms against a Russian infantry division infantry force type. The German quality is unrestricted, Russians medium, and rariety is off. I pick forces for both sides, then command the Germans.

The Russians have a bog-standard gun and MG supported infantry defense, consisting of 2 platoons of 1941 pattern infantry, 2 76mm USV guns, 2 Maxim MMGs and 1 DP LMG with the leftovers. All are medium quality. Note this gives the Russians 8 squads and over 100 infantry and MG force combined. The idea is for the full power guns to stop German armor, and then for the infantry to just be too numerous for the Germans to take out, defending in cover etc.

The Germans decide to tackle this by relying on a single veteran SPW 251/2 for gun suppression mortar fire, with a couple of MG only PSWs (radio cars) to help find guns. For the rest they have 2 platoons of veteran Panzer rifle (which also ge 2 50mm mortars, organic), and 2 tanks to kill Russian infantry if the guns can be stopped - a Panzer III H and a Panzer II Flamm. They also take 2 HMG 34 teams.

At set up, there is a covered approach through woods on the left, and a fairly bald hill on the German right. The hill on the right has decent LOS into the village and the woods positions beyond it, and off on its right side there are some trees that provide full defilade. The SPW 251/2 goes there behind the trees, with one of the 2 platoon HQs out on the ridge, in a single patch of scattered trees, to spot for it. One of the HMG teams turned out "green", and it goes on that ridge too, in a small house. Last, one squad from the spotting HQ goes on the right side, split, to scout forward there.

Everyone else goes on the German left. The infantry will lead, with a split squad in front. The 2 50mm mortars trail here, to give the other HQ ability to spot for mortar fire as well. The other HMG initially starts aboard the Pz II, but soon is dropped off at the forward corner of a wood on the German left, to overwatch from that side - it does not move for the rest of the game.

The two squads from the SPW spotter HQ trail the led platoon as free floating infantry - they are the reserve. Eventually then wind up taking the left flank of the German advance.

The armor all waits behind the trees the infantry are advancing through. The PSWs are on a road, ready to go first, while the Panzers proper are behind them, initially off road.

The initial movements draw some long range Maxim fire, but it does little to veterans exposed only temporarily in scraps of open between bodies of trees. By turn 7 the Russians have show both Maxims and then show their first gun, which opens up trying to hit a 50mm mortar briefly seen. The mortar survives and gets into cover.

First gun spotted, turn 7 of the advance

The infantry pushes forward a bit in spots, while those directly "under the gun" go to ground. The 50mms set up and fire back. Initially the SPW has to fire at an aim point 3m left of the gun, because the spotting HQ doesn't have direct LOS (the gun is behind a house, to some extent). The HQ moves left and the SPW does as well, the following turn, to get a better bead on the gun.

Next, one of the PSWs makes a run up the road to get LOS to one of the Maxims, located in woods just through the village, and currently holding up the infantry. The idea is to put a suppressing MG on that MG at close range - both foot MG teams are also firing at it. If the move draws fire from the second gun, that'd be fine, since we want to know where both of them are.

PSW makes a run forward to get LOS to an MG position, turn 9

The first gun is KOed by mortar fire, with the crew seen to run back from the position.

The 2 50mm mortars fire a minute at that MG as well, and it is soon suppressed and turns back into a flag (a sign they hit "pinned" morale). A single foot MG continually "area fire"s at the flag, to slow or prevent rally, and the mortars cease fire with 14 and 12 rounds left, respectively.

As the first gun and center MG get suppressed, the German infantry are able to step out again. They draw new shooters, including a squad on the right front pretty close. That one gets 81mm fire from the SPW - a nice thing about its deep ammo load is that some can be spared for this. It works and sends that squad packing, after a good treeburst.

As the German infantry pushes forward into the village, the second gun reveals itself just beyond the suppressed center MG. It cuts a German squad in half and is threatening another in a house in the village.

Second gun spotted, turn 14, and all mortars fire at it

All mortars fire at the second gun. Even a few squads the first minute, trying to suppress it rapidly. The German armor is now much freer to move, as they no longer fear significant additional AT shooters. They use houses in the village and the woods the second gun is in, to block the second gun. The Pz II in particular is able to advance on the left, and burn out the suppressed MG.

The SPW loses sight to the gun for a spell, after the gun blows down a house in the village, cutting a second German squad in half in the process. The dust blocks the spotting HQ's line of sight for 2 minutes. But when it clears, the SPW resumes firing, and pours it on for 3 more minutes. The gun is not heard from again, and the Panzer II finds it already KOed when it noses close through the trees.

Meanwhile the infantry firefight continues in the village, with more and more Russians showing themselves. The German infantry goes completely stationary and just fires back, while the armor comes up to help. The PSWs are soon dry, but do help some. The Pz III on the other hand is bottomless, and alternates between emptying houses by hitting them with HE, and hosing running infantry in the open with both MGs.

All guns dead, PSWs out of ammo, but Flamm Pz and Pz III advance

Only one position remains fighting for the Russians - on their right where the first gun was, the second Maxim is still in action, and some squad infantry around it support it. They interdict German infantry movements in the center, though without hurting many men.

The Panzer II charges them, while the PSW smokes the Maxim to keep it from hitting German infantry in the meantime. The flame panzer makes short work of three successive infantry positions at 25 meter range, while the Pz III backs it up about 75 meters out, shooting anyone close enough to threaten to close assault the Pz II.

Game end, the high scorer is the Pz II Flamm with 44 infantry kills

In the end, the Russians surrender on the last (25th) turn. The Germans have lost 13 infantry, no vehicles. The Russian force has been annihilated, with the Pz II alone accounting for 44 infantry.

Notice that the German armor was only truly "free" to rampage in the bottom third of the game. But it was quite sufficient. The infantry needed around 10 minutes to get in close anyway.

A human would not have exposed his guns so easily, and the PSWs might have had to risk themselves significantly more to draw their fire, and one or both would probably have been lost in the process. On the other hand, the best of the two guns accounted for more than half of the German infantry losses, and would not have managed this if it had spent its few turns of fire trying to hit a fast PSW.

I think it shows, at least, how the mortars and armor are supposed to work together, and the way the freed-up armor saves the German infantry from needing to tangle with their Russian counterparts on even, "brawler" terms.

December 17, 2007

deleted per user request

JasonC · December 17, 2007

If he ignores the PSWs, you get spots and silence the MGs, by fire or by them voluntarily shutting up. Then the attacking infantry just continues to advance. If his MGs (or guns) never stop the infantry, then the PSWs have done their job. The infantry gets into cover within full spot range of the whole defensive position, such that anyone who opens up will be hit by very high, close in infantry firepower.

Then you are just sending a half squad forward, with your entire "kit" overwatching from perfect ranges, and with full firepower coordination. If you can't pick the defense apart with that, you didn't have attack odds or superior firepower to start with, and something is wrong.

If he hasn't shown a single gun and his MGs did little, then it is just a matter of destroying each position as infantry scouts into it. Which is what all your HE chuckers and FOs are for, along with your infantry FP of course. His defense, by construction, hasn't eliminated any of that, in your hypothetical.

If nothing whatever has helped his infantry and you have discovered the first infantry position, you think it is a problem to be able to plaster that position? Why would it be? Take the force I just used, a very modest one in a very small fight. To deal with a discovered infantry platoon, there are (1) an FT tank if no guns cover the approach (2) 5 vehicle MGs and one tank main gun likewise (3) 2 foot HMGs and (4) 81mm on map with some ammo to spare for it.

If instead you are worried about all the defending infantry being in literal trenches, then yeah you want some direct HE firepower, more than MG firepower. If the terrain is going to be open enough that is what you think you need to counter, then take 2 leIGs and a Kubelwagen. That is enough 75mm HE to plaster an entire company worth of trenches at a minute of fire each, for less than 70 points.

In the fight described above, I took a Pz II flamm instead, expecting to run riot with it after dealing with the defending guns.

A better defenders answer, later in the war, is to have an ATR network and ping any scouting light armor with those, without revealing major ATGs. Those are stealthy enough and light enough armor is vulnerable to them - although it can take a while to accumulate the penetrations needed to actually get kills etc. But you have the ammo and stealth typically gives the time for it.

That doesn't work early in 1941, though, because the things just aren't out yet. Also, the specific question was how to beat a Russian defense that spends as much as possible on just best ATGs, MMGs, and infantry. (Later, the Germans have AFV options that can deal with 76mm ATGs asymmetrically, too. Meaning thick enough to stand in front of them).

Tactics for defeating Soviet AT gun defense.

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