why did this game end?

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

A friend and I were playing an infantry only meeting engagement on a map that I designed. I grabbed two of the three flags but suffered serious casualties which pretty much left me in a defensive position. I declared a cease fire, but my opponent didn't and the game went on.

Several turns later, the game "was fought to its conclusion" even though he didn't declare a cease fire. We were 20 turns away from the variable turn ending that we set. Both of our moral was in the 60% range. He seemed to have a decent amount of ammo left, several units with half ammo and a handful with almost all of their ammo left.

I find it very puzzling (and he found it very frustrating since he had designs on my remaining flags) that the game ended this way. I'll be glad to offer the PBEM turn to anyone who wants to look at it in detail.

Any suggestions about why this game might have ended itself?

Thanks,

Dr. Rosenrosen

[SirReal]

Originally posted by Dr. Rosenrosen:

Any suggestions about why this game might have ended itself?

Auto ceasefire? If he's sustained heavy casualties too, I think that can happen.

/SirReal

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

Originally posted by SirReal:

If he's sustained heavy casualties too, I think that can happen.

/SirReal

Thanks for your response, but that doesn't seem likely. His casualties were not overwhelming and he still had some offensive momentum going on. I would think that the morale would be lower if his casualties were really severe enough to cause an auto cease fire.

Dr. Rosenrosen

[Elmar Bijlsma]

One or both of you don't happen to be low on ammo? If one side is nearly out of ammo, the auto ceasfire kicks in too.

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

Originally posted by Tweety:

One or both of you don't happen to be low on ammo? If one side is nearly out of ammo, the auto ceasfire kicks in too.

Nope. Obviously lots of ammo has been used, but there are still squads with decent ammo on both sides. That's what prompted me to write. I thought that the only things that could lead to autoceasefire was 1) low morale or 2) low ammo. Since neither of these seemed to apply, I was wondering whether there was something else that I was missing, or whether the game is behaving in an unexpected way.

Any other tips?

Dr. Rosenrosen

[MAsta_KFC]

Actually I've had that happen to me quite a few times. Seems to happen more if both your artillery and support units are low/empty ammo, despite squads hardly touching them.

I remember a battle once where my strategy was to pound the enmy with all my HE/Arty before moving in for the kill. To my dismay, after the squads traded a few shots, the auto cease kicked in. Had the course of the battle continued, I'm sure I would have won.

Maybe the auto cease fire is dependant on percentage of total force with little or no ammo. Since artillery can take a large proportion of points and you fire all your shots, then according to the calculation, something like 25% of your force is out of ammo. That, combined with say another 15-20% from support on low ammo and technically almost half your men are out of ammo. Just a theory...

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by MAsta_KFC:

Maybe the auto cease fire is dependant on percentage of total force with little or no ammo. Since artillery can take a large proportion of points and you fire all your shots, then according to the calculation, something like 25% of your force is out of ammo. That, combined with say another 15-20% from support on low ammo and technically almost half your men are out of ammo. Just a theory...

Interesting theory, Masta. If true, then the thing I naturally wonder (given my predilictions) is how realistic that is. My initial reaction was "No!" Since as you say, your squads had the upper hand at that point and could have taken the objective. The artillery had done its work successfully and was no longer needed. And it might be worthwhile for BFC to ponder that argument.

But there may be another side that needs to be weighed as well. Look at this battle in a presumed larger context. Other things are happening off the map that can influence what could happen on the map. Suppose there were enemy reinforcements on the way. Without artillery support, would you have been able to resist them? Or would they have driven you off the objective?

This is all hypothetical. Until we know more about the reason for the auto-ceasefire we are only guessing. But it does raise interesting conceptual questions.

Michael

[ August 05, 2003, 09:36 AM: Message edited by: Michael Emrys ]

[YankeeDog]

The other issue to look at the kind of battle you were playing.

IIRC, the auto-ceasefire trigger for battles, both in terms of morale and ammo, varies depending on whether you are playing a Meeting Engagement, a Probe, Attack, or Assault. 60% Morale still sounds awfully high to me for anything but maybe a Probe, though, and you were playing a Meeting Engagement. The high-point support unit ammo theory sounds more likely to me in your specific situation.

I also think I remember hearing somewhere that Partisans auto-ceasefire at a higher morale state than other force types, so if Partisans were involved that could be a factor.

Cheers,

YD

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by YankeeDog:

I also think I remember hearing somewhere that Partisans auto-ceasefire at a higher morale state...

Now that's interesting to know.

Michael

[YankeeDog]

Yeah. I'm working completely off memory here because I don't feel like sifting through every posting from one of the BFC guys with the word "Partisan" in it to find the orignal statement, but IIRC the idea is that since Partisans are more of an irregular 'hit and fade' force, they're more likely to just fade back into the surrounding communities and countryside.

Cheers,

YD

[Michael Emrys]

That's cool! I totally approve.

Michael

[Dook]

I just spent more time than I should have searching the forum for threads discussing a higher incidence of auto ceasefire for partisans and found nothing. One of the threads discussing the high incidence of auto ceasefires mentions that several of the games involved partisans, but there was no conclusive evidence or confirmation from BFC indicating that games with partisans have more auto ceasefires.

This doesn't mean it's not true, just that I couldn't find it. It would make sense if it is true though.

[PatAWilson]

I have had this feature ruin several games. I say ruin because it seemed to me that my troops were in good shape and on the verge of winning.

The worst case happening last night. It was turn 20 out of 45+. It was a very difficult attack, approaching over largely open ground with no armor. I used all of my artillery in a preliminary bombardment and it did a great job. I then performed what was probably my best ever coordinated attack. Using what cover was available I eliminated several Russian squads. I lost 3 depleted squads of my own (out of about 20) but morale was still high. My troops had broken through the Russian perimeter and were over the dangerous open ground and in the town. Resistence seemed light and, with 20 turns left and plenty of ammo at the squad level, it looked like I had a good chance of winning.

Game over. I was not happy.

The only thing that I can think of is the lack of ammo in support units. My squads had plenty, casualties were not heavy at this point and morale was fine. However, I had pretty much exhausted the ammo supply of all support units (arty spotters, mortars, and heavy MGs) trying to get my troops across the open area.

Can somebody confirm the exact reasons for auto ceasefire? Can auto ceasefire be turned off?

Thanks.

[Redwolf]

Whatever criteria are used, they should be documented in detail by the game developer.

These are choices to be made by the game designer and there is no way to derive them from any historical, military or other knowledge.