The Anti-Panther?

[Mattias]

Originally posted by Bigduke6:

But Panthers in any numbers - forget it, if your goal is simulating East Front armored warfare.

What period are you thinking about exactly?

[Edited]

Ah, ok, leave them out for playability reasons.. see it now. Still, the figures might interest someone

Available (operational) in Panzer units on the east front.

31 may 1944: StuG 176 (148), Pz IV 603 (484), Pz V 313 (238), Pz VI 298 (233). 9 divisions armed with Pz V´s

15 march 1945: StuG 545 (314), Pz IV 603 (345), Pz V 776 (387), Pz VI 212 (125). 35 divisions armed with Pz V´s

Keep in mind though, that those are only the figures for the Panzerdivisionen.

Cheers!

M.

[ August 22, 2005, 12:48 PM: Message edited by: Mattias ]

[Andreas]

Mattias

I think he is referring to something else. To wit the Panther as the Undefeatable Uberkillingmachine of Doom™.

All the best

Andreas

[Mattias]

Originally posted by Andreas:

I think he is referring to something else. To wit the Panther as the Undefeatable Uberkillingmachine of Doom™.

Right you are, thanks for covering my blind spot Andreas. There was enough of a discussion about the realism of the CM interpretation of the 75L70 gun to make me think in IRL terms

By the way, a French post war evaluation of the Panther estimated that the 4th or 5th round should be a hit at ranges between 1400 and 2000 meters (which was considered a normal engagement range with the 75L70 gun).

To fuel the discussion a bit, the evaluation also found that the Panther had a time between a target was spotted until the first shot was fired that, normally, was in the order of 20-30 seconds. That was, according to the evaluation, much longer than the time needed for a Sherman. The reason for this was that the gunner in a Panther had no other means of observation than his gunner scope, making acquisition of the target hard. Important details that are not, as far as I know, modelled completely in the game.

Cheers!

M.

[Andreas]

I think the only thing missing in CMBB is that the Panther should be able to hover.

All the best

Andreas

[Bigduke6]

My thanks to the man in the Lederhosen for that clarification. Yeah, I am talking about game balance.

Still, those were fascinating numbers Mattias threw out there. So the way I read it, in your typical East Front fight circa summer 1944, in the panzer divisions anyway, and use operational numbers, the general break down was:

StuGs: 13 per cent

Mark IVs: 43 per cent

Panthers: 21 per cent

Tigers: 21 per cent

(1101 operational vehicles)

And in March '45 it was:

StuGs: 26 per cent

MkIV: 29 per cent

Panther - 33 per cent

Tiger - 11 per cent

I wonder what the ratios would be, if we used CMBB scenarios as the data source? Or the CMBB point system?

[Andreas]

Different. Normally I would not point this out, since it is so blindingly obvious, but since I know that cloven-hoofers have trouble with counting, I thought I should keep it simple.

Say, did you get my emails?

BTW - the number of Stugs would presumably be a lot higher, since IIUHC Mattias is not including independent Stug brigades and Stugs/Hetzer/Jagdpanther/Hornisse in AT formations.

[Sergei]

Originally posted by Andreas:

I think the only thing missing in CMBB is that the Panther should be able to hover.

All the best

Andreas

But that'd only make them even MORE susceptible to air attacks - not only by FB's, but fighters too. And if that 20mm gun can't kill a Panther from above, from below...

[Pzman]

Originally posted by Brent Pollock:

Captured Panthers

Umm I've found captured Panthers to be extreamly weak, and even falling to the likes of Pz.IVs, but the captured models are the A models so they don't suffer from armor quality issues.

[Mattias]

Originally posted by Andreas:

BTW - the number of Stugs would presumably be a lot higher, since IIUHC Mattias is not including independent Stug brigades and Stugs/Hetzer/Jagdpanther/Hornisse in AT formations.

Well, Bigduke6 did limit the selection to Panzerdivisionen, but yes, in the grand scope you would have to include (in the east alone), for 1 june 1944, 32 StuG brigades containing 783 StuG and 120 StuH, for 15 of March 1945, 30 brigades with 518 StuG and 190 StuH.

Not counting replacements, the total number of StuG's sent to Infanterie-, Gebirgs-, Jäger- and Volks-Grenadier-Divisionen on both the west and east front between May 1944 and January 1945 comes to some 660 units. And then add to this, for example, StuG's in Luftwaffe-Feld-units.

(Spielberger, "Sturmgeschütze", page 241 ff)

M.

[Andreas]

Originally posted by Sergei:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Andreas:

I think the only thing missing in CMBB is that the Panther should be able to hover.

All the best

Andreas

But that'd only make them even MORE susceptible to air attacks - not only by FB's, but fighters too. And if that 20mm gun can't kill a Panther from above, from below... </font>

[Mattias]

Agh, it was one of -those- Churchills! Had it identified as another model

Turn sent!

M.

[Bigduke6]

I am so encouraged by the kind words of my sausage-chomping Kamarad, that I have been inspired to redo the numbers. It's fun to know what the German army armored vehicle breakdown (Pun Intended TM) actually was on the East Front, more or less!

If I assume the Panzer Division stats for 31 May and the StuG stats for June 1 1944 can be dovetailed together then this is the average mix of armored vehicles on the East Front. In this second go at number-crunching I used the Panzer Division "listed" rather than "operational" numbers, because I am assuming the numbers for the StuG Brigades Matthias gave also are "listed" rather than "operational" numbers.

May 31/June 1 1944:

StuG: 959 vehicles or 44 per cent

StuH: 120 vehicles or 5 per cent

Pz IV: 484 vehicles or 22 per cent

Pz V: 313 vehicles or 14 per cent

Pz VI: 298 vehicles or 13 per cent

In other words, before breakdowns, one in four panzers on the East Front in June 1944 was "ueber," and about half were assault guns.

Total: 2174 vehicles

March 15 1945:

StuG: 1063 vehicles or 37 per cent

StuH: 190 vehicles or 6.5 per cent

Pz IV: 603 vehicles or 21 per cent

Px V: 776 vehicles or 27 per cent

Pz VI: 212 vehicles or 7.5 per cent

Total: 2,844 vehicles

Now it's one in three "ueber" panzers, although German crew quality ought to be suffering by now.

When you are an untermensch like I am you really get a kick out of using a calculator!

Soooo...my limited intellect forces me to wonder why are there so many CMBB scenarios with Panthers and Tigers, and so few with StuGs and Pz IVs? :confused:

Good thing I lack intelligence to contemplate how the CMBB point system could skew things to make scenarios, and indeed the game, ueber-tank heavy...

Yah Andreas, I got the e-mails, but the last was a couple of weeks ago or sumfink. I still haven't gotten around to doing a battle vs. the A/I, I'm sick of the terrain.

[Andreas]

NP Stefan, I just wanted to make sure they did not end up in the spam filter. The last Panzer IV is holding out valiantly, and Mark is making slow progress (he probably thinks otherwise). But if you are sick of the terrain, I'll hold off from sending you anymore. Good to see that my incessant whinging on the Panthers seems to have had an effect

Regarding your calculations, it would also be necessary to add Nashorns, Marders (probably few by 1945) and Hetzers to the calculation. The funny thing is that some of the Stugs in 1945 would be the early type with shorrt 75s, coming from training establishments.

All the best

Andreas

[Holien]

I would say steady and methodical progress.

Just waiting to get whacked by your massed AT guns and armour that will appear in my rear.

Lets see if my truck towed guns can get past that MKIV

H

[JasonC]

You did not include Jagds and Hetzers. Not significant early, but much more so late.

StuGs are very common in CM games. Too common too early, in fact. They aren't as wildly used late, mid 44 to the end, because there are effective counters to them by then. Though historically, they were quite common at those times.

The other thing that struck me about the figures is the absolute increase despite a year of defeat. German production peaked in 1944, quite late. Part of it, though, is definitional. As the front becomes central Germany, the east front and the home areas pancake into one category. The Germans had around 7000 AFVs, not 2100, a year earlier. Not that many were in the west (never more than a couple thousand).

There were many tanks in rear areas in one stage or another of processing for the front. Production, issued to units, units training on new models, whole units being reconstituted after burning out in combat, reserves, in transit to the front, back for long-term repairs.

I wouldn't expect the mix to be any different, really. But the absolute figures are somewhat apple to orange at the two dates, because the later one necessarily includes the rear area stuff, since the rear disappeared.

[Mattias]

My sincere apologies for the length of this post, but it holds a few interesting facts. I made this compilation back in 2001 so any reference to CM is CM:BO.

keep in mind that it is based on only one source, albeit a good one.

So, for what it’s worth:

Jagdpanzer initial availability based on the Motor buch Verlag ”Militärfahrzeuge” series vol. 14 and 15.

Jagdpanther

Western front

The first 8 were delivered on the 28. April 1944 to s.Pz.Jg. Abt. 654 (the only unit ever to be equipped with three full strength companies):

This unit went into battle with these 8 Jg.Pz. on the 15. June 1944. In action later that month. (28. July 21 vehicles ready, 4 in repair)

Total count in the west 16. December 1944: 51 Jagdpanther

17 Jagdpanther ready and in position to take part in the Ardennes offensive

Eastern front

None available in 1944.

s.Pz.Jg. Abt. 563 (Gemischte/mixed 1x Jagdpanther comp. and 2 x Pz IV/70 (V) comp.)

In action 21.1.1945 together with the 9 Jagdpanthers of the 3. Comp s.Pz.Jg. Abt. 616 (no indication as to whether the latter unit had seen action earlier)

Peak availability was reported on the 15. Mars 1945 with 25 Jagdpanther in the west and 34 in the east being ready for action (a further 58/28 in repair)

Ferdinand/Elefant

Eastern Front

s.Pz.Jg. Reg. 656 (s.Pz.Jg. Abt. 653 and 654 fielding the Ferdinands)

In action at the opening of operation Zitadelle. At the evening of the opening day 37 Ferdinands where combat ready.

In August the Regiment was pulled out of the line. Abt. 654 was sent to the west to refit with Jagdpanthers while Abt. 653 remained on the eastern front until the end of November when it was ordered to move back to Germany to repair and upgrade.

After 4 months of combat on the Eastern front the Regiment claimed to have destroyed 582 tanks, 344 AT-guns and 133 pieces of artillery.

In early April 1944 s.Pz.Jg. Abt. 653 (now without its 1. Comp in Italy) was ordered to return to the east, operating in the area of Heeresgruppe Nordukraine, to help stem the Russian summer offensive.

In October the s.Pz.Jg. Abt. 653 was ordered back to refit with Jagdtigers. The remaining Elefants where herded together in s.Jg.Pz.Kp. 614, in which they fought on till the bitter end in the east. The last reports tell of the company (only four combat ready Elefants) fighting with KG Ritter south of Berlin the 22. April 1945.

Italian Front

1. comp s.Pz.Jg. Abt. 653

Deployed in February 1944. Fought throughout the spring of 44’. There were rarely more than 6 vehicles combat ready at any one time. On the 26. June 1944 the support and repair vehicles of the company was ordered to be return to the Abt. Fighting in Russia. The Remaining two operational Elefants where to be left in Italy.

Jagdtiger

Western Front

s.Pz.Jg. Abt. 653:

1.comp. deployed for the Ardennes offensive with 14 Jagdtigers. However these did not participate in the offensive.

3 Jagdtigers of the Abt. 653 were ready and in position to participate (as ordered) in operation Nordwind , starting on the 30. December. They were supposed to have been operating in support of the 17. SS Pz.G. Div. However, there is no record of this actually happening.

The only other unit to receive Jagdtigers was s.Pz.Jg. Abt. 512, also fighting in the west (surrendered on the 16. April).

The highest number of combat ready Jagdtigers reported was 38 (3 in repair), on the 15. March 1945. The last report was made on the 26. April when 1 combat ready Jagdtiger remained.

Jagdpanzer 38 “Hetzer”

Western Front

14 Jagdpanzer 38 were sent to the 79. and 257. infantry divisions in late August with the next batch to the west following in late September (14 each to 183, 246 and 363 Volks Gren. Div.)

On the 10th of April 1945 the number of deployed Jagdpanzer 38 was as follows:

East: 661 out of which 489 ready for action

West: 101 out of which 79 ready for action

Italy: 76 out of which 64 ready for action

Some in H.Pz.Jg.Abt but more frequently as part of the organic panzerjäger-Kompanien of the non Pz. Divisions.

20 Jagdpanzer 38 were converted to flame thrower tanks and used in the Panzer-Flamm-Kompanien 352 and 353. They were deployed in the end of December 1944, operating in the area of Heeresgruppe G.

Eastern Front

Pz.Jg.Abt. 731 (Heeresgruppe Nord) and then Pz.Jg.Abt. 743 (Heeresgruppe Mitte)

A little unclear as to when, exactly, they arrived. However, the vehicles for Pz.Jg.Abt. 743 were sent on their way on the 4. August 1944.

Those of Abt. 731 arrived a little earlier but no more than two weeks or so. This seems to be supported by the report that the Hetzers of Abt. 731 were in action from July onwards.

The allotment was 45 vehicles each.

Jagdpanzer IV

2 Main versions:

 The first 300 of the Jagdpanzer IV had 60mm frontal armour @ 45 (hull) / 40 (superstructure) degrees (superstructure).

 Following Jagdpanzer IV, from vehicle 301 onwards, 80mm frontal @ 45 (hull) / 40 (superstructure) degrees

- The latter type is for some reason not included in CM, despite constituting the majority of the JgPz IV (L/48) produced. The switch to the 80mm model was made in May 1944. The production continued until November 1944.

Beginning in Mars 1944 the Jagdpanzer IV was released to the Pz.Jg.Abt. of the Pz. And Pz.G. divisions.

Western Front

The first unit to receive the Jagdpanzer IV was the Panzerjäger-Lehr-Abteilung 130 of the Panzer-Lehr-Division

When the allied forces landed there was 62 Jagdpanzer IV in the units immediately facing them.

At the time of the Ardennes offensive 92 Jagdpanzer IV were active in the west.

Italian Front

Between the 25th of April to 30th of May 83 Jagdpanzer IV were sent to Italy.

The first to see action were the ones in the III. Abt. Pz.Reg. “Herman Göring”.

Those sent to the 3. And 15. Pz.G. Div. soon left Italy with their parent units.

Eastern Front

Transports to the east began on the 6th of June. The Pz.Jg.Abt were rearmed in the same way as in the west, first in line being the 4.Pz.Div (49th Pz.Jg.Abt. IIRC).

On the 30. December 1944 the following number of Jagdpanzer IV were in service:

East Front: 209 out of which 146 ready

West front: 59 out of which 28 ready

Jagdpanzer IV/70 (V)

Production began in August 1944 with 57 vehicles being produced. The highest number produced in one month was 185, in January 1945

West Front

The first units to be equipped with this vehicle were the 105. and 106 Panzerbrigaden which receive in their new charges in August 1944, followed by the 107 and 108 in September.

In September 10 Jagdpanzer IV/70(V) were also delivered to the 116. Pz.Div

East Front

109, 110 Pz.Brig. and the Führer-Grenadier-Brigade was fitted out in September 1944 and in October 10 vehicles was sent as replacements to the 24. Pz.Div.

From October onwards special attenton was given to the units earmarked for the operations “Wacht am Rhein” and “Nordwind in order to bringing up the strength. These efforts brought the Jagdpanzer IV/70 (V) numbers up to 210 in the west before the offensives started.

Between January an Mars 1945 more than 200 vehicles were sent as replacements to the east.

Jagdpanzer IV/70 (A)

In order to maximise the output of Jagdpanzers armed with the 7.5 cm KwK 42, Alkett produced vehicle using an unmodified Pz. IV hull topped by a Jagdpanzer IV superstructure. Although this hybrid by no means could be considered a failure it nevertheless was a clearly inferior compared to the Jagdpanzer IV/70 (V). In particular the faulty layout of the armour made it much more susceptible to AP fire. For example; the 85mm gun of a T-34 could penetrate the Jagdpanzer IV/70 (A) frontally at a distance of 1500m, whereas the Jagdpanzer IV/70 (V) would be more or less safe down to a distance of 100m.

Production began in August 1944 and ended in Mars 1945 with 278 vehicles being produced.

Western Front

The first units to field the vehicle in the west was II. Abt. Pz.Reg. “Grossdeutschland” and II. Abt. Pz.Reg. 2. The Jagpanzer IV/70 (A) were delivered during November and December.

Eastern Front

In September 1944 the Führer-Begleit-Brigade was the first unit to be assigned Jagpanzer IV/70 (A), only five vehicles however. Deliveries to the east were slow at the time so it seems likely they arrived in October along with further Jagpanzer IV/70 (A) earmarked for other units. The total figure of vehicles delivered seems to be around 40 for that month.

Many vehicles were given in small numbers to different Stu.G.Brig. both in the east and the west to bolster their firepower while the bulk of units continued to consist mainly of standard StuG types.

M.

[Bigduke6]

Gosh durn those Germans and their proclivity to make a few copies of wierd funky vehicle.

Now I have to do the numbers again. This kind of sustained intellectual effort is enough to make a simple peasant lad's brain overheat, and so force the ticks and fleas to bail from his scalp...Hmm....

Anyway, May 31/June 1 1944:

StuG: 959 vehicles or 43.5 per cent

StuH: 120 vehicles or 5.5 per cent

Pz IV: 484 vehicles or 22 per cent

Pz V: 313 vehicles or 14 per cent

Pz VI: 298 vehicles or 13.5 per cent

Elefant: 30* vehicles or 1 per cent

Total: 2204 vehicles

Assault guns: 50 per cent

March 15 1945:

StuG: 1063 vehicles or 25.5 per cent

StuH: 190 vehicles or 4.5 per cent

Pz IV: 603 vehicles or 15 per cent

Px V: 776 vehicles or 18.5 per cent

Pz VI: 212 vehicles or 5 per cent

Jagdpather: 86 vehicles 2 or per cent*

Elefant: 10 vehicles or 0.2 per cent**

Jpzr 38 Hetzer: 661 vehicles or 16 per cent***

JpzrIV: 409 vehicles or 10 per cent****

JpzrIV/70: 100 vehicles or 2.5 per cent*****

Jpzr IV/70 (A): 50 vehicle or 1 per cent******

Total: 4160 vehicles

Assault guns: 61 per cent

*Two companies present in theater, exact number not known, so this number is a guess.

**Guess, the number had to be less than 01.06.44

***This number is from 10.04.44

****Estimate, on 30.12.44 there were 209

*****Guess

******Guess

So, the bottom line seems to be that in June 1944, about 28 per cent of the German East front tank fleet had pretensions to ueberness.

Or so, I am not trying to sell these numbers as gnat's eyelash accurate, and let's repeat these are just vehicles in theater, not operational.

In March 1945 the number is 29 per cent, although then you have to be more specific about ueberness. If the criterion is guns then 29, but if it is tough armor, the percentage is closer to 8 per cent.

As to conclusions, I am mightily impressed by German vehicle production, although Jason's remark about pancaking the East Front with the Vaterland is fair comment. Still, the numbers presented here are vehicles supposed sent to the East Front, albeit the East Front tended to move, ah, West, during the period we're talking about.

I am also struck by how close the assault gun percentages here mirror Soviet memoirs. About every other engagement the Soviet armor colonels/generals write about is against an assault gun of some kind.

Jeez, I wish I could be a Soviet CMBB player and fight some 44-45 scenarios with 50 - 60 per cent of opposing vehicles assault guns, and most of those quite defeatable by my medium tanks, never mind my heavy tanks and assault guns. Somehow it's always Panthers and Tigers, or Tigers and Panthers.

[Mattias]

Still have to find a home for some 2600 Marders though

I'll see what I can find.

M.

[Bigduke6]

Bring them Marders on! These extended mathematical forensics has given my pudgy untermensch fingers such dexterity, I can hit the correct calculator key one time out of three, even!

(And don't forget the Nashorns and Hornisses and so forth, if you can, then we can do the whole zoo.)

And if we can get Marders, Nashorns and Hornisses (and whatever other goofy thin-skins I don't know about) I'll generate a new statistic: The "Unterpanzer" factor; or that percentage of the German East Front tank fleet that was VULNERABLE to Soviet AT weapons at pretty much any range, any aspect.

[JasonC]

Bison and Grille...

[Andreas]

But those were really just armoured assault guns for infantry support?

[JasonC]

So is a StuH. He asked for the other goofy thin-skins, and they qualify.