Dealing with Anti-tank guns

[MaverickBret]

I just recently got CMBO & CMBB so am a newbie with the game. I have problems when I run into AT guns with my armor. Obviously you would want to bring as many guns to bear as possible to at least suppress the crew till you can knock out the gun. But tanks don't seem to put a priority on AT guns that they do on other tanks. They'll be preoccupied with whatever infantry units are closer than the AT gun. (I witnessed a PzIII engaging an AT team at 200m back away from the AT team to expose it's rear to 45mm ATG fire. It of course was knocked out.) Plus when they see one they tend to back away and find cover thus making any kind of coordinated attack blunder. (The AI suprisingly does a fairly good job of this against my ATG's.)

ATG's primary purpose is to take out tanks so I realize engaging them with tanks is just asking for it. Preferably I'd use artillary but it's hard to get mortars or an FO into position considering tanks advance faster let alone the time delay. So my question is what is the best proven way of eliminating Anti-tank guns.

[Sergei]

As you said, mortars would work better. Or at least having a HMG or nearby infantry suppress it with area fire before your tanks come into sight, that way you're more likely to get to shoot first. If there are multiple targets, you can direct your tank's focus with cover arc, or give it a target order even if the target is not within sight, because then it will be more likely to acquire that target when it can be targeted. "Armor cover arc" includes tanks and ATG's, AFAI can remember.

[Joachim]

Originally posted by MaverickBret:

I just recently got CMBO & CMBB so am a newbie with the game. I have problems when I run into AT guns with my armor. Obviously you would want to bring as many guns to bear as possible to at least suppress the crew till you can knock out the gun. But tanks don't seem to put a priority on AT guns that they do on other tanks. They'll be preoccupied with whatever infantry units are closer than the AT gun. (I witnessed a PzIII engaging an AT team at 200m back away from the AT team to expose it's rear to 45mm ATG fire. It of course was knocked out.) Plus when they see one they tend to back away and find cover thus making any kind of coordinated attack blunder. (The AI suprisingly does a fairly good job of this against my ATG's.)

ATG's primary purpose is to take out tanks so I realize engaging them with tanks is just asking for it. Preferably I'd use artillary but it's hard to get mortars or an FO into position considering tanks advance faster let alone the time delay. So my question is what is the best proven way of eliminating Anti-tank guns.

Combined arms

The best way is combined arms. Don't let the tanks outrun your infantry. It is usually much better to have the infantry lead and bring in the tanks on identified (or at least located) targets. This allows for rifle&MG fire on the ATG.

Mortars

The mortars should be with the infantry. This does work for the small 50mm mortars. If the map allows for it, a HQ as spotter for medium (81-82mm) on-board mortars a bit back. Infantry guns in good locations help, too. Especially the 150mm variant works (AI is usually too dumb too take it out with mortars). If the map has only limited LOS, it should be possible to use some transort for your medium mortars, allowing them to keep up with the infantry.

Covered Arcs and Area Fire

If you want to kill the ATG, and only the ATG, you do not target it directly, but put area fire as close to its location as possible. "Close counts with HE", so you might consider shelling a place close to the ATG from a place where you cannot see the ATG itself. Thus it can't see you. Too ensure the area fire sticks to the target, use a small covered arc in the general direction of the gun. Only big threats outside the covered arc and targets insdie the covered arc will force the tank to switch target.

If you fear enemy tanks, use a wide vehicle arc. This should do the trick in most cases.

Keyholing and placing another tank (or more) in overwatch are good ideas.

Note that often the guns hides ot takes cover, breaking LOS. The ATG can not be targetted directly, the tanks switches target, once the gun is unsuppressed it fires again. Area fire and covered arc prevent this.

What works for the AI does work for you, too:

If you want to use this feature, place a HQ with stealth bonus near the gun and hide once it receives incoming. Unhide once a good target appears.

Big shells

PzIII's are not a good idea vs ATGs (ok, except the PzIIIn). You want some big gun vs soft targets. 75mm or more. That's why I suggested infatry guns.

20m autocannons can work, too, as they fire many shells.

Snipers

They suppress ATGs, sometimes they even manage to rout the crew (I had one who killed 2 crewmen and the gun but fired only one shot in the whole game)

Gruß

Joachim

[ November 17, 2003, 04:33 AM: Message edited by: Scarhead ]

[stikkypixie]

How does a gun in real life hide or take cover, because apparently if an ATG hides or takes cover it is out of LOS?, :confused:

[eichenbaum]

If you have smoke grenades create a screen just in front of the AT gun and then use an area target command with HE grenades/shells (as described above). The most inaccurate guns are the best types for the job. They create a wider pattern of impacts, dropping shells even in and behind the smoke screen.

While the AT gun is being supressed you can move your tanks into position. If the gun hasn't been destroyed you're able to take it out with your tanks. The gun crew needs time to stand up from cover and aim correctly.

[Joachim]

Originally posted by stikkypixie:

How does a gun in real life hide or take cover, because apparently if an ATG hides or takes cover it is out of LOS?, :confused:

Dunno. Really breaking LOS does (and should) work. If the gun is in a cresting position or a thick forest, pulling it back will do the trick. Of course nobody will turn it around and push as in CM but pull it back.

When hiding a gun does not move out of LOS but it vanishes from sight. LOS is just a common abbreviation used for anything regarding sight.

Maybe hiding represents nobody running around the gun and no muzzle flashes from shooting. Given that there is some muzzle flash and smoke from the tank gun blocking sight for a moment, a TC may loose track of a concealed gun inside uniform cover (ie somewhere on the edge of a huge forest as opposed to "5m to the left of the only building in the area"). I have no explanation for grunts loosing sight of a stationary gun.

BTW: There is that gamey bug checking the generic unit marker. Click on the unit marker. While you can see the terrain in the unit info (on the control panel), the unit is alive. If it is black, the unit is dead.

Other hints the gun is destroyed are your units kill stats and another generic marker appearing very close to the gun stating "Crew" or "infantry?"

Gruß

Joachim

[ November 17, 2003, 06:59 AM: Message edited by: Joachim ]

[Andreas]

Originally posted by stikkypixie:

How does a gun in real life hide or take cover, because apparently if an ATG hides or takes cover it is out of LOS?, :confused:

It really depends on how prepared the position is. IRL it could be that the gun could be rolled back a little bit, and/or the crew getting into a dugout.

Difficult to say for all cases. You have to remember that 'sighting' in CM is not just visual sihgting of the equipment, but also includes sound, and e.g. muzzle blast/fumes.

[Monty]

Originally posted by Joachim:

Other hints the gun is destroyed are your units kill stats and another generic marker appearing very close to the gun stating "Crew" or "infantry?"

[/QB]

Mostly that is through, but i lost some tanks when i stopped shelling some AT guns because i thought those guns were knocked out, so if you can spare the shells, put some extra on suspected places is my advice.

Monty

[ November 17, 2003, 08:41 AM: Message edited by: Monty ]

[MaverickBret]

Thanks everybody for the tips.

Took me a couple days to try them out. Area fire makes a world of difference. Was playing the Blitzkrieg operation and kept running into Russian ATG's on reverse slopes at close range. With area fire LOS isn't necessary, just as long as you can target within 10m's or so. I also see the advantage of using area fire even when you can trace LOS.

I had been guilty of letting my armor get ahead of my troops. I've adjusted this. In one example I located a '45' in some trees. I took stock of what I had available and noticed I had a platoon of infantry close by that weren't in sight of the gun. I had them flank it and then advanced on it through the trees. The gun crew surrendered without firing a shot. So I'm learning.

Thanks again,

-Bret

[JasonC]

Some standard ATG drills especially for the German, against typical mid-war Russian guns.

1. Assess caliber. Do you have only a sound contact? If so, it is probably only a 45mm. Those will "resolve" to a full spot around 600m, while the more dangerous 76s and 57s can be fully IDed out to 1-1.2 km.

2. Protect your flank. Most Russian ATGs need flank hits to hurt typical German tanks at medium range. Only the 57 is an exception, or early war Germans against the 76. You present the strongest armor by facing about 20 degrees to the side of the gun, not directly at it. ATGs like crossfire, so hug a building, trees, or a hill to break that up.

3. If the gun is full ID and beyond 700m it is high caliber and so dangerous, get to defilade. If it is a sound contact and thus probably a 45mm, present forward armor and plan to get someone close enough for a full ID. The main way you get close enough is by defying 45mm penetration with front armor. But if dead ground or cover can let infantry get close, that is even less risk to your tanks.

4. Assign feasible combined arms roles. It is usually too much to expect your infantry to go kill ATGs for you, when they are typically behind HMGs. Infantry's job is to get close enough to resolve the gun to a full ID, aka to spot, not to KO them all. Think of their mission as creeping into cover at most 400m from the enemy position, preferably more like 250m, protected from small arms by range and from MGs by cover once they get there. Against HE they have to "skulk" and break LOS (e.g. behind the building, not in it). They do not need to get to the 100m ranges where their own weapons can kill to be useful.

5. Infantry heavy weapons can provide useful "assymetric" overwatch for tanks. Light mortars especially. I find 50mm too light for this, unless used in pairs and with ammo to burn (the Russians have that, the Germans don't really). On map 81mm is strong enough to pin or break a gun with a single minute of area fire. Snipers can also pin. HMGs are relatively bad at it, needing to be within 250m and paired to do anything on their own. They are best used just to maintain the level of pin something else provides.

Light FOs have a reaction time problem, and an expense problem against mere 45mm. But against the more dangerous full km spotted guns, they are worth it. You want your tanks in full defilade when there is one of those shooting. If it takes time, it takes time. Put a minute and change on the gun, moving tanks into LOS after the first "half minute" to take up the duel during the full minute. ATGs fire very slowly if at all under these circumstances, so your tanks will have the edge. Don't blow a full module on one gun - just suppress it and finish it with tank fire.

6. Use thick fronted tanks to KO lone guns they outmatch. 45mm are easy - they often bounce even from the front of a Pz IIC. Just don't get too close - over 500m even T ammo doesn't help them much. Thick 80mm StuGs can KO 76mm from 500-1000m quickly and reasonably safely. You don't have to reach into the other bag of tricks for these run-of-the-mill cases. You need the tricks when they've got cross fire, to take out 1 and let you present only front armor to the next, etc.

7. Use large HE chuckers with area fire, with marginal LOS. Short 75mm or better is best at this. To get the marginal LOS, scan from behind a building e.g. Your LOS will sweep across the gun from left to right as you peek out. Stop when you have LOS to 5m away but not to the gun.

8. Move in platoon strength over open areas, deployed tightly. You can often pick up and outshoot single ATGs, pinning them after one round fired, if you have a full platoon. The MGs alone of a full tank platoon will pin a gun crew within 500m, and break one within about 200m. MGs work even when moving, while the main guns will miss. Short halts - shoot and scoot order with second waypoint continuing forward - can give some main gun overwatch.

9. If you encounter 2 ATGs with crossfire, put all available MGs on one and turn to face the other, and you can often survive the ambush. The one you face will live but its shots will bounce, while your fire will pin or break the other. Next turn after halting, have one fire main gun at the pinned guy to finish him off, while everyone else KOs the fresh, firing one.

10. A single half squad on foot going first can spot enemy AFVs and (for Allies vs. Germans - Russian ones are too weak to matter) big gun bunkers for you, before your whole platoon encounters them. The way you can lose a whole platoon without result is to encounter something too well protected to hit with combined replies. But that stuff is all easy to spot. The stuff that is hard to spot can be hurt.

[Lane]

Subject AT Gun. I was playing a QB Last night

500 points and was playing Sovit Inf, combin arms

1944. I had two AT guns and a SU-76M armor.

One AT gun was knocked out and Lost my SU-76 to a

STUG 111G near the end of battle a AT rife team

was bouncing rounds off tht STUG and he came across

the field to attack my AT team and was able to

move my 76.2MM M1943 Regimental Gun to edge of woods

The STUG never seen the AT gun crew setting up

and came across the Field for a side shot.

The AT Gun got him first round. The AT team on

ground was the hero's for Luring the STUG to

attack them.

So if you think the enemy armor is gone he may

have a AT gun Just waiting for you.

Well that's my two cents

Lane