Duck Feet Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 My first post here, but I'm not entirely a novice with respect to CM. I enjoyed CMBO quite a bit a few years ago, and got to the point where I could beat the comp pretty regularly at +2 opp... I recently tried out the CMBB demo and found the Citadel Schwerpunkt mission quite difficult as the Red Army. After four repeat engagements, the best I have accomplished is a draw. I am hoping for some advice on how to best achieve a victory. I'm sure many are familiar with this map, but I have provided an rough outline below: As a brief primer: In this situation you are tasked with stopping an German Panzer advance in something like company stength (approx 15 tanks)... to do this you hold a dozen 45mm AT guns (mixed force of vets, regs, green), 2 KV-1s, a slew of recoiless rifle teams and four tank hunter squads.... the setup looks like an "assault" situation and you are free to place units over about 70% of the map... you are supposed to hold two positions on the map marked with victory flags... The map itself is roughly a 2500m x 700m rectangle, in which the terrain is generally wide open, with gently rolling hills, and some patchy woods scattered on the sides of the map. For my intial engagement I used the preset defensive positions (3 lines of AT weapons, entrenched on the crests of several hills running perpendicular to the ops axis of advance)... The penetrating ability of the AT guns with tungsten or AP, well.. is pretty poor at any range over 500yds, so decided to set my cover arcs to about 300 yards... oops. When the Panzer IIIs rolled into range of the first guns, most rounds richocheted off and my four AT guns were torn asunder by DF from 15 annoyed PIIIs. The next lines of AT guns proved little better, even though I kept the cover arcs to within 150 meters, most rounds failed to produce lethal hits, though many were penetrating the armour. My KVs, which I had placed in reserve to plug holes in my AT lines were taken out in hull down positions at my main line of defense... My AAR thoughts were: 1. My AT guns are only lethal from point blank range 2. My AT guns and recoiless rifles cannot defeat the Panzer armor from the front... 3. I need to use my KV tanks to manuever into the rear of the Panzer assault... With this info in mind, I set up a layered reverse slope defense. With all the direct fire those tanks can lay out, I wanted to shield my AT guns from multiple directions of fire... so I created three AT concentrations on the opposite sides of the small hills. I placed the guns within 100m of the crest of the slope.. with LOS out to 125-150m... again, I set my cover arcs to 100 meters, so unless the Panzers crested the hill en echelon, they would be taken out piecemeal. I also scattered my recoiless rifles teams around the sides of my AT emplacements to provide a modicum of flank security to my guns but primarily to to get a lucky close-in side or rear shot at a tank should one pass within 30m... Knowing the Panzers would rumble through the center of the map, I placed my KV-1s in a small defilade in the northwest corner that would allow them to remain undetected (los) by the advancing germans... I then hoped to pop up and fire at the rear of the mass of tanks, taking out as many as possible... In the end, my strat worked to slow down the Germans, but not really stop them... One of my forward tank hunter teams scored a hit on a PIII and knocked it out... A forward deployed recoiless rifle team shocked a PIII with a side hit at 22m... but the vicious Germans tore apart my brave comrade with hellish MG fire before he could finish the job... My plan to "hide" my tanks on the flank and get into the rear didn't work.. the KVs gun weren't quite powerful enough to take out the Panzers from the rear, at 300 yards... they both sucummed to ALOT of fire from the gaggle of tanks... My AT defense worked poorly. I knocked out three tanks, but it cost me all twelve of my 45mm AT guns... creating a reverse slope AT defense fire worked well if the tanks came in directly over the hill in an uncoordinated fashion, (which happened on one hill)... but often, three or more Panzers crested simultaneously and at different angles, making concentrated fire on them impossible... I ended up drawing with the computer after 45 turns (when I requested a cease-fire)... strictly because I held some victory flags with a few MGs... but a few more turns and he would have rolled over me... and against a human, I don't think i would have much of a chance... Have others had success with this mission? How would you arrange your forces? Constructive criticism and help appreciated... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tankibanki Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 I have never played this scenario, but Im going to try it right away. Are you playing with AI experience bonus? I always try to use guns at the longest range possible, because then they have a considerable accuracy advantage and will only be visible as sound contacts to the enemy. Of course that is not an option if they cannot achieve penetrations at those ranges. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wicky Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 <a href="http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=23;t=005279" target="_blank">Citadel Schwerpunkt Playing as the Soviets</a> IIRC get the guns keyholed to only shoot at the individual panzers as they pass at roughly 90 degrees/from side on. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonC Posted January 31, 2006 Share Posted January 31, 2006 First main point - the 45mm need side shots much more than they need point blank. The flatter the better - meaning as close as possible to 90 degrees from the tank's direction of travel. When they have side shots, they can hurt the Panzers at considerably longer range than you were using. Some shots miss, some bounce due to side angle, but some get partial or full penetrations. The behind armor effect of 45mm AP is still low, low enough it generally takes 3 penetrations to get a kill. But they can kill the things. And here is the kicker - at distances above about 800 yards, the tanks will get only a sound contact back, not a direct spot. This is especially true if they are not facing toward the gun at the moment it fires. Short range fire means you will be instantly spotted, and if many tanks can see the ATG, that means you die after a few shots. If you have tungsten or an initial side shot, you may get 1-2 penetratrions in that time. But you cannot expect to average even one KO per ATG lost. The ATRs are not "recoilless" incidentally. They are just big honking rifles, over 50 caliber, firing tungsten core ammo. The ATRs can remain sound at ranges as close as 250-300m. But they are unlikely to have any effect even at ranges that close, even firing for minutes on end. They can button the tanks to reduce their spotting ability, that is about it, at range. It is worth doing - but only if you see the TC open. Otherwise, the ATRs need to be used for 100m shots at the rear or a flat side. With little chance of actually KOing one. If all your ATRs combined keep his tanks buttoned and damage even a single panzer, you are getting as much out of them as you can expect. The way you get even that much is to hide once they get within about 300m, shooting again only when you have a flat side or rear shot. Your MMGs can also be used to button up enemy tanks. At 400m or more, you have little chance of being spotted if you fire from cover. You again just give sound. When they get closer, hide. The tank hunters can be very deadly, but only attacking from hiding and at very short range (40m). Do not try to move closer to get that range - you will just be spotted. Put them in tree cover or better or they will be spotted before having their chance. They are going to get killed if they get a shot, but can get a tank first. Don't get them killed if they did not get their shot - just leave them be. The key to the defense is using the 45mms well. You need shots from multiple angles to get those side facings. You want to make the tanks orient on one shooter or pair first, and then hit them with another pair from 90 degrees off that new facing. Even at long range. Fire at long range, only at the tanks showing their sides, until the gun is down to about 10 rounds. Then hide. Save the last few only for point blank fire. The few guns with lots of T ammo you can try holding until point blank, but with side shots too. From the time you first fire to the time the side orientation does away is typically at most 3 shots, and sometimes only 2 (with high side angle after that, then front facing). Also, you should concentrate on killing as many of the Panzer IVs as possible. The Germans don't have all that many of those. And their guns are much more dangerous to your KVs, than the 50mms on the Pz IIIs are. Keep the KVs in full defilade while the ATGs thin the Pz IVs. The KVs can kill IVs at long range if they catch them hull down, making a turret hit overwhelmingly likely. But you can't afford to trade with them, so only use this to finish off the last one. The front turret of a IV is only 50mm, compared to 70mm for the front of a III. The KVs with frontal armor only showing, can bounce the 50mm stuff all day, at ranges above about 600m. At that range, their own guns are still lethal to any of the Panzers with side facings, only. The IIIs will bounce your hits once they are facing you - get out of LOS once that happens. IVs will bounce hits on the front hull once they are facing you, have fast turrets, and their guns are lethal to the KVs at any range. If you've killed the IVs and the range is still long, you can hold them off indefinitely by first firing from a side with an ATG, then hunting up to a crest with the KVs and shooting them from the side (as they turned to face the ATG). Then when they turn to face the KVs and close the distance, another ATG hits them with another side shot. Overall, you have to make them turn to win. If they are in the middle of functioning Russian weapons on 3 sides, you are golden. If they keep all your live shooters on one side of themselves, you can't stop them. I hope this helps. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John D Salt Posted January 31, 2006 Share Posted January 31, 2006 Originally posted by JasonC: [snips] The ATRs are not "recoilless" incidentally. They are just big honking rifles, over 50 caliber, firing tungsten core ammo. Indeed, probably candidates (along with the PIAT) for least recoilless shoulder-fired weapon of the 20th century. All the best, John. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted February 1, 2006 Share Posted February 1, 2006 Duck Feet, Welcome! If this is one of the scenarios we got to play in the Beta Demo, then I have some familiarity with your problem, for I have commanded as the Germans. SPOILER ALERT!!!! * * * * * * * Using the new to me cover arc feature, the Panzer force was committed to battle in platoon diamonds with overlapping visual coverage in all directions and the Panzer IVs trailing the Panzer IIIs by several hundred meters. Every time an ATG spoke, a platoon hail of HE and MG fire went whistling back the other way. We suppressed and shattered gun after gun in this way, and casualties, if we had any (frankly don't recall, maybe an immobilization via track hit), were minimal. Michael Emrys, who was there, may be able to say. Would imagine all the battle particulars got reported back to BFC by Bill, our host in Corona. Borg spotting makes antitank guns much easier to locate and deal with than was the case on the real battlefield. The tank hunter teams gave some trouble, nearly pulling off an attack from behind, but got zapped by the rear tank in the diamond, the one watching the platoon's six. I recall that the ATRs were worrisome (spangs got old quickly!), but didn't really do anything. Where things got puckerish in a hurry was when we spotted the KV-1s while under fire from the ridge in the Russian rear. Had to try to suppress the guns with some Panzer IIIs while potting away at the KV-1s in succession (using Shoot and Scoot), meanwhile pushing the Panzer IVs forward while trying not to get my Panzer IIIs eaten (lost one or two, I believe). Once in firing position, the Panzer IVs ran the same Shoot and Scoot drill and fired a bunch of bounced shots, only to eventually to kill first one KV-1 and then its brother. Got one in the flank and the other in a weak point. We won big, but going into battle armed with only one principal combat branch is not my idea of fun. JasonC's advice is extremely sound. Gun by gun revelation of your system of fire is a recipe for progressive destruction of your defensive system. The guns need to be mutually supporting, sited to enfilade the Panzer approach route (generating those perpendicular shots), and ideally set up in a firesack defense. Use the MMGs & ATRs to button his Panzers and keep them buttoned. Close-in ATR shots need to be in the rear if possible (skirted Panzer IIIs, IIRC), maximizing the likelihood of rear hull and track hits. Even better if if you can pull off a 45mm Panzer enema! The first indication of trouble should be when Panzers suddenly start grinding to a halt, or better yet, exploding, and "T" fired into the flanks or rear as JasonC described, can go a long way toward making that happen. Think long and hard about where to put those critical guns with "T" ammo. Put the tankhunters where they can get to Panzers in trouble. This means fully integrating them into your defensive scheme. Would offer more, but I saw the battle only from the German side, and I believe we simply called it after both KV-1s ate it, so I never saw the full Russian deployment. Happy hunting! Regards, John Kettler [ February 01, 2006, 04:30 PM: Message edited by: John Kettler ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corvidae Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 eh, I am downloading the demo JUST for this mission, Having had to reinstall everthing,,,,, 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 Corvidae, Sorry you had a major computer problem. Hope you didn't have lots of mods installed! Which side will you be playing? We'd love some sort of AAR when you're done. Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tankibanki Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 I never had the demo and just did the same. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corvidae Posted February 3, 2006 Share Posted February 3, 2006 john kettler, no mods ,, just some scenarios ,, had a lovely h2h battle ,, soviet retreat in 41, , never got to play it , , i realy need a better computer ,, , i love to play soviet cavalry 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted February 9, 2006 Share Posted February 9, 2006 Duck Feet, tankibanki, and Corvidae, Have you played Citadel Schwerpunkt since you posted last here? If so, how'd you do? Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tankibanki Posted February 9, 2006 Share Posted February 9, 2006 Yes, I have tested it as both Russian and German. Each without AI xp Bonus. I don't remember the exact outcomes, but as Russian I think it was total or major vitory. I set up sections of 2 guns each mostly close to the map edges. None of my units took any losses, except 2 or 3 guns 1 AT rifle and 1 Maxim MG. Destroyed all but 2 tanks: one was immobilized by a gun that was destroyed later and I didn't get to finish it off with the KVs. The other one had taken gun damage and I didn't go looking for it in the end. I think I was kind of lucky with my KVs. They took some hits when they crested a hill but didnt take any damage. When I played as German I let the AI set up freely (I think the default set up is suicide). Lost lotsof tanks, mostly from sound contacts. Once a gun was spotted it was taken out pretty quickly. The KVs posed a problem, but not unsurmountable: I attacked their position from 2 angles. In the end I was in posession of all flags and all but one gun were destroyed. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RogerMcMahon Posted February 9, 2006 Share Posted February 9, 2006 I am a new guy here as well...been playing CM games for about a year...lurked around here on a off when I had the time, I enjoy the give and take...ha ha and the expertise of the veteran posters. I am laid up now, collecting disability pension and now have some time to add my wealth of useless information to these threads. This is my first post on the forum...this thread is a bit old but appears to be resurrected. I want to say that playing on the axis side, I have found great difficulty avoiding the chewing up of my SPWs by hidden Russian ATR teams who plunk away for quite sokme time before being spotted, and sometimes never spotted. Other than just leaving your soft skinned vehicles out of range, whats the best way to counter ATRs in axis attack battles? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted February 9, 2006 Share Posted February 9, 2006 Originally posted by RogerMcMahon: I am a new guy here as well...been playing CM games for about a year...lurked around here on a off when I had the time, I enjoy the give and take...ha ha and the expertise of the veteran posters. I am laid up now, collecting disability pension and now have some time to add my wealth of useless information to these threads. This is my first post on the forum...this thread is a bit old but appears to be resurrected. I want to say that playing on the axis side, I have found great difficulty avoiding the chewing up of my SPWs by hidden Russian ATR teams who plunk away for quite sokme time before being spotted, and sometimes never spotted. Other than just leaving your soft skinned vehicles out of range, whats the best way to counter ATRs in axis attack battles? I'd suggest 5cm mortars, if there aren't enemy MGs to play with, and with the proviso that the ATRs are spotted...which you indicate may be a problem. Welcome to the board, btw. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RogerMcMahon Posted February 9, 2006 Share Posted February 9, 2006 Thank you Mike....can mortars be really effective when you cant spot the damned things...I can hear them, but my opponent has them well hidden...would you suggest firing into suspected areas or waiting for a confirmed spot? This is a dilema for me because what I wind up doing is bringing armor forward of my infantry and having them blasted by hidden AT guns...I guess I have not yet mastered the combined arms puzzle. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonC Posted February 9, 2006 Share Posted February 9, 2006 Dismount and send the infantry first on foot. Overwatch with actual tanks. Leave SPWs in full defilade to help shift heavy weapons and towed guns around, from A to B. Don't try to attack with infantry in them, it is not what they are for. Late, last 10 minutes or so, when the enemy AT network is smashed, then you can bring them out to use their MGs to help mop up, if you like. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RogerMcMahon Posted February 9, 2006 Share Posted February 9, 2006 Originally posted by JasonC: Dismount and send the infantry first on foot. Overwatch with actual tanks. Leave SPWs in full defilade to help shift heavy weapons and towed guns around, from A to B. Don't try to attack with infantry in them, it is not what they are for. Late, last 10 minutes or so, when the enemy AT network is smashed, then you can bring them out to use their MGs to help mop up, if you like. I think my problem is bringing loaded SPWs TOO close to the enemy defensive line. SPWS seem to be targeted well by ATRs. I realize that these thin skinned half tracks do not have the armor protection to withstand Russian AT assets of mid 1943. This is good advice JasonC...maybe I am too agressive...patience can also win the day I bet. I think I am too enamored with the "blowtorch battalion" concept of riding into action in my SPWs...it doesnt often work that way. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonC Posted February 9, 2006 Share Posted February 9, 2006 It is a projection into WW II of tactics and capabilities - dubious ones at that - that only come into their own in the mid to late cold war era. WW II attacks by armor divisions led with large bodies of full tanks. Larger than you ever see in CM, really. A decent CM approximation is an "armor" force type with a full company of tanks as the main body. If the terrain isn't open, they might have a company of infantry with them. If the terrain is quite tight (dense woods, large urban), they might have two. They need the infantry to scout terrain where tanks can't go, mostly. 'Tracks are an afterthought, to help the slower heavy weapons get around. They are not essential to tank-infantry cooperation in WW II. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duck Feet Posted February 10, 2006 Author Share Posted February 10, 2006 Originally posted by John Kettler: Duck Feet, tankibanki, and Corvidae, Have you played Citadel Schwerpunkt since you posted last here? If so, how'd you do? Regards, John Kettler Hi John, Thanks for your kind words and advice. I've played the mission a couple of times after posting here. The flanking ATG tactics outlined by Wicky, JasonC and yourself were pretty effective at stopping the German armored advance. I decided to experiment with different combinations of ATG arrangements to see what was most effective in killing tanks in this mission... ie setting up groups of 2,3, and 4 guns at key points... and whether to create one massive killzone or several smaller ones.... etc. I also screwed around with different force groupings (Green only, Green/Vet/Reg Mix), to see how they would fare... Most of these engagments resulted in Minor or Total Victory. In only one mission did I even have to employ my KVs as the ATGs usually annihilated the armoured column... I'm looking forward to purchasing the full CMBB game and rolling through from Stalingrad to Berlin! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted February 11, 2006 Share Posted February 11, 2006 Duck Feet, Appreciate the feedback, and enjoy CMBB when you finally get it! Be sure to install all the patches when you do. Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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