1942 tiger location

[Andreas]

Well - so riddle me this. How many more men could 6th Army have lost if they had tried?

[V]

Originally posted by Andreas:

Well - so riddle me this. How many more men could 6th Army have lost if they had tried?

I agree with you totally on this. 6th Army should have attempted a breakout...

First Paulus refuses to break the Führer's orders then he decides he can break the Führer's orders. I don't have too much respect for him as a commander. Tens of thousands of his troops died in captivity while he led a somewhat nice life in Soviet hands. You would think a man of his reputation would want to go where his troops were and continue to lead them, even in the Gulags.

"History gives a simple and unkind verdict on Friedrich Paulus: gifted Staff officer, uninspired commander, an unquestioning general of the 'orders-are-orders' type....He never questioned Nazism and was willing to do almost anything ordered by Hitler. Finally, when the fate of a quarter of a million men rested in his hands, he 'froze' and did little but let events take their course to the complete destruction of his army and the miserable deaths of most of his soldiers." (Middlebrook, 372).

[Richie]

Originally posted by Andreas:

Well - so riddle me this. How many more men could 6th Army have lost if they had tried?

Oh, I agree. The rational thing to do would be to order the withdrawal / breakout of the 6th army. You have 250 000 fighting men, you have fuel and AFV's. You also have a certain degree of air support.

You have a friendly army 50 kms away.

In place they are whittled down and annihilated anyway.

You want to try and salvage them as best you can.

I think it made Paulus' decision to obey Hitler easier when you consider the state some of the troops were in. Some troops would have had to have been left behind due to their condition.

Some would have died on the march.

If they'd saved a quarter or a third of the 6th army it would have been worth it.

I think Hitler's pride made it impossible for him to abandon Stalingrad.

At that stage Paulus' loyalty made it impossible for him to disobey Hitler

[Kingfish]

Had Paulus attempted a breakout, or been overwhelmed before the last week of January, the flood that would have descended on Rostov would have swamped Army Group Don. The result would have been not only the loss of 6th army, but most if not all of Army Group South as well.

[Richie]

Originally posted by Kingfish:

Had Paulus attempted a breakout, or been overwhelmed before the last week of January, the flood that would have descended on Rostov would have swamped Army Group Don. The result would have been not only the loss of 6th army, but most if not all of Army Group South as well.

Good point. Would you have left them or ordered the breakout being in the same situation?

[Aguirre]

If I may chime in here, I'm not sure how feasible it would have been to have attempted a breakout. I remember seeing a translation of a German document listing the supposed combat stengths of various formations within the Sixth Army in late 1942. Unfortunately, I can't remember any details about the source or the exact date (sometime in November, I think), but the thing that impressed itself upon me was that even at this stage units were in poor shape. Only one or two divisions were rated as 'fit for offensive duty', whatever that means, and fuel and ammunition were in short supply (though I suppose this was usually a complaint).

Still, moving undernourished, frostbitten units on foot through deep snow and often harsh weather in extreme cold wouldn't have been much fun. Attacking an entrenched enemy combined arms force in such conditions, and with minimal armour (if the there were any remaining tanks that could be moved that far) and artillery support would have been unlikely to achieve much, I think.

[Andreas]

Originally posted by Kingfish:

Had Paulus attempted a breakout, or been overwhelmed before the last week of January, the flood that would have descended on Rostov would have swamped Army Group Don. The result would have been not only the loss of 6th army, but most if not all of Army Group South as well.

From memory,I do not think that view is correct. The Red Army had probably already re-allocated its main maneuver forces by this stage, after being surprised by the size of the bag in November. That he did hold on certainly had an effect early on, but by late December that must have been a fairly minimal effect.

The key to avoiding the loss of Army Group A was in particular the re-allocation of 6.PD from Wintergewitter after it had failed, but this could still have been undertaken if there had been at least a partially successful breakout.

Of course, the whole Army Group A problem only occurred because they were also ordered not to withdraw for far too long.

Regarding whether the breakout was feasible, and whether there would have been horrendous losses, or whatever. In the end, 2% (plus flown out wounded) of those who were encircled at Stalingrad survived. Any solution that produces a better result would be preferable. So if 90% of the army dies while breaking out, you still end up with 400% more survivors.

[Stan Hope Park]

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[ March 06, 2005, 08:36 AM: Message edited by: 1327 ]

[Stan Hope Park]

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[ March 06, 2005, 08:38 AM: Message edited by: 1327 ]

[Stan Hope Park]

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[ March 06, 2005, 08:40 AM: Message edited by: 1327 ]

[Stan Hope Park]

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[ March 06, 2005, 08:42 AM: Message edited by: 1327 ]

[Stan Hope Park]

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[ March 06, 2005, 08:42 AM: Message edited by: 1327 ]

[Andreas]

Originally posted by CSO_Talorgan:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Andreas:an attempt to stop the Red Armz rampaging through its rear areas (as 25th Tank Corps was about to do during the raid on Tatsinskaya).

Is this hinting at a difference in the two armies' tactical agility in the snow? </font>

[Andreas]

Originally posted by CSO_Talorgan:

I doubt it too, but what if Tigers had been *added* to the rescue force? What if Tigers had formed "the tip of the spear"? Could they have cut a hole all the way through to the city? Would the rest of the rescue force then have been able to hold a corridor, like you describe, open?

IIRC (it is a while that I read on the battle), if the armoured elements of the Wintergewitter force had stayed committed in the breakthrough for a few more days, the Soviets would probably have cut them, and the whole of Army Group A off in an encirclement that would have made Stalingrad what Quatre Bras was to Waterloo.

That is regardless of the question of whether they could break through in the first place. I have my doubts about that, even with Tigers. By the time Wintergewitter became an acknowledged failure, the Red Army had just moved another formation inbetween the city and the relief force. I really do not think that the presence of any tactical weapons system would have changed the outcome here, since the problem the Germans faced was an operational one.

[Bigduke6]

Originally posted by V:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Andreas:

Better than 6th Army by not breaking out. 6th Army lost 100% of its men, while Napoleon managed to salvage something.

Napoleon didn't have T-34's and IL2's on his ass, though...

</font>

[Stan Hope Park]

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[ March 06, 2005, 08:43 AM: Message edited by: 1327 ]

[J_Powell]

Originally posted by Andreas:

Better than 6th Army by not breaking out. 6th Army lost 100% of its men, while Napoleon managed to salvage something.

Oh, cmn! That is absolutly uncomparable

A little more luck near Stalingrad and Moskow et voila, "1000 years reich" would be a real /

[V]

Originally posted by J_Powell:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Andreas:

Better than 6th Army by not breaking out. 6th Army lost 100% of its men, while Napoleon managed to salvage something.

Oh, cmn! That is absolutly uncomparable

A little more luck near Stalingrad and Moskow et voila, "1000 years reich" would be a real / </font>

[Andreas]

Originally posted by J_Powell:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Andreas:

Better than 6th Army by not breaking out. 6th Army lost 100% of its men, while Napoleon managed to salvage something.

Oh, cmn! That is absolutly uncomparable

A little more luck near Stalingrad and Moskow et voila, "1000 years reich" would be a real / </font>

[V]

Originally posted by J_Powell:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Andreas:

Better than 6th Army by not breaking out. 6th Army lost 100% of its men, while Napoleon managed to salvage something.

Oh, cmn! That is absolutly uncomparable

A little more luck near Stalingrad and Moskow et voila, "1000 years reich" would be a real / </font>

[Shadow 1st Hussars]

Does anyone have stats on how much working German equipment the Russians were able to capture and use from Stalingrad? I'm guessing there were huge stocks of weapons with no ammo and vehicles with no fuel.

[Leopard_2]

Originally posted by V:

[QB]

Two words: Atomic Bomb.

You mean Manhattan Project or Virus House?

As for Soviets capturing equipment... it's standard drill to render your equipment useless before you are captured.