1942 tiger location

[slysniper]

I just came across a site that stated only 40 tiger tanks had been produced by Nov of 42.

Does anyone know in what theaters these would have been serving in at the time. I would think north africa and northern part of russia, but if someone knows more about this I would like to know possible locations they would have been at and quantities. I found this on tiger 131 history notes.

[David I]

Slysniper,

Google "WWII Tiger Tank Battalions" you'll find brief histories for every Tiger Battalion during the war. You have it about right. 20 Tigers of the 501 Battalion were sent to North Africa between Nov. 42 and Jan. 43. I think the rest were in 502 Battalion in Russia, or in training. The 503 Battalion was formed Dec 42/Jan 43, so some of them went to that formation.

DavidI

[slysniper]

Thanks David, I have a book with some accounts from the 502, but it has been awhile since I read it. I was interested in how many might be in North Africa, 20, thanks for the tip, I need to learn more about this, always learning.

[Andreas]

In 501 in NA, on 16th Dec, eight Tigers were available, seven operational.

For December, 30 were in the Wehrmacht inventory in total, 68 had been produced in total (43 by end November), and 3 total losses.

All according to Jentz.

[slysniper]

http://www.fprado.com/armorsite/tigers-02.htm

This is one site that seems to have a lot of information about battalion dates and when tigers were received or lost. This is a site I had not seen before.

[Wicky]

Interesting info, if a bit late for CMAK, from the link if it can be confirmed

"PzAbt 504 saw a great deal of action in the Italian campaign, including the Arno river campaign and the defense of northern Italy. In 1944, in the Vienna area, sPzAbt 504 was partly re-equipped with Tiger II Ausf Bs. The battalion surrendered at the end of the war, along with other German units in Italy."

Did they leave their big tiggers behind in Austria?

[Andreas]

Jentz has them in Italy from June 44 to the end.

Lexikon der Wehrmacht states that only 1.Kp was sent to Vienna to be re-equipped with VIB in August. No info where it went afterwards.

[Buq-Buq]

Don't let Darkmath see that website, or he'll never let go!

I think that website perhaps has some incomplete information. According to "Tigers in Combat I" (Wolfgang Schneider), the crews of 1. Kompanie/504. schwere Panzerabteilung did go to Vienna for 'familiarization training with the Tiger II' on 14 September 1944. It looks like what they really got was a break from the combat zone. Kompanie 1. isn't mentioned again until 30 November 1944, when they replaced the crews of 3. Kompanie in situ at a place named Lamone. The 3. Kompanie crews are then sent 'to the maintenance facility in Vienna', and do not reappear until the end of January 1945 when they return 'without tanks'.

A number of individual Tiger companies were rotated back for refitting during that time-frame: 3./503 sPzAbt. and 1./101 sSSPzAbt. both were pulled out of France for re-equipping with Tiger IIs in August. I would guess that 1./504 sPzAbt. went back for the same purpose, until someone came to their senses -- realized where they were deployed [italy] and decided that a 68 ton tank was not a good choice for the theater. (I note that didn't stop them from sending 1./653. sPzJgAbt. with their Elefants, however. Of course, in the wake of the Anzio landings, I imagine that all the stops were out.)

Mark

[slysniper]

http://64.26.50.215/armorsite/main.html

Here is the home page to that site, see if you think this research is good or if this is not correct information. I just thought the site seemed to be done by someone that has a good amount of knowledge for this period.

[Stan Hope Park]

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[ March 06, 2005, 08:51 AM: Message edited by: 1327 ]

[Bigduke6]

Absolutely. The Red Army would have become the proud owners of the entire Tiger inventory.

[V]

Originally posted by Bigduke6:

Absolutely. The Red Army would have become the proud owners of the entire Tiger inventory.

LMAO!

[Stan Hope Park]

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[ March 06, 2005, 08:52 AM: Message edited by: 1327 ]

[V]

Originally posted by CSO_Talorgan:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bigduke6:

Absolutely. The Red Army would have become the proud owners of the entire Tiger inventory.

... Meaning they would have been able to fight their way in to Stalingrad, but would not have been able to hold open a corridor for 6th Army to escape through and would have been out of fuel and ammo?

Judging by responses, you guys are obviously way ahead of me in your knowledge of this period, but of I don't ask, I won't learn.

Wasn't Von Paulus fobidden from breaking out? </font>

[Stan Hope Park]

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[ March 06, 2005, 08:53 AM: Message edited by: 1327 ]

[V]

From what I have read of the Tiger, it had some problems dealing with snow, and IIRC, "Wintergewitter" was carried out during a blizzard.

However, the Germans did pierce the outside ring of Soviet defenses and the 6th Army might have been able to fight its way towards Manstein's relief force, but, alas, Paulus refused to do so unless ordered by the Führer, sealing the fate of some 90,000 troops, over 2,000 officers and a couple dozen generals. I think only a few thousand of these men survived Soviet captivity long enough to ever see Germany again.

Paulus got a pretty good deal, though.

BTW, Manstein was in overall command of the relief offensive from his "Army Group Don," but you are right that Hoth was in command of three Panzer divisions entitled "Panzer group Hoth" or somesuch.

It was, IMHO, the most fascinating battle of the second world war.

[Ardem]

I just read a good book, called Tigers in the Mud.

Its about a Tiger Platoon Leader then Company Leader 502 Tiger Battalion Otto Carius he won the Knight Cross with Oak Leaves, by the end of the war.

He joined that in the beginning as the tigers rolled out but I seem to recall most of his unit was in training in Poland till 43.

But his section of the 502 mainly fought in the northern sector of russia. As far as respect rating he was as well respected as Guy Meyer at the time by the russians.

Although his book is fairly bitter especially to the West and his own nation. And I had a good only laugh at this thought of american tankers.

He thought 5 Russian Tankers are better then 30 American tankers. Its a interesting read especially about tiger tanks on the Eastern Front.

[Bigduke6]

Driving a battalion or two of heavy tanks through a Russian encirclement is not the same as re-establishing contact.

For ground resupply to work trucks have and carts have to be able to go in, and tired foot soldiers have to be able to walk out. That in turn means you need a corridor out of enemy observation, as if he does have observation he trashes whatever is moving in the corridor with artillery, never mind direct fire. So your corridor needs to be maybe three miles wide at absolute minimum, hopefully five miles wide, and really ten miles wide.

Could a couple of battalions of Tigers controlled a swath of the Russians steppe say some 30 square miles in size, and probably a lot more? Me, I doubt it, that would work out to less than a platoon of Tigers per square mile, and that's before the Tigers started breaking, getting stuck, and not even considering that they really could only have an effect during the day in reasonable visibility condidions. At night or during a snowstorm, unsupported, big tanks like that woudl have been close to dead meat for Russian infantry.

The way I figure it, the 80 - 100 Tigers would have driven around for about two weeks as fire brigades, killed some Russians, at the end of which time there would be about 20 Tigers still running, and there would be plenty of Russians.

As to Paulus, he got a lot of flak later on not just from Hitler for his behaviour. He was the general on the spot, and it was up to him to say "I need to break out now, this city fight is useless." He didn't until the very end, and then it only was in terms of "Save 6th Army or it will be destroyed." Never did he take the responsibility to stand up to the high command and say "We are losing this city fight, either end it or I quit."

Instead, Paulus decided to soldier on, grit his teeth, fight to nearly the last German infantryman, and generally have faith his men would prevail. v. Manstein is very harsh in his memoirs on Paulus. According to v. Manstein, Paulus avoided taking responsibility on himself, and was a major contributor towards the Stalingrad disaster.

[Leopard_2]

Erm... wasn't Paulus ordered to hold out, so to bind enemy forces that otherwise would have been free to hunt Heeresgruppe Süd?

(Just from memory right here, but this thread is the first time I read about Paulus deciding to stay put!)

[Andreas]

The relief effort never made it to 6miles (10km). It stopped 48km away from Stalingrad.

Paulus was ordered to stay put, but could of course have ignored the order. He chose not to.

It is however clear that the holding effort of 6.Armee tied down sufficient Soviet forces to make it possible for Army Group A to escape. The Soviets had a lot of trouble reducing the pocket while continuing their drive west, not least because they thought they had at most 90,000 men inside it.

OTOH, the Germans needed to choose between the relief effort, and making an attempt to stop the Red Armz rampaging through its rear areas (as 25th Tank Corps was about to do during the raid on Tatsinskaya). They had only (barely) sufficient forces for one or the other.

[V]

Originally posted by Leopard_2:

Erm... wasn't Paulus ordered to hold out, so to bind enemy forces that otherwise would have been free to hunt Heeresgruppe Süd?

(Just from memory right here, but this thread is the first time I read about Paulus deciding to stay put!)

Paulus was also ordered, directly from the Führer, not to surrender and to fight to the last man. Of course, he chose not to follow that order...

[Andreas]

He certainly was not prepared to fight to the last Field Marshall. Grenadiere however are a totally different matter.

[Richie]

I was under the impression that a large porion of the encircled army wasn't fit to travel. Lots of cases of frostbite, undernourished...

It's a long march on black and blue toes.

Breaking out even by then would have proved extremely difficult.

How did Napoleon's Army fair in it's retreat from Russia?

[Andreas]

Better than 6th Army by not breaking out. 6th Army lost 100% of its men, while Napoleon managed to salvage something.

[V]

Originally posted by Andreas:

Better than 6th Army by not breaking out. 6th Army lost 100% of its men, while Napoleon managed to salvage something.

Napoleon didn't have T-34's and IL2's on his ass, though...