Smoke a Gamey Russian Tactic

[Mad Russian]

I think for the most part that the use of smoke for cover is a gamey Russian tactic. I rarely read where the Russians advanced under the cover of smoke in the histories.

I don't think that the Red Army was supplied with smoke to the same degree that the Western Armies were.

Does anyone have any solid figures on this? :confused:

Panther Commander

[Amedeo]

I dare to say that the use of smoke as cover by Red Army units is underrepresented in CMBB, since Soviet AFVs were lavishly equipped with smoke generators that are not modelled in the game.

Regards,

Amedeo

[Sergei]

They also used smoke more not delivered by artillery but by infantry and pioneers. Totally missing from the game.

[dieseltaylor]

Gamey is what I consider is taking advantage of game design weaknesses.

If you mean that smoke is being used ahistorically then that is a different arguement. But then you would not expect me in early war to advance my light Russian armour in nice easy chunks to be killed - I have hindsight and a desire to do better. Ahistorical maybe but certainly a better game in that I use the same equipment but in a different manner and without exploiting any game flaws.

With regard to your readings on the use of smoke I am tempted to agree with you as I vaguely remember that this point being discussed before and it being said that doctrinally they did not use it much. But whether this answer applied to tactical situations but not to assaults I cannot recall.

In any event we as the "local" commanders should be allowed to play the situation as we see fit unless we have specific agreements with the other player. I am always dismayed when you see people saying no ubertanks, no planes, no snow, no night time etc which always seems to me to be against the whole idea of warfare which is to gain as much advantage in forces as you can, to win with minimal losses.

PS I love using smoke as Russians : )

[Paco QNS]

For example, in the smoke support portion of the deception plan for an assault crossing on the Dnieper in October 1943, smoke generation for the 65th Army was carefully planned and successfully executed simultaneously in thirteen sectors across thirty kilometers of the army front. The plan specified the purpose and location of the smoke screens, the expenditures of smoke resources, their readiness, and those responsible for executing the smoke operation. These smoke screens were used to blind German observation points, cover crossing sectors, and act as feigned points of attack. Previous Red Army combat experience in crossing water obstacles revealed the necessity for creating smoke screens at dummy crossing sites. But in order to successfully attract German attention, it was also necessary to increase troop activity and antiaircraft artillery fire at the dummy crossings. In the 65th Army's operation, a German rifle division attacked in the false smoke screen areas.

Total smoke support for the 65th Army included using 5,500 smoke pots, 2,000 smoke hand grenades, 2 tons of smoke-producing compound, and improvised smoke means (coniferous branches, damp brushwood, hay, and straw). The chiefs of chemical services for the rifle corps assumed responsibility for the execution of the smoke plan. The corps commanders indicated the placement of the smoke screens and their ignition times. As noted by General Pavel Ivanovich Batov, commander of the 65th Army, "This experience became a fine base for successfully overcoming many subsequent rivers, especially those like the Narev, Vistula and Oder."

(( Around the 26 footnote ))

Soviet Operational Deception: the Red Cloak by Lt Col Richard N. Armstrong

Though, note there is no reference to smoke arty ammo, but -only possibly- for the " 20.000 smoke cannisters" in the Table 1.

[Sergei]

As a note for scenario designers, fog or thick fog could be used for simulating this kind of environment.

[Mad Russian]

Originally posted by Amedeo:

I dare to say that the use of smoke as cover by Red Army units is underrepresented in CMBB, since Soviet AFVs were lavishly equipped with smoke generators that are not modelled in the game.

Regards,

Amedeo

Really, where on the vehicle were these tactical smoke generators. I have never seen a picture of one mounted on a Soviet AFV that I can remember.

I know, in the post war era, the Soviet AFV's had a device that allowed them to spray diesel fuel onto a hot surface to produce smoke. They must have developed the smoke ideas during the war. They did extensive studies after the war was over to determine the best possible way to fight the next one and to "finally" limit their losses.

Panther Commander

[Mad Russian]

Originally posted by Paco QNS:

(( Around the 26 footnote ))

Soviet Operational Deception: the Red Cloak by Lt Col Richard N. Armstrong

Though, note there is no reference to smoke arty ammo, but -only possibly- for the " 20.000 smoke cannisters" in the Table 1. [/QB]

[Agua]

Originally posted by Sergei:

They also used smoke more not delivered by artillery but by infantry and pioneers. Totally missing from the game.

Yep. One of the few modeling deficiencies of the game.

[Amedeo]

Originally posted by Panther Commander:

Really, where on the vehicle were these tactical smoke generators. I have never seen a picture of one mounted on a Soviet AFV that I can remember.

I know, in the post war era, the Soviet AFV's had a device that allowed them to spray diesel fuel onto a hot surface to produce smoke. They must have developed the smoke ideas during the war. They did extensive studies after the war was over to determine the best possible way to fight the next one and to "finally" limit their losses.

[/QB]

AFAIK those generators were equivalent to the postwar ones you're referring to.

I checked Karpenko's handbook on Soviet/Russian tanks, and I found that the smoke generator on the T-28 was the TDP-3, on the T-34-85 the MDSh (that was also used on the early T-54s) on the IS-1 and the IS-2 the DSh. The T-34-76 tanks seems not to be so equipped but I have a photo (probably taken in 1942) that depicts four T-34s laying a smoke screen to cover the following cavalry troopers (if you want, I can send it to you by email).

For what concernes the employment of smoke by the Red Army mobile forces, I can quote the combat regulations for Tank and Mechanized forces (1944).

Chapter 8 (THE OFFENSIVE) Paragraph 410

The brigade (regimental) commander clarifies whith the chief of chemical services of the division (corps):

1. the suitability of a smoke screen to cover the tank attack, the time location and signal for the start of the smoke screen, force and means for executing the smoke screen.

[...]

Chapter 11 (BREAKING COMBAT) Paragraph 664

[...] The most favourable conditions for breaking combat during the day are offered by uneven terrain profiles and smoke. The breaking of combat can be veiled by generated smoke.

Regards,

Amedeo

[Mad Russian]

Originally posted by Amedeo:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Panther Commander:

Really, where on the vehicle were these tactical smoke generators. I have never seen a picture of one mounted on a Soviet AFV that I can remember.

AFAIK those generators were equivalent to the postwar ones you're referring to.

I checked Karpenko's handbook on Soviet/Russian tanks, and I found that the smoke generator on the T-28 was the TDP-3, on the T-34-85 the MDSh (that was also used on the early T-54s) on the IS-1 and the IS-2 the DSh. The T-34-76 tanks seems not to be so equipped but I have a photo (probably taken in 1942) that depicts four T-34s laying a smoke screen to cover the following cavalry troopers (if you want, I can send it to you by email).

For what concernes the employment of smoke by the Red Army mobile forces, I can quote the combat regulations for Tank and Mechanized forces (1944).

Chapter 8 (THE OFFENSIVE) Paragraph 410

The brigade (regimental) commander clarifies whith the chief of chemical services of the division (corps):

1. the suitability of a smoke screen to cover the tank attack, the time location and signal for the start of the smoke screen, force and means for executing the smoke screen.

[...]

Chapter 11 (BREAKING COMBAT) Paragraph 664

[...] The most favourable conditions for breaking combat during the day are offered by uneven terrain profiles and smoke. The breaking of combat can be veiled by generated smoke.

Regards,

Amedeo [/QB]</font>

[John D Salt]

Originally posted by Paco QNS:

[snips]

Though, note there is no reference to smoke arty ammo, but -only possibly- for the " 20.000 smoke cannisters" in the Table 1.

Smoke rounds for artillery certainly existed. I have reference to TM 30-430, "Handbook on USSR Military Forces", War Department, Washington, November 1945.

Pages V-50 to V-51 list the primary and secondary missions of various kinds of Soviet artillery pieces. "Establishment of smoke screens" is listed as a secondary mission for 76mm divisional guns and 152mm howitzers, and and as a primary mission for 122mm howitzers.

Pages V-106, 107 and 112 have a paragraph entitled "Use of smoke", which I quote here in full:

"Soviet tactical doctrine stresses the employment of smoke to cover friendly troops as much as to blind enemy observation. Smoke is used to cover regroupment of forces, concentrations of troops, direction of the main effort, and all phases of large- and small-scale operations where the terrain affords little cover from enemy observation. It is also used to deceive the enemy by false smoke concentrations which cause him to waste ammunition and disclose his firing positions."

"The Red Army uses smoke concentrations over large areas for extended periods to cover major attacks; to protect vital installations such as rail-road bridges, assembly areas, and supply dumps from enemy aviation; to screen a counterattack; or to cover a withdrawal. The width of such a smoke screen varies from 2,500 to 3,500 tards. Roads leading to important locations and all orientation points in the proximity of targets are also covered with smoke to make their detection more difficult."

"Smoke, when used to cover a major attack, is coordinated with the principal phases of the assault. In the preparatory phase, smoke is used to cover the activities of the reconnaissance parties and obstacle-clearing detachments. During the assault phase, smoke is laid over the forward lines of the enemy. Care is taken not to blind friendly observation posts. In this phase, false concentrations of smoke are used to confuse the enemy as to the direction of the main effort. A smoke screen may be laid between the first and subsequent assault waves. During combat with the defense lines of the enemy, smoke is used to cover portions of the enemy position, to blind by-passed centers of resistance, or to blind stubbornly defended areas."

"Small-scale employment of smoke is an established practice in the Red Army. Smoke pots or smoke hand grenades are used to cover the actions of an individual soldier or a small unit, or to blind individual enemy observation posts or firing positions. Smoke is a valuable cover for individual riflemen or a small infantry unit during the advance toward enemy lines. Tank units use smoke not only to cover their advance from the assembly area to the deployment area and maneuvers within the enemy defense zone, but also for withdrawal from enemy fire. Smoke is also used to simulate tank losses, to screen the work of tank crews in repairing minor damage on the battlefield, and to facilitate the evacuation of damaged tanks under fire. Three to five smoke pots are used to screen the maneuvers of one tank."

"Judicious use of smoke can nullify efforts of the enemy when he uses smoke shells for registration fire."

Unfortunately I have never been able to find out what kind of smoke shells were issued to Soviet artillery. Does anyone know? Indeed, is there a good book available on WW2 Russian artillery?

All the best,

John.

[Amedeo]

For Panther Commander

The smoke generators you describe in T-62 and BMP were the later model TDA, systems used on the late war soviet tanks were smoke pots.

For John Salt

I presume you already have got such information, anyway if you're jyst looking for round designation have a look there:

http://www.battlefield.ru/guns/project_1.html

http://www.battlefield.ru/guns/project_2.html

http://www.battlefield.ru/guns/project_4.html

Regards,

Amedeo

[Mad Russian]

Originally posted by Amedeo:

For Panther Commander

...systems used on the late war soviet tanks were smoke pots.

Regards,

Amedeo

Where were they located? I don't see any listed in any of the literature I have on Soviet tanks. I don't see smoke pots hanging on them anywhere either. Not that you might without knowing where to look.

I know the Germans took the smoke candles off their tanks about mid-war. They were prone to be set off by enemy fire and that could in turn set the tank itself on fire. So in late war there are no German smoke candles dangling off their vehicles either. I am assuming that they replaced them with something, but I don't know what.

Panther Commander

[Amedeo]

Originally posted by Panther Commander:

Where were they located? I don't see any listed in any of the literature I have on Soviet tanks. I don't see smoke pots hanging on them anywhere either. Not that you might without knowing where to look.

Go to the last drawing (T-34-85, bottom of the page) and look for "BDSh"

http://www.battlefield.ru/t34_76_6.html

Regards,

Amedeo

[John D Salt]

Originally posted by Amedeo:

[snips]

For John Salt

I presume you already have got such information, anyway if you're jyst looking for round designation have a look there:

[snips]

What I really wanted to know was

1. Whether the Russians used bursting smoke, base-ejection, or both; and

2. What fillings they used.

As a rule, British and American artillery used bursting WP (white phosphorous) and base-ejection HC (hexachlorethane) rounds, and the Germans used pumice-oleum bursting rounds. I do not know what the French, Italians, Japanese or Russians used, and I'd like to know, as it seems fairly important.

TM 30-430 mentions (page IX 215) Soviet usage of a mixture of potassium chlorate, ammonium chloride and crude anthracene in their smoke pots and screening smoke candles. I would therefore conjecture that they used base-ejection shells filled with anthracene-mixture candles; but this is pure guesswork, unsupported by any documentary evidence.

It's a disgrace to the world of grogdom that hundreds of book titles are offered for sale on German tanks of WW2, and nary a single one on battlefield obscurants.

All the best,

John.

[MikeyD]

Smoke would no doubt be used en mass for major assaults like crossing rivers (Battalion level?), and around '44 you can see those smaller 'fuel tanks' on the rears of T34s that are actualy smoke generating equipment.

But it's certainly under represented in CMBB compared to CMAK and CMBO. I almost wept the first time i had to cross a big stretch of open ground in CMBB and found none of my available Russian forces had a single smoke shell to their name!

[Amedeo]

Originally posted by John D Salt:

What I really wanted to know was

1. Whether the Russians used bursting smoke, base-ejection, or both; and

2. What fillings they used.

John,

an excerpt from this book on Artillery (published by the NKO in 1938, the very same book that helped me to solve the 76mm canister "mystery")

http://www.artilleria.narod.ru/glava05.htm#025

seems to suggest that Soviet artillery smoke rounds were a variant of chemical shells, being bursting rounds filled with phosphorous.

Regards,

Amedeo

[Mad Russian]

Originally posted by Amedeo:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Panther Commander:

Where were they located? I don't see any listed in any of the literature I have on Soviet tanks. I don't see smoke pots hanging on them anywhere either. Not that you might without knowing where to look.

Go to the last drawing (T-34-85, bottom of the page) and look for "BDSh"

http://www.battlefield.ru/t34_76_6.html

Regards,

Amedeo </font>

[MikeyD]

On post-war T54s smoke was generated (rather efficiently) by dripping diesel oil onto the hot exhaust manifold. Considering those little rear-mounted oil drums were positioned either side of the exhaust that could possibly be how they did it with T34s as well. ...maybe

Another thought. In Western Front combat accounts Shermans are always firing smoke shells at enemy armor (probably because their AP wasn't much use!). I don't see many Eastern Front combat accounts where a T34 hits a Panther with a smoke shell in order to escape an engagement. I believe BFC got this one right, smoke wasn't issued for Soviet tanks in the same manner as Brit and American tanks.

[ August 03, 2004, 07:34 AM: Message edited by: MikeyD ]

[Amedeo]

Originally posted by MikeyD:

On post-war T54s smoke was generated (rather efficiently) by dripping diesel oil onto the hot exhaust manifold. Considering those little rear-mounted oil drums were positioned either side of the exhaust that could possibly be how they did it with T34s as well. ...maybe

Actually the first to use this system (TDA) was the T-55 tank. T-54s used smoke pots as in late war tanks.

Another thought. In Western Front combat accounts Shermans are always firing smoke shells at enemy armor (probably because their AP wasn't much use!). I don't see many Eastern Front combat accounts where a T34 hits a Panther with a smoke shell in order to escape an engagement. I believe BFC got this one right, smoke wasn't issued for Soviet tanks in the same manner as Brit and American tanks.

In fact Soviet tanks were not issued smoke rounds at all. And this is correctly modelled in CMBB.

Regards,

Amedeo

[Amedeo]

Originally posted by Panther Commander:

Wish there was a front view of it. Can't tell if it is the large round item or the small pointed one. Also noticed that there is no equivalent item on either of the T-34/76 models shown.

It should be the cylindrical item (as the two on the rear of this IS-3).

In fact the T-34-76 is not listed as equipped with such devices. Anyway, as I said previously I have a photo of some T-34s in 1942 screening with smoke some cavalry troops advancing. Thus I resume that smoke pots were fitted as field modifications or such during the war and late war models had this feature built in.

Regards,

Amedeo

[Mad Russian]

Amedeo, thanks that is a very good picture of the smoke device. This begins to clear up some things...so to speak. Thanks for all the input. I was not aware that the Soviets didn't issue smoke rounds to their armor.

Did the big assault guns have them? SU/ISU-76/122/152?

Panther Commander

[MikeyD]

If you troll for Russian Army photos you'll find a number of VERY late war T-34s carrying those smoke drums (T-34-85s and a few late T34-76 M43s), and postwar IS-2s and IS-3s. I'm not entirely sure they were used by the heavies during the war, though.

The Russian assault guns carrying those big artilllery pieces could of course fire the normal artilery smoke round. One supposes the T34-76 could fire 76mm artillery smoke as well. I don't know if they were ever issued any, especially considereing the already limited ammo loadout on the big SUs..