michael kenny Posted March 3, 2007 Share Posted March 3, 2007 An old map of Kronstadt but you see its key position. Both Finnish and German forces beseiging Lenningrad were within range of the Marat's guns modern view: http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/commonwealth/leningrad_area78.jpg 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael kenny Posted March 3, 2007 Share Posted March 3, 2007 An old map of Kronstadt but you see its key position. Both Finnish and German forces beseiging Lenningrad were within range of the Marat's guns modern view: http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/commonwealth/leningrad_area78.jpg 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted March 3, 2007 Share Posted March 3, 2007 Originally posted by Tero: Originally posted by Andreas: And they were hit by numerous torpedoes. But of course, I am sure they would have sunk even more if they had been hit with dive-bombing attacks. You simpy can not admit that it is remotely possible I might possibly have a case and all your reasoning can not fully support your case about the Marat kill credit for Rudel being totally without merit. And you simply have to invent things I never said to have an argument. Why? Are you just sad that way, are you too dumb to read what I write, or do you enjoy trying to intentionally stir things up? All the best Andreas 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted March 3, 2007 Share Posted March 3, 2007 Originally posted by Tero: Originally posted by Andreas: And they were hit by numerous torpedoes. But of course, I am sure they would have sunk even more if they had been hit with dive-bombing attacks. You simpy can not admit that it is remotely possible I might possibly have a case and all your reasoning can not fully support your case about the Marat kill credit for Rudel being totally without merit. And you simply have to invent things I never said to have an argument. Why? Are you just sad that way, are you too dumb to read what I write, or do you enjoy trying to intentionally stir things up? All the best Andreas 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tero Posted March 3, 2007 Share Posted March 3, 2007 Google Earth gave the distance from Eastern part of Kronstadt to the Finnish lines as ~25 km (at the old border in Terijoki). With 30km range the guns would have reached max 10 km inland. I have not seen any data in Finnish sources about Marat being a particular pest to the troops guarding the old border at the coast. I could not Google a proper map for the Oranienbaum pocket so it is hard to say where the Marat guns would have reached there. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tero Posted March 3, 2007 Share Posted March 3, 2007 Google Earth gave the distance from Eastern part of Kronstadt to the Finnish lines as ~25 km (at the old border in Terijoki). With 30km range the guns would have reached max 10 km inland. I have not seen any data in Finnish sources about Marat being a particular pest to the troops guarding the old border at the coast. I could not Google a proper map for the Oranienbaum pocket so it is hard to say where the Marat guns would have reached there. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted March 3, 2007 Share Posted March 3, 2007 Originally posted by Tero: Perhaps the reason more effort was not made to silence her because it would have been redundant as her fire was not doing any undue damage to the siege troops. I have already posted how she was taken under fire by heavy German artillery after she was 'sunk'. Just read the thread. It appears there was another major air attack on Baltic Fleet units on 4/4/42, Operation Eisstoss, but it is unclear whether this was aimed at Kronstadt and Leningrad, or just Leningrad. http://www.waffenhq.de/specials/ops-ww2_axis.html All the best Andreas 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted March 3, 2007 Share Posted March 3, 2007 Originally posted by Tero: Perhaps the reason more effort was not made to silence her because it would have been redundant as her fire was not doing any undue damage to the siege troops. I have already posted how she was taken under fire by heavy German artillery after she was 'sunk'. Just read the thread. It appears there was another major air attack on Baltic Fleet units on 4/4/42, Operation Eisstoss, but it is unclear whether this was aimed at Kronstadt and Leningrad, or just Leningrad. http://www.waffenhq.de/specials/ops-ww2_axis.html All the best Andreas 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hetzer38 Posted March 3, 2007 Share Posted March 3, 2007 I've updated the (incomplete) list of german WWII top anti-tank "kill-claimers"...have a look... Anton Hübsch - RK 08/08/44 - Oberfeldwebel - 2./SG 2 - 1060FF - +120 tanks Gerhard Stüdemann - EL 28/03/45 - Hauptmann-9./St.G 77 - 996FF - 117 tanks Alois Wosnitza - RK 26/02/44 -- Oberfeldwebel - SG 77 - 1217FF 104 tanks Hendrik Stahl - EL 24/05/44 -- Hauptmann - 8./ SG 2 - +1000FF - +100 tanks Jakob Jenster - RK 29/02/44 -- Leutnant -St.G1,St.G2 - 960FF - 100 tanks Anton Korol - RK 12/03/45 - Leutnant -St.G2,10. (Pz)/ SG2 - +700FF - POW - 99 tanks Wilhelm Joswig - RK 29/02/44 - Oberleutnant-9./St.G2 - 820FF - 88 tanks Max Diepold - RK 28/03/45 - Oberleutnant-10.(Pz.)/S.G. 77 - POW - 87 tanks Wilhelm Noller - RK 06/04(44 - Leutnant-2./ SG 2 - 1058FF - 86 tanks Hans Ludwig - RK 08/08/44 -- Feldwebel-10. (Pz) / SG 2 -- + 19.01.1945 - 750FF - 85 tanks Heinz Edhofer - RK 30/11/44 - Oberfeldwebel -St.G2,SG2 - 600FF - KIA 01.04.1945 - 84 tanks Siegfried Fischer - RK 28/02/45 15 - Oberfeldwebel -StG1,SG1 - 713FF - POW - 80 tanks Theodor Nordmann - EL 16/03/43 - Major-II./SG1 - +1111FF - 80 tanks Kurt Plenzat - EL 24/01/45 - Leutnant-2./SG2 - 1.234FF - ~80 tanks Rudolf-Heinz Ruffer - RK 09/06/44 - Hauptmann-10. (Pz) / SG 9 -- + 16.07.1944 - 80 tanks Hans-Joachim Jäschke - RK26/03/44 - Oberleutnant-4./SG1 - +553FF - 78 tanks Helmut Hannemann - Oberleutnant-10.(Pz)/SG 2, Stab/SG 2 - 77 tanks Wilhelm Bromen - RK 16/04/43 - Oberleutnant-7 4/StG 2, SG 151, I(Pz)/SG 9 Pölz, Hubert Hptm. 76 11 6/StG 2, 6/StG 3, 7/StG 3, I/SG 151 - 965FF - 76 tanks Kurt Lau - RK 06/04/44 - Hauptmann-1./St.G 2 - POW - 897FF - ~75 tanks Rainer Nossek - RK 29/10/44 - Oberleutnant-StG 2, SG 2, SG 3, SG 9 - ~800FF - +73 tanks Gustav Schubert - EL 24/10/44 - Oberleutnant-3 I/StG 1, III/StG 1, 9/SG - 1.089FF +70 tanks Otto Ritz - RK 30/12/44 2 Feldwebel-10.(Pz.) / SG 9 -- KIA 12.02.1945 - 70 tanks Hans-Hermann Steinkamp - RK 24/10/44 -- Oberleutnant-14. (Pz.) / SG 9 -- POW - 70 tanks Johann Klaus - RK 26/03/44 - Oberleutnant-2 StG 1, SG 1 - 812FF +65 tanks Werner Fehdler - Oberfeldwebel-10.(Pz)/SG 2 - 65 tanks Erwin-Peter Diekwisch - RK 15/10/42 - Hauptmann-9/StG 1, III/StG 1, I/SG 5, III/KG 200 - 934FF - 64 tanks Otto Schmidt - RK 03/09/42 - Hauptmann-7./St.G 77 - 61 tanks Josef Blümel - RK 28/01/45 - Feldwebel-10.(Pz)/SG 3 - KIA 19.09.1944 - 60 tanks Andreas Kuffner - EL 20/12/44 - Hauptmann-10.(Pz.)/SG 3 - +900FF - 60 tanks Martin Möbus - EL 27/04/44 - Major-1St.G5 - +800FF - 60 tanks Willy Tritsch - RK 23/12/42 20 - Feldwebel-1./SG 1 - ~580FF - POW - 60 tanks Alfred Gies - RK 16/12/44 -- Oberfeldwebel-1./SG 2 - POW - 54 tanks Herbert Bauer - EL 30/09/44 - Hauptmann-I./SG2 - 1071FF - 51 tanks Egon Stoll-Berberich - RK 29/02/44 - Hauptmann-St.G. 2, JG 51, St.G. 1, SG 151 -734FF - +50 tanks Georg Dornemann - RK 24/10/44 -- Oberleutnant-5./Sch.G 1 / 8.(Pz)/Sch.G 2 / 13.(Pz)/SG 9 - +300FF - 50 tanks Franz Oswald - RK 24/10/44 -- Hauptmann-13.(Pz)/SG9 - +300FF - POW - 50 tanks Franz Roka - RK 09/10/43 - Oberleutnant-6./St.G 1 - + 21.10.1943 - 50 tanks Bruno Meyer - RK 21/08/41 - Hauptmann- LG 2, Sch.G. 2, SG 9, SG 104 - ~50 tanks Karl Bleckl - RK 03/11/42 - Hauptmann-St.G. 1, St.G. 101, SG 101, SG 4 - +48 tanks Hermann Buchner - RK 20/07/44 - Leutnant-Sch.G. 1, SG 2, SG 154, JG 7 - 46 tanks Josef Huber - RK 20/07/44 -- Oberfeldwebel-SG6 - 721FF - 46 tanks Anton Andorfer - Hauptmann-St.G. 77, SG 77 - +45 tanks Hartmut Vogt - Oberleutnant - SG 3, SG 77 - 41 tanks Heinz Meyer - RK 17/04/45 -- Oberfähnrich-8./SG 2 -- POW - 40 tanks Ulrich Mundt - RK 25/11/44 - Oberfeldwebel-10. (Pz) / SG 1 -- + 29.01.1945 - 40 tanks Heinz Seiffert - RK 31/12/43 - Oberleutnant-KG 3, JG 54 - 37 tanks Otto Heinrich - RK 20/07/44 - Oberfeldwebel-St.G. 77, SKG 10 - 35 tanks Herbert Dawedeit - RK 29/02/44 - Leutnant-St.G. 77, SG 111, SGr.200 - +34 tanks Wolfgang Ensle - RK 08/08/44 -- Feldwebel-3./SG 2 -- 34 tanks Otto Hulsch - RK 05/02/44 -- Oberleutnant-8./SG 1 - KIA 16.01.1945 - 34 tanks Hans Luhr - RK 29/02/44 - Oberfeldwebel-St.G77,St.G102 - ~850FF - + 20.09.1944 - 33 tanks Adolf Weiß - RK 29/02/44 - Oberfeldwebel-St.G. 77, SG 151 - 869FF -+32 tanks Karl Janke - RK 16/11/42 - Hauptmann-7./St.G 2 - POW - 32 tanks Ernst Orzegowski - RK 14/01/45 - Feldwebel-SG77,SG10 - 682FF - 31 tanks Hans Steinwachs - RK 05/02/44 -- Hauptmann-St.G1,SG1,SG151 - ~600FF - MIA - 31 tanks Werner Honsberg - Oberfeldwebel-St.G. 77, SG 77, SG 151- 30 tanks Wilfried Herling - RK 07/04/43 - Hauptmann- St.G. 2, SG 2 - +26 tanks Erhard Jähnert - RK 18/05/43 - Hauptmann-St.G. 2, St.G. 3, SG 3 - +25tanks Erich Peter - RK 22/07/42 - Oberfeldwebel-St.G. 2, SG 151 - 25 tanks Eduard Tratt - EL 26/03/44 - Major-ZG 1, Erpr.Gr.210, SKG 210, ZG 26, ZG 2 - 350FF - 24 tanks Peter Gaßmann - RK 25/05/1942 - Major-III./SG 1 - +800FF - 24 tanks Siegfried Huber - RK 03/04/43 - Oberfeldwebel-St.G. 2 - 24 tanks Willi Viertel - RK 05/02/44 - Hauptmann-7./St.G 1 - + 31.08.1943 - 24 tanks Herbert Piske - RK 15/03/45 - Oberleutnant-3./SG 10 - 23 tanks Hans Peterburs - RK 25/11/42 - Oberfeldwebel-ZG 1, ZG 76, SKG 210, SG 4 - +19 tanks Heinz Graber - RK 19/06/42 - Leutnant-St.G. 2 - +19 tanks Horst Schiller - RK 09/06/44 -- Major-I./St.G 3 -- + 02.06.1943 - 17 tanks Rudolf Trenn - RK 25/05/43 -- Oberleutnant-8./SG 77 - KIA 16.04.1943 - 17 tanks Arnold Döring - RK 17/04/45 - Leutnant-KG 53, KG 55 - 16 tanks Erich Hanne - RK 13/08/42 - Leutnant-7./St.G 1 -- KIA 05.09.1942 - 16 tanks Johannes Lutter - RK 05/10/41 - Hauptmann-ZG 1, ZG 76, SKG 210, ZG 2, SKG 10, SG 4 - +15 tanks Hans-Adolf Meyer - RK 06/04/44 - Oberleutnant-St.G. 1, St.G. 3, SG 3 - - +12 tanks Peter Jenne - RK 02/02/45 - Hauptmann-ZG 1, ZG 26, JG 300 - 12 tanks Udo Cordes - RK 12/06/43 - Oberleutnant-9.(Eis)/KG 3, SG 2 - +11 tanks Karl Spreitzer - RK 01/04/45 -- Leutnant-10.(Pz)/SG2 - 11 tanks August Lambert - Oberleutnant-Sch.G 1, SG 2, SG 77 - +10 tanks Ernst-Wilhelm Reinert - RK 01/07/42 - Hauptmann-JG 77, JG 27, JG 7 - 10 tanks Alwin Boerst - EL 28/11/42 - Major-I./SG2 - 1060FF - 6 tanks Friedrich Platzer - RK 05/04/42 - Oberleutnant-3./St.G 2 - + 16.03.1942 - 6 tanks ...thats 3843 tanks, add Rudel's 519 and we have a total of 4363 tanks being claimed... (...at least those that I'm aware of...) Cheers, Hetzer. sources: Ritterkreuz-Index Ritterkreuzträger Tank Killers Top Tank Killers Dive Bomber and Ground-Attack Aces Edit: Added two dozen (or so) pilots to the list... ...added the numbers of Feindflüge (FF) for twenty (or so) pilots... ...added Georg Dornemann - RK 24/10/44 -- Oberleutnant-5./Sch.G 1 / 8.(Pz)/Sch.G 2 / 13.(Pz)/SG 9 - +300FF - 50 tanks... [ March 18, 2007, 11:08 AM: Message edited by: Hetzer38 ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hetzer38 Posted March 3, 2007 Share Posted March 3, 2007 I've updated the (incomplete) list of german WWII top anti-tank "kill-claimers"...have a look... Anton Hübsch - RK 08/08/44 - Oberfeldwebel - 2./SG 2 - 1060FF - +120 tanks Gerhard Stüdemann - EL 28/03/45 - Hauptmann-9./St.G 77 - 996FF - 117 tanks Alois Wosnitza - RK 26/02/44 -- Oberfeldwebel - SG 77 - 1217FF 104 tanks Hendrik Stahl - EL 24/05/44 -- Hauptmann - 8./ SG 2 - +1000FF - +100 tanks Jakob Jenster - RK 29/02/44 -- Leutnant -St.G1,St.G2 - 960FF - 100 tanks Anton Korol - RK 12/03/45 - Leutnant -St.G2,10. (Pz)/ SG2 - +700FF - POW - 99 tanks Wilhelm Joswig - RK 29/02/44 - Oberleutnant-9./St.G2 - 820FF - 88 tanks Max Diepold - RK 28/03/45 - Oberleutnant-10.(Pz.)/S.G. 77 - POW - 87 tanks Wilhelm Noller - RK 06/04(44 - Leutnant-2./ SG 2 - 1058FF - 86 tanks Hans Ludwig - RK 08/08/44 -- Feldwebel-10. (Pz) / SG 2 -- + 19.01.1945 - 750FF - 85 tanks Heinz Edhofer - RK 30/11/44 - Oberfeldwebel -St.G2,SG2 - 600FF - KIA 01.04.1945 - 84 tanks Siegfried Fischer - RK 28/02/45 15 - Oberfeldwebel -StG1,SG1 - 713FF - POW - 80 tanks Theodor Nordmann - EL 16/03/43 - Major-II./SG1 - +1111FF - 80 tanks Kurt Plenzat - EL 24/01/45 - Leutnant-2./SG2 - 1.234FF - ~80 tanks Rudolf-Heinz Ruffer - RK 09/06/44 - Hauptmann-10. (Pz) / SG 9 -- + 16.07.1944 - 80 tanks Hans-Joachim Jäschke - RK26/03/44 - Oberleutnant-4./SG1 - +553FF - 78 tanks Helmut Hannemann - Oberleutnant-10.(Pz)/SG 2, Stab/SG 2 - 77 tanks Wilhelm Bromen - RK 16/04/43 - Oberleutnant-7 4/StG 2, SG 151, I(Pz)/SG 9 Pölz, Hubert Hptm. 76 11 6/StG 2, 6/StG 3, 7/StG 3, I/SG 151 - 965FF - 76 tanks Kurt Lau - RK 06/04/44 - Hauptmann-1./St.G 2 - POW - 897FF - ~75 tanks Rainer Nossek - RK 29/10/44 - Oberleutnant-StG 2, SG 2, SG 3, SG 9 - ~800FF - +73 tanks Gustav Schubert - EL 24/10/44 - Oberleutnant-3 I/StG 1, III/StG 1, 9/SG - 1.089FF +70 tanks Otto Ritz - RK 30/12/44 2 Feldwebel-10.(Pz.) / SG 9 -- KIA 12.02.1945 - 70 tanks Hans-Hermann Steinkamp - RK 24/10/44 -- Oberleutnant-14. (Pz.) / SG 9 -- POW - 70 tanks Johann Klaus - RK 26/03/44 - Oberleutnant-2 StG 1, SG 1 - 812FF +65 tanks Werner Fehdler - Oberfeldwebel-10.(Pz)/SG 2 - 65 tanks Erwin-Peter Diekwisch - RK 15/10/42 - Hauptmann-9/StG 1, III/StG 1, I/SG 5, III/KG 200 - 934FF - 64 tanks Otto Schmidt - RK 03/09/42 - Hauptmann-7./St.G 77 - 61 tanks Josef Blümel - RK 28/01/45 - Feldwebel-10.(Pz)/SG 3 - KIA 19.09.1944 - 60 tanks Andreas Kuffner - EL 20/12/44 - Hauptmann-10.(Pz.)/SG 3 - +900FF - 60 tanks Martin Möbus - EL 27/04/44 - Major-1St.G5 - +800FF - 60 tanks Willy Tritsch - RK 23/12/42 20 - Feldwebel-1./SG 1 - ~580FF - POW - 60 tanks Alfred Gies - RK 16/12/44 -- Oberfeldwebel-1./SG 2 - POW - 54 tanks Herbert Bauer - EL 30/09/44 - Hauptmann-I./SG2 - 1071FF - 51 tanks Egon Stoll-Berberich - RK 29/02/44 - Hauptmann-St.G. 2, JG 51, St.G. 1, SG 151 -734FF - +50 tanks Georg Dornemann - RK 24/10/44 -- Oberleutnant-5./Sch.G 1 / 8.(Pz)/Sch.G 2 / 13.(Pz)/SG 9 - +300FF - 50 tanks Franz Oswald - RK 24/10/44 -- Hauptmann-13.(Pz)/SG9 - +300FF - POW - 50 tanks Franz Roka - RK 09/10/43 - Oberleutnant-6./St.G 1 - + 21.10.1943 - 50 tanks Bruno Meyer - RK 21/08/41 - Hauptmann- LG 2, Sch.G. 2, SG 9, SG 104 - ~50 tanks Karl Bleckl - RK 03/11/42 - Hauptmann-St.G. 1, St.G. 101, SG 101, SG 4 - +48 tanks Hermann Buchner - RK 20/07/44 - Leutnant-Sch.G. 1, SG 2, SG 154, JG 7 - 46 tanks Josef Huber - RK 20/07/44 -- Oberfeldwebel-SG6 - 721FF - 46 tanks Anton Andorfer - Hauptmann-St.G. 77, SG 77 - +45 tanks Hartmut Vogt - Oberleutnant - SG 3, SG 77 - 41 tanks Heinz Meyer - RK 17/04/45 -- Oberfähnrich-8./SG 2 -- POW - 40 tanks Ulrich Mundt - RK 25/11/44 - Oberfeldwebel-10. (Pz) / SG 1 -- + 29.01.1945 - 40 tanks Heinz Seiffert - RK 31/12/43 - Oberleutnant-KG 3, JG 54 - 37 tanks Otto Heinrich - RK 20/07/44 - Oberfeldwebel-St.G. 77, SKG 10 - 35 tanks Herbert Dawedeit - RK 29/02/44 - Leutnant-St.G. 77, SG 111, SGr.200 - +34 tanks Wolfgang Ensle - RK 08/08/44 -- Feldwebel-3./SG 2 -- 34 tanks Otto Hulsch - RK 05/02/44 -- Oberleutnant-8./SG 1 - KIA 16.01.1945 - 34 tanks Hans Luhr - RK 29/02/44 - Oberfeldwebel-St.G77,St.G102 - ~850FF - + 20.09.1944 - 33 tanks Adolf Weiß - RK 29/02/44 - Oberfeldwebel-St.G. 77, SG 151 - 869FF -+32 tanks Karl Janke - RK 16/11/42 - Hauptmann-7./St.G 2 - POW - 32 tanks Ernst Orzegowski - RK 14/01/45 - Feldwebel-SG77,SG10 - 682FF - 31 tanks Hans Steinwachs - RK 05/02/44 -- Hauptmann-St.G1,SG1,SG151 - ~600FF - MIA - 31 tanks Werner Honsberg - Oberfeldwebel-St.G. 77, SG 77, SG 151- 30 tanks Wilfried Herling - RK 07/04/43 - Hauptmann- St.G. 2, SG 2 - +26 tanks Erhard Jähnert - RK 18/05/43 - Hauptmann-St.G. 2, St.G. 3, SG 3 - +25tanks Erich Peter - RK 22/07/42 - Oberfeldwebel-St.G. 2, SG 151 - 25 tanks Eduard Tratt - EL 26/03/44 - Major-ZG 1, Erpr.Gr.210, SKG 210, ZG 26, ZG 2 - 350FF - 24 tanks Peter Gaßmann - RK 25/05/1942 - Major-III./SG 1 - +800FF - 24 tanks Siegfried Huber - RK 03/04/43 - Oberfeldwebel-St.G. 2 - 24 tanks Willi Viertel - RK 05/02/44 - Hauptmann-7./St.G 1 - + 31.08.1943 - 24 tanks Herbert Piske - RK 15/03/45 - Oberleutnant-3./SG 10 - 23 tanks Hans Peterburs - RK 25/11/42 - Oberfeldwebel-ZG 1, ZG 76, SKG 210, SG 4 - +19 tanks Heinz Graber - RK 19/06/42 - Leutnant-St.G. 2 - +19 tanks Horst Schiller - RK 09/06/44 -- Major-I./St.G 3 -- + 02.06.1943 - 17 tanks Rudolf Trenn - RK 25/05/43 -- Oberleutnant-8./SG 77 - KIA 16.04.1943 - 17 tanks Arnold Döring - RK 17/04/45 - Leutnant-KG 53, KG 55 - 16 tanks Erich Hanne - RK 13/08/42 - Leutnant-7./St.G 1 -- KIA 05.09.1942 - 16 tanks Johannes Lutter - RK 05/10/41 - Hauptmann-ZG 1, ZG 76, SKG 210, ZG 2, SKG 10, SG 4 - +15 tanks Hans-Adolf Meyer - RK 06/04/44 - Oberleutnant-St.G. 1, St.G. 3, SG 3 - - +12 tanks Peter Jenne - RK 02/02/45 - Hauptmann-ZG 1, ZG 26, JG 300 - 12 tanks Udo Cordes - RK 12/06/43 - Oberleutnant-9.(Eis)/KG 3, SG 2 - +11 tanks Karl Spreitzer - RK 01/04/45 -- Leutnant-10.(Pz)/SG2 - 11 tanks August Lambert - Oberleutnant-Sch.G 1, SG 2, SG 77 - +10 tanks Ernst-Wilhelm Reinert - RK 01/07/42 - Hauptmann-JG 77, JG 27, JG 7 - 10 tanks Alwin Boerst - EL 28/11/42 - Major-I./SG2 - 1060FF - 6 tanks Friedrich Platzer - RK 05/04/42 - Oberleutnant-3./St.G 2 - + 16.03.1942 - 6 tanks ...thats 3843 tanks, add Rudel's 519 and we have a total of 4363 tanks being claimed... (...at least those that I'm aware of...) Cheers, Hetzer. sources: Ritterkreuz-Index Ritterkreuzträger Tank Killers Top Tank Killers Dive Bomber and Ground-Attack Aces Edit: Added two dozen (or so) pilots to the list... ...added the numbers of Feindflüge (FF) for twenty (or so) pilots... ...added Georg Dornemann - RK 24/10/44 -- Oberleutnant-5./Sch.G 1 / 8.(Pz)/Sch.G 2 / 13.(Pz)/SG 9 - +300FF - 50 tanks... [ March 18, 2007, 11:08 AM: Message edited by: Hetzer38 ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hetzer38 Posted March 3, 2007 Share Posted March 3, 2007 And just to keep 'em close to the list, here are the few other bios I've already posted earlier... Anton Korol - Leutnant * 08.10.1916 Breitenmarkt/Oberschlesien RK 12.03.1945 as Leutnant after 600 FF One of the best "Tank hunters" of SG 2 "Immelmann". He took part in the Polish campaign as Uffz. with 10./Inf.Rgt. 7. The French campaign saw him with 2./Inf.Rgt. 417 where he was promoted to Feldwebel on 14.03.1941. As an "old" glider flyer he volunteered for LW and changed from Heer to LW on 16.07.1941. He was trained as pilot and transferred to Stuka-Vorschule Graz and the to Stuka-Schule 2 at Piacenza-Foggia(italy). 01.11.1942 promoted to Leutnant der Reserve. 1943 he was with Erg.Staffel St.G. 2 and II./ST.G. 151. In combat from 01.07.1943-31.08.1944 with 3./St.G.2 (later 3./SG 2) "Immelmann" at the eastern front. 11.07.1943 first combat mission (FF) in the area of Charkow: 500. FF on 22.08.1944 in the area of Jassy(Romania). In March 1944 he destroyed with Hptm. Meyering and another pilot (N.N.) a strategically important bridge over the river Bug in the area north of Perwomaisk in spite of heavy Flak fire with all three a/c hitting the target. 13.06.1944 Deutsches Kreuz in Gold. Because of his outstanding achievements he was appointed Staffelkapitän of 10.(Pz.)/SG 2, which he led until wars end with great success. 704 combat missions 4 times he was shot down 99 confirmed tank kills with "Kanonenmaschinen" - Ju 87G, one of those being a "Stalinpanzer" (IS-2) ~200 tanks heavily damaged or disabled. Hans-Joachim Jäschke - Oberleutnant *18.07.1921 Niesky/ Schlesien RK 26.03.1944 as Oberleutnant after 553 Feindflügen (combat missions) There is not much known about this Stuka - and Schlachtflieger ace. Since the beginning of 1942 he flew with II./StG 1 (later II./SG 1) at the Ostfront and lead the 4th Staffel from 1944 until his death. He recieved the Ehrenpokal on 21.09.1942 and the German Cross in Gold on 02.08.1943 as Leutnant. He was awarded the RK for following achievements (among others): 78 tanks, 27 guns, over 100 trucks and 11 bridges destroyed. On 21.07.1944 while strafing troops with his Fw 190 F-8 on the street of Kleszcsele (Hungary) and westward, he was shot down by Flak and hit in the fuel tank. Crashing from 1000m height and burning on the ground (senkrecht, brennend abgestürzt) Exact combat mission count unknown, at least 600 mostly with Ju 87. Andreas Kuffner - Hauptmann *30.05.1918 in Deisenhofen/Oberbayern RK 16.04.1943 as Oberleutnant after 600 combat missions EL (No. 684) 20.12.1944 as hauptmann after 745 combat missions and approx. 60 tank kills 1937 he joined the Luftwaffe. He took part in the French campaign as Wachtmeister with a light Flak battery and recieved the EK II on 22.06.1940. Back in 1939 he had volunteered for pilot training but he was not accepted before August 1940 when he was sent to a Flugzeugführerschule. After his training in December 1941 he joined I./StG 2 in january 1942 at the northern sector of the Ostfront. Just 3 months later he had accumulated 200 combat missions. Since spring 1942 deployed to the southern sector. On 25.05.1942 he recieved the Ehrenpokal and in September 1942 the DKiG. In autumn 1942 he was wounded in air-combat and had to force land at the own Panzerspitzen. Until December he was in the homeland, afterwards Staffelführer of 4./StG.2 back in the east (Ukraine, Donez, Krim, Kuban Bridge Head). After 600 FF transferred to III./SG 151, which flew in the croatian area Bandeneinsätze (COIN). In February 44 as Staffelkapitän assigned with the deployment of 10.(Pz.)/SG 3 which he led with great success on almost all front areas 04.08.1944 named in OKW report (namentliche Nennung im OKW Bericht). 01.09.1944 promoted to Hauptmann. 25.09.1944 his Staffel destroyed their 300th tank since deployment. 22.10.1944 he destroyed his 50th tank with Ju 87 G. Since January 1945 Gruppenkommandeur I.(Pz.)/SG 9 30.04.1945 he was shot down and killed over Sülte near Schwerin by a Spitfire. On the same occasion both Staffelkapitäne(RK reciepients) were shot down: Rainer Nossek (killed) and Wilhelm Bromen (badly wounded). He had a total of more than 900 combat missions as Stuka-and Panzerschlachtflieger. More than 60 tank kills. Josef Blümel - Feldwebel * 15.08.1920 Prode/Kreis Trautenau (Sudeten) RK 28.01.1945 as Feldwebel posthumously He joined Lw in autumn 1940 and was trained as pilot. Though, he only made his first combat missions in April 1944 on the Krim (Crimean Peninsula) when he came from 5./SG 151 as Unteroffizier to the newly mustered 10.(Pz.)/SG 3 (which flew anti tank missions for the first time in april 44). Within a short time he became one of the best tank hunters and most successful Schwarmführer of the Panzerjagdstaffel of SG 3. He destroyed his 34th tank on 28.07.1944 and was promoted to Feldwebel with effect from 01.07.1944. On his 123rd combat mission he would destroy 2 tanks for his 52nd and 53rd tank kills. His 59th followed on the 17.09.1944. On the 19.09.1944 Blümel had a combat mission between 9.20-10.00hrs which brought his 60th tank kill. On the 2nd mission at 11.10 his Ju 87 G-2 (WNr. 494231) was heavily damaged by Soviet FlaMG and he had to crash-land his plane behind enemy lines. After the emergency landing near Kekava (18km south of Riga) Blümel and his Bordfunker Obergefreiter Hermann Schwärzel were executed (Obermeier wrote murdered) but shot in the neck from Russians (Soviet soldiers? not all were Russians). 3 days later they were found by a search squad consisting of Heer troops and members of the Panzerjagdstaffel under the leadership of Hptm. Kuffner in the meanwhile had retaken the crash location. They were buried with military honors. Ehrenpokal and DKiG were awarded posthumously on 28.and 29.09.1944. total of approx. 150 combat missions as Panzerjäger with Ju 87: 60 tanks destroyed-> from Axis History Forum... Cheers, Hetzer. [ March 04, 2007, 04:15 AM: Message edited by: Hetzer38 ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hetzer38 Posted March 3, 2007 Share Posted March 3, 2007 And just to keep 'em close to the list, here are the few other bios I've already posted earlier... Anton Korol - Leutnant * 08.10.1916 Breitenmarkt/Oberschlesien RK 12.03.1945 as Leutnant after 600 FF One of the best "Tank hunters" of SG 2 "Immelmann". He took part in the Polish campaign as Uffz. with 10./Inf.Rgt. 7. The French campaign saw him with 2./Inf.Rgt. 417 where he was promoted to Feldwebel on 14.03.1941. As an "old" glider flyer he volunteered for LW and changed from Heer to LW on 16.07.1941. He was trained as pilot and transferred to Stuka-Vorschule Graz and the to Stuka-Schule 2 at Piacenza-Foggia(italy). 01.11.1942 promoted to Leutnant der Reserve. 1943 he was with Erg.Staffel St.G. 2 and II./ST.G. 151. In combat from 01.07.1943-31.08.1944 with 3./St.G.2 (later 3./SG 2) "Immelmann" at the eastern front. 11.07.1943 first combat mission (FF) in the area of Charkow: 500. FF on 22.08.1944 in the area of Jassy(Romania). In March 1944 he destroyed with Hptm. Meyering and another pilot (N.N.) a strategically important bridge over the river Bug in the area north of Perwomaisk in spite of heavy Flak fire with all three a/c hitting the target. 13.06.1944 Deutsches Kreuz in Gold. Because of his outstanding achievements he was appointed Staffelkapitän of 10.(Pz.)/SG 2, which he led until wars end with great success. 704 combat missions 4 times he was shot down 99 confirmed tank kills with "Kanonenmaschinen" - Ju 87G, one of those being a "Stalinpanzer" (IS-2) ~200 tanks heavily damaged or disabled. Hans-Joachim Jäschke - Oberleutnant *18.07.1921 Niesky/ Schlesien RK 26.03.1944 as Oberleutnant after 553 Feindflügen (combat missions) There is not much known about this Stuka - and Schlachtflieger ace. Since the beginning of 1942 he flew with II./StG 1 (later II./SG 1) at the Ostfront and lead the 4th Staffel from 1944 until his death. He recieved the Ehrenpokal on 21.09.1942 and the German Cross in Gold on 02.08.1943 as Leutnant. He was awarded the RK for following achievements (among others): 78 tanks, 27 guns, over 100 trucks and 11 bridges destroyed. On 21.07.1944 while strafing troops with his Fw 190 F-8 on the street of Kleszcsele (Hungary) and westward, he was shot down by Flak and hit in the fuel tank. Crashing from 1000m height and burning on the ground (senkrecht, brennend abgestürzt) Exact combat mission count unknown, at least 600 mostly with Ju 87. Andreas Kuffner - Hauptmann *30.05.1918 in Deisenhofen/Oberbayern RK 16.04.1943 as Oberleutnant after 600 combat missions EL (No. 684) 20.12.1944 as hauptmann after 745 combat missions and approx. 60 tank kills 1937 he joined the Luftwaffe. He took part in the French campaign as Wachtmeister with a light Flak battery and recieved the EK II on 22.06.1940. Back in 1939 he had volunteered for pilot training but he was not accepted before August 1940 when he was sent to a Flugzeugführerschule. After his training in December 1941 he joined I./StG 2 in january 1942 at the northern sector of the Ostfront. Just 3 months later he had accumulated 200 combat missions. Since spring 1942 deployed to the southern sector. On 25.05.1942 he recieved the Ehrenpokal and in September 1942 the DKiG. In autumn 1942 he was wounded in air-combat and had to force land at the own Panzerspitzen. Until December he was in the homeland, afterwards Staffelführer of 4./StG.2 back in the east (Ukraine, Donez, Krim, Kuban Bridge Head). After 600 FF transferred to III./SG 151, which flew in the croatian area Bandeneinsätze (COIN). In February 44 as Staffelkapitän assigned with the deployment of 10.(Pz.)/SG 3 which he led with great success on almost all front areas 04.08.1944 named in OKW report (namentliche Nennung im OKW Bericht). 01.09.1944 promoted to Hauptmann. 25.09.1944 his Staffel destroyed their 300th tank since deployment. 22.10.1944 he destroyed his 50th tank with Ju 87 G. Since January 1945 Gruppenkommandeur I.(Pz.)/SG 9 30.04.1945 he was shot down and killed over Sülte near Schwerin by a Spitfire. On the same occasion both Staffelkapitäne(RK reciepients) were shot down: Rainer Nossek (killed) and Wilhelm Bromen (badly wounded). He had a total of more than 900 combat missions as Stuka-and Panzerschlachtflieger. More than 60 tank kills. Josef Blümel - Feldwebel * 15.08.1920 Prode/Kreis Trautenau (Sudeten) RK 28.01.1945 as Feldwebel posthumously He joined Lw in autumn 1940 and was trained as pilot. Though, he only made his first combat missions in April 1944 on the Krim (Crimean Peninsula) when he came from 5./SG 151 as Unteroffizier to the newly mustered 10.(Pz.)/SG 3 (which flew anti tank missions for the first time in april 44). Within a short time he became one of the best tank hunters and most successful Schwarmführer of the Panzerjagdstaffel of SG 3. He destroyed his 34th tank on 28.07.1944 and was promoted to Feldwebel with effect from 01.07.1944. On his 123rd combat mission he would destroy 2 tanks for his 52nd and 53rd tank kills. His 59th followed on the 17.09.1944. On the 19.09.1944 Blümel had a combat mission between 9.20-10.00hrs which brought his 60th tank kill. On the 2nd mission at 11.10 his Ju 87 G-2 (WNr. 494231) was heavily damaged by Soviet FlaMG and he had to crash-land his plane behind enemy lines. After the emergency landing near Kekava (18km south of Riga) Blümel and his Bordfunker Obergefreiter Hermann Schwärzel were executed (Obermeier wrote murdered) but shot in the neck from Russians (Soviet soldiers? not all were Russians). 3 days later they were found by a search squad consisting of Heer troops and members of the Panzerjagdstaffel under the leadership of Hptm. Kuffner in the meanwhile had retaken the crash location. They were buried with military honors. Ehrenpokal and DKiG were awarded posthumously on 28.and 29.09.1944. total of approx. 150 combat missions as Panzerjäger with Ju 87: 60 tanks destroyed-> from Axis History Forum... Cheers, Hetzer. [ March 04, 2007, 04:15 AM: Message edited by: Hetzer38 ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted March 3, 2007 Share Posted March 3, 2007 I think that total is fairly irrelevant, even though the individual data is quite interesting. Nice digging. All the best Andreas 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted March 3, 2007 Share Posted March 3, 2007 I think that total is fairly irrelevant, even though the individual data is quite interesting. Nice digging. All the best Andreas 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hetzer38 Posted March 3, 2007 Share Posted March 3, 2007 Andreas, Danke für die Blumen! I was referring to undead reindeer cavalry's post in the CMAK forum. (...and when I read the your answer I knew I posted it in the wrong place, but since this is a cross-post, anyway...) Originally posted by undead reindeer cavalry: how many tank kills did Luftwaffe claim? if you count the claims from Hetzer38's top scorers list in the other thread you get 1670 claims. add Rudel's unreal number and you get around 2200 claims. even if you double the number to include lesser scorers etc it's still only 4400 tanks. the problem with that number is that it fits too well the number of actual Soviet tank losses. if German tank killer performance was equal to that of Western Allies they should overclaim by at least 10x and thus rather claim 44 000 tank kills. EDIT: now, i'm not interested in airforces and i don't know how many tanks Luftwaffe claimed. i guess someone knows and will soon post the figure. i will form my opinion beforehands: claims up to 5000 are strikingly accurate. claims up to 15 000 are reasonable (e.g. temporary kills, dummy targets, multiple hits on same target). anything above 20 000 is distortion. it will be interesting to see where the actual claim falls. ...maybe if get a quite accurate number for all the Luftwaffe's tank-kill-claims and compare it with the total of tanks the Soviets lost by (german) air-attack, maybe that would lead to something constructive? (just like undead reindeer cavalry suggested) Well, most likely not, but researching things like this is a lot of fun for me! Cheers, Hetzer. [ March 05, 2007, 02:10 PM: Message edited by: Hetzer38 ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hetzer38 Posted March 3, 2007 Share Posted March 3, 2007 Andreas, Danke für die Blumen! I was referring to undead reindeer cavalry's post in the CMAK forum. (...and when I read the your answer I knew I posted it in the wrong place, but since this is a cross-post, anyway...) Originally posted by undead reindeer cavalry: how many tank kills did Luftwaffe claim? if you count the claims from Hetzer38's top scorers list in the other thread you get 1670 claims. add Rudel's unreal number and you get around 2200 claims. even if you double the number to include lesser scorers etc it's still only 4400 tanks. the problem with that number is that it fits too well the number of actual Soviet tank losses. if German tank killer performance was equal to that of Western Allies they should overclaim by at least 10x and thus rather claim 44 000 tank kills. EDIT: now, i'm not interested in airforces and i don't know how many tanks Luftwaffe claimed. i guess someone knows and will soon post the figure. i will form my opinion beforehands: claims up to 5000 are strikingly accurate. claims up to 15 000 are reasonable (e.g. temporary kills, dummy targets, multiple hits on same target). anything above 20 000 is distortion. it will be interesting to see where the actual claim falls. ...maybe if get a quite accurate number for all the Luftwaffe's tank-kill-claims and compare it with the total of tanks the Soviets lost by (german) air-attack, maybe that would lead to something constructive? (just like undead reindeer cavalry suggested) Well, most likely not, but researching things like this is a lot of fun for me! Cheers, Hetzer. [ March 05, 2007, 02:10 PM: Message edited by: Hetzer38 ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael kenny Posted March 3, 2007 Share Posted March 3, 2007 http://www.1jma.dk/articles/1jmaarticlesWW2artyleningrad.htm "Many Soviet naval vessels were heavily damaged by the German artillery fire in 1941-1942. The battleship "Marat", which was ostensibly "sunk" by Hans-Ulrich Rudel on September 23, 1941, but soon repaired so that turrets N3 and N4 became active again, was hit by 5 shells on 15.09.1941, piercing the decks and blowing up the engine, on 12.12.1941 it suffered 3 more hits of the 203 mm shells and on 28.12.1941 3 direct hits and several German shells exploding near the battleship. The deck was reinforced by the granite plates of the Neva embankment, and yet the ship was targeted again successfully on 25.10.1942 with 3 305 mm shells, one 203 mm shell on 06.11.1942 and one 203 mm shell on 08.10.1943. The repeatedly battered vessel was decommissioned in 1953." 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael kenny Posted March 3, 2007 Share Posted March 3, 2007 http://www.1jma.dk/articles/1jmaarticlesWW2artyleningrad.htm "Many Soviet naval vessels were heavily damaged by the German artillery fire in 1941-1942. The battleship "Marat", which was ostensibly "sunk" by Hans-Ulrich Rudel on September 23, 1941, but soon repaired so that turrets N3 and N4 became active again, was hit by 5 shells on 15.09.1941, piercing the decks and blowing up the engine, on 12.12.1941 it suffered 3 more hits of the 203 mm shells and on 28.12.1941 3 direct hits and several German shells exploding near the battleship. The deck was reinforced by the granite plates of the Neva embankment, and yet the ship was targeted again successfully on 25.10.1942 with 3 305 mm shells, one 203 mm shell on 06.11.1942 and one 203 mm shell on 08.10.1943. The repeatedly battered vessel was decommissioned in 1953." 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mike Posted March 3, 2007 Share Posted March 3, 2007 Originally posted by Tero: Google Earth gave the distance from Eastern part of Kronstadt to the Finnish lines as ~25 km (at the old border in Terijoki). With 30km range the guns would have reached max 10 km inland. I have not seen any data in Finnish sources about Marat being a particular pest to the troops guarding the old border at the coast. I imagine Marats guns were only used on fairly important targets - not to disparage the Finns, but they'd pretty much went to a holding action when they got to the pre-Winter-War border didn't they - so no attacks or counterattacks that might warrant those big shells? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mike Posted March 3, 2007 Share Posted March 3, 2007 Originally posted by Tero: Google Earth gave the distance from Eastern part of Kronstadt to the Finnish lines as ~25 km (at the old border in Terijoki). With 30km range the guns would have reached max 10 km inland. I have not seen any data in Finnish sources about Marat being a particular pest to the troops guarding the old border at the coast. I imagine Marats guns were only used on fairly important targets - not to disparage the Finns, but they'd pretty much went to a holding action when they got to the pre-Winter-War border didn't they - so no attacks or counterattacks that might warrant those big shells? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Posted March 4, 2007 Share Posted March 4, 2007 Except the start of Soviet offensive, 9th of June 1944. Then every piece of Russian artillery, whether Kronshtadt or fortification batteries, was utilized. Btw. Tero, the front line wasn't in Terijoki but between Kuokkala (Repino) and Siestarjoki (Sestroretsk), so some 8 km closer to Kronshtadt. P.S. While googling around about sea batteries, I found this site about Sveaborg. Interesting read! [ March 03, 2007, 06:03 PM: Message edited by: Sergei ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Posted March 4, 2007 Share Posted March 4, 2007 Except the start of Soviet offensive, 9th of June 1944. Then every piece of Russian artillery, whether Kronshtadt or fortification batteries, was utilized. Btw. Tero, the front line wasn't in Terijoki but between Kuokkala (Repino) and Siestarjoki (Sestroretsk), so some 8 km closer to Kronshtadt. P.S. While googling around about sea batteries, I found this site about Sveaborg. Interesting read! [ March 03, 2007, 06:03 PM: Message edited by: Sergei ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
civdiv Posted March 4, 2007 Share Posted March 4, 2007 Originally posted by John Kettler: http://users.skynet.be/Emmanuel.Gustin/fgun/fgun-bi.html Regards, John Kettler John, That is not a 47mm in the second link you posted, it looks like a 75mm. Not your mistake, theirs. But very intersting article, thanks for posting it. civdiv 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
civdiv Posted March 4, 2007 Share Posted March 4, 2007 Originally posted by John Kettler: http://users.skynet.be/Emmanuel.Gustin/fgun/fgun-bi.html Regards, John Kettler John, That is not a 47mm in the second link you posted, it looks like a 75mm. Not your mistake, theirs. But very intersting article, thanks for posting it. civdiv 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted March 4, 2007 Author Share Posted March 4, 2007 civdiv, Do you mean the French Tellier flying boat gun? If not, please clarify. Am glad you found the article interesting. Would love to own all of Gustin's books, but for now, am grateful he's got such a meaty site. Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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