Knavery Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 Jose, I think you should still continue to make your presence known in the Combat Mission community. I have a website (http://cmtactics.no-ip.com) which I have been working on for a while now. It is currently down for maintenance, but I think this game deserves as much fanfair as possible. The reason I'm emailing you, is because I have a profound amount of respect for you. Although I bought Europa Universalis II more than a year ago, I still plan on learning the system and have your guide for beginners sitting next to me. You have been a big part of that community and I think the guys at the Battlefront forums would respect you a lot more if they had known you a bit more. I apologize if your NOT new to the Combat Mission forums, but that is what appeared to happen. I don't know how long you have been a member of those forums, but it seems as though you came and left after a sour taste in your mouth. Although I don't agree with most viewpoints of the scenario designers not wanting their scenarios on your site, I think you should at least provide links to them. No one can argue that including the designers themselves. But in all honesty... If the designers don't want the clout and the recognition by a larger audience, then don't give it to them. It's that simple. There are plenty of other designers out there that would love to have their work spread around. I think there may have been some confusion as to who the good guys really are. The ones that do change, edit, take false credit, and try to sell other peoples work for profit are NOT exposing themselves in the community. So... To the scenario designers.... it's out of sight / out of mind. I don't think they were accusing you of any wrongdoing per se, but I do think that you SHOULD be allowed to carry these scenarios on your website given that the proper credit is due. Since I am not well versed in copyright laws, I actually asked whether I could use a lot of what is contained on my site. There have been a couple of people helping, but Combat Mission Tactics mainly consists of links. It's a database of links to tactics in one spot without having to search the world over for them. That makes it easy for me. Someone will occasionally email something that they give permission to be posted. Kudos to them! Although the Combat Mission community is large, we could use another person as dedicated as you due to the success and respect you have gained on the Europa Universalis forums. [ January 17, 2003, 02:30 PM: Message edited by: Knavery ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manchildstein (ii) Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 my main problem with what el-cid was doing was that he was only taking the highly reviewed scenarios... in reality, some perhaps 'so-so' scenarios get high reviews... some 'good' scenarios get 'bad' reviews... and many scenarios - 'good' or 'bad' - get no reviews... i think that the idea of linking to each scenario individually was a good one... it might have taken some extra work but it was doable... it's possible that if he had linked to each individual scenario, that he may not have ruffled any feathers... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WWB Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 Well, a certain individual had a coronary about not getting his download counter. The only beef I, and most of the other "name" designers, had was that we had not given premission for redistribution of our works. There apparently were some attempts at gaining permission, but they were not clear nor strong enough. In fact, in a number of private discussions amongst ourselves, we agreed that we applauded his work, there was just a minor issue with execution. I hope the guy has not run off permenantly due to a few individuals taking download counters and feedback too seriously. I just like to maintain control over my intellectual property. The reviews will come with time. WWB 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 Originally posted by wwb_99: Well, a certain individual had a coronary about not getting his download counter. WWBDefine "coronary". For that matter, define "'name' designers". How nice that your concern about "intellectual property" is obviously more important than anyone else's concerns re: feedback. Listen for the pop, wwb, then tell me whether or not the scenario designers should maybe help each other out, and hash out these issues as a community, rather than backbite and name call amongst each other. Why don't we just suffice to say there were a lot of legitimate concerns, and that yours weren't the only ones? [ January 17, 2003, 04:17 PM: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hortlund Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 Well, actually I think we all remember who said what in that discussion. It was not so long ago, I thing everyone remembers who said what. But if you want to bring it up again Michael, we sure can have that discussion again since it definitively wasnt finished last time. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 Or maybe not. That discussion managed to hack off quite a few good scenario designers, but quite apart from that it was also quite finished. Steve made the final statement on it as far as I am concerned. Originally posted by Steve: If someone make something it is theirs to do with as they see fit EXCEPT to sell it. So if Michael is concerned about DL counters, that is his right. If WWB or me want to be asked, that is our right. If someone does not give a rat's ass about what happens with their scenario, that is their right too. [ January 17, 2003, 04:37 PM: Message edited by: Andreas ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hortlund Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 Originally posted by Andreas: Or maybe not. That discussion managed to hack off quite a few good scenario designers, but quite apart from that it was also quite finished. Apparently it wasnt finished, because if it was, then this thread would not have taken this turn. Maybe you feel the discussion was over for your part, fine I can respect that. I think you should acknowledge the fact that maybe some people disagree with you on that part though. [ January 17, 2003, 04:47 PM: Message edited by: Leutnant Hortlund ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted January 18, 2003 Share Posted January 18, 2003 Originally posted by Leutnant Hortlund: Apparently it wasnt finished, because if it was, then this thread would not have taken this turn. What do you associate with the following words? </font>dead </font>horse </font>beat </font>But by all means continue - you have every right to do so, and apologies if it looked as if I wanted to cramp your style, or somefink. Maybe you are right and there is some life left in the old mare. Should have gone to the sausage factory a long time ago though, IMO. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott B Posted January 18, 2003 Share Posted January 18, 2003 mmmm... sausage... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted January 18, 2003 Share Posted January 18, 2003 Originally posted by Scott B: mmmm... sausage...Talk to Kip about the Ardennes trip, he'll have a story to share 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hortlund Posted January 18, 2003 Share Posted January 18, 2003 Originally posted by Andreas: What do you associate with the following words? </font>dead </font>horse </font>beat </font>*edit Never mind, its not worth it. **edit again Just out of curiosity though, what would the dead horse be in your opinion? And please dont bring up any intellectual property arguments, because those rules dont really work on the internet the way everyone here seems to think. [ January 17, 2003, 05:24 PM: Message edited by: Leutnant Hortlund ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knavery Posted January 18, 2003 Author Share Posted January 18, 2003 I don't want a flame war going on. I just think that Jose was treated unfairly for trying to put together a nice collection of scenarios. I mean... Regardless of what route he could have taken in gathering these, there would have been someone unhappy with the outcome. I agree that permission should be granted, but I DON'T believe it would hurt all that much if permission was not granted and he went ahead with it anyway. I almost wish he would have. If proper credit is given, than there's no real harm done. If you're worried about some of the smaller or unpopular scenarios not getting any clout, tell him about it. I'd be happy to host them on my site as well. If many of you knew how much time and effort he has put into Europa Universalis II and how respected he is on those forums, then you might look at him differently. [ January 17, 2003, 05:25 PM: Message edited by: Knavery ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted January 18, 2003 Share Posted January 18, 2003 Nothing to see [ January 17, 2003, 05:30 PM: Message edited by: Andreas ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted January 18, 2003 Share Posted January 18, 2003 Originally posted by Leutnant Hortlund: *edit Never mind, its not worth it. I fully agree Originally posted by Leutnant Hortlund: **edit again Just out of curiosity though, what would the dead horse be in your opinion? And please dont bring up any intellectual property arguments, because those rules dont really work on the internet the way everyone here seems to think.Oh but I will bring just that up, because it appears you are saying that because these rights don't work (which I think is open to debate) we should just forget about them, and not try to make them work? Or do I misunderstand you? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted January 18, 2003 Share Posted January 18, 2003 Originally posted by Knavery: If many of you knew how much time and effort he has put into Europa Universalis II and how respected he is on those forums, then you might look at him differently.Just for the record, and thinking back of that thread. I certainly have a lot of respect for the effort he made. I think most, if not all, of the other designers who responded also expressed that. I actually think he came out of the whole thing very well. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hortlund Posted January 18, 2003 Share Posted January 18, 2003 Originally posted by Andreas: Oh but I will bring just that up, because it appears you are saying that because these rights don't work (which I think is open to debate) we should just forget about them, and not try to make them work? Or do I misunderstand you?Well, the entire problem with the internet and intellectual property law is what law should be applicable. Lets imagine for arguments sake that a German citizen, living in Germany makes a scenario to be used in a game made in america by an american company. The German guy uploads his scenario to a server located in Spain. A person living in Sweden downloads the scenario from the server in Spain and uploads the scenario on his own server located in .nu (wherever that is, I think it is some island in Oceania) This new location of the scenario displeases the German guy, and he wants it removed from the .nu server. What nations intellectual property law is applicable in each situation and why? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Das Reich Posted January 18, 2003 Share Posted January 18, 2003 Originally posted by Leutnant Hortlund: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Andreas: Oh but I will bring just that up, because it appears you are saying that because these rights don't work (which I think is open to debate) we should just forget about them, and not try to make them work? Or do I misunderstand you?Well, the entire problem with the internet and intellectual property law is what law should be applicable. Lets imagine for arguments sake that a German citizen, living in Germany makes a scenario to be used in a game made in america by an american company. The German guy uploads his scenario to a server located in Spain. A person living in Sweden downloads the scenario from the server in Spain and uploads the scenario on his own server located in .nu (wherever that is, I think it is some island in Oceania) This new location of the scenario displeases the German guy, and he wants it removed from the .nu server. What nations intellectual property law is applicable in each situation and why?</font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted January 18, 2003 Share Posted January 18, 2003 There are international agreements on this. It is pretty unenforcable though. Which brings up the question, as you quite rightly seem to indicate, whether unenforcable laws have a place on the statute book. So I will now sidestep the issue somewhat. If you see these property rights not just from the lawyerly perspective (where can I sue the guy?), but from the social perspective (could it be that these rights have developed for a reason in our societies?), I think that helps. You then either accept them or not. If you don't accept them, you may create some effects by that. At the best, in this case, someone you don't particularly care about is miffed. At worst, scenarios will dry up, with the actual outcome most likely somewhere inbetween. I think this community is usually quite good about acknowledging these rights, although they would not be called that, they are 'customs', or 'the way we do things here'. As such, they constantly evolve, but the actual laws are one frame of reference in which they evolve. So in conclusion (deep breath of relief everyone), I would say that there is a bit more to it than rights, and hence it maybe a good idea to act according to custom. I wonder if this is particularly clear... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow 1st Hussars Posted January 18, 2003 Share Posted January 18, 2003 I think I missed something....... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Schieben Posted January 18, 2003 Share Posted January 18, 2003 Hmmm, I've been seeing a bit too much of this male sensitivity nonsense on this forum lately. Gentlemen, this is the Ostfront! Now get out there and kick some a#$e. If you want a pillow fight go over to the Barbie site (no, not Klaus!) Regards 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted January 18, 2003 Share Posted January 18, 2003 Why is Hortlund even participating in these discussions? I'd appreciate a link to his creations. I even promise to review them at the Depot. Not sure what the big deal is, or why my name is being dragged through the mud. El Cid broke a gentleman's convention that we established as a community long ago, when Tiger and Maximus were duking it out. I politely informed El Cid that he had done this. He corrected the matter. I don't know what he has done or not done for Europa Uni-whatever, but I don't see that creating a single zip file makes him the be-all end-all of the Combat Mission world. My earlier example still holds - if someone comes to my apartment and repaints my car, I can admire the workmanship, but still tell him to change it back because I never asked him to do it in the first place. And no one was stopping him from making another file, as long as it was done in keeping with the terms of our gentleman's agreement. Hell, maybe he's doing so now. All he would have to do is remove five or six files of mine. Given the negative comments written about me, I can't imagine any wanting to touch them in any event. Though I notice with gratitude a couple of good reviews have gone up in the last couple of days, include one in the 9 range. I notice wwb's reviews tend to be in the 7 range, with the highest an 8.08. Is this why his opinion of the Depot as a feedback collecting tool is so low? It shouldn't be, reviews are just a guide, but they're better than nothing. Kind of hypocritical of him to jump all over me, given his sig line "Help the innocent, defeat the evil and review scenarios!" that links to the Depot, or his recent post in the Scenario Forum promising to put up his latest two works in a hurry. There is obviously some value for him in using the depot as a repository for his wares. {shrugs} [ January 17, 2003, 11:41 PM: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer76 Posted January 18, 2003 Share Posted January 18, 2003 Originally posted by Andreas: There are international agreements on this. Would you care to point us to which law you mean? As it is with almost every law, some countries doesnt sign it, which in a internet sense of case, renders the law dead. Because then the "illigal" data could be hosted by a server in a country which didnt sign the agreement. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spook Posted January 18, 2003 Share Posted January 18, 2003 Originally posted by Michael Dorosh: Hell, maybe he's doing so now. All he would have to do is remove five or six files of mine. Given the negative comments written about me, I can't imagine any wanting to touch them in any event. Though I notice with gratitude a couple of good reviews have gone up in the last couple of days, include one in the 9 range. I notice wwb's reviews tend to be in the 7 range, with the highest an 8.08. Is this why his opinion of the Depot as a feedback collecting tool is so low? It shouldn't be, reviews are just a guide, but they're better than nothing.I don't think you need concern yourself, Michael. The vast majority of those performing scenario downloads probably never noticed the subject thread. And even if they did, you didn't act in a way (IMO) as to affect people's decisions. As to wwb and the review scoring system, I wouldn't read too much into it. My own review scores haven't been overly generous in the three scenarios I've had a chance to review, but I think that will change with "Regiment Dies Ten Times" when I have a chance to finish it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Schieben Posted January 18, 2003 Share Posted January 18, 2003 Any scenario worthy of a review will get one from me. I've also been going through the included scenarios (which I don't, and perhaps should, comment on)and generated pbem ones. Early in the Steel Panthers says, when I thought (for a couple of months) that I finally was going to get my long lost SL jollies, I converted a few (A)SL scenarios and posted them. A few months later, thanks to a few watchful wargamers, I discovered that a few loathsome individuals had hijacked them and put their names on them. Yes, there are bas$%^ds out there who will actually do that! Too bad, because I really appreciated the feedback I received from these efforts. People do actually take the time to let you know when you've done a good scenario. I believe that the authors' wishes should be respected. They put some time and effort into this, mainly for their and others' enjoyment, and if they want to monitor downloads and comments that's the least we can do for them. I think it unfortunate that the fellow in question walked into the crossfire, because I'm sure he meant well, but perhaps should have tested the water around here before jumping in. Regards 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PzKfw V Ausf G Posted January 18, 2003 Share Posted January 18, 2003 A possible solution to this would be if the depot would allow users to create packs "on-site" much like the amazon (book) lists. Also it would be nice if the searchresults were sorted on "no. of reviews x review average" instead of the (non-existant) sorting is has right now. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.