newbie question about air support

[karlis]

Is there a conventional wisdom about air support? It's expensive and you don't control it; is it essentially a roll of the dice?

Any types that stand out?

I have CMBB and CMAK, but will probably be playing mostly CMAK, as the Axis (especially the Italians). Any insight on air support is appreciated.

[Redwolf]

The problem is friendly fire and the way that the probability of friendly fire is calculated.

To be specific, the core of the problem is that friendly fire becomes more probable when no enemy is visible. Realistic or not, you have to take that into account.

Concrete:

1) Do NOT ever by air support if you attack with vehicles on a force which may not have vehicles. It will shoot you up, with about 90% probability.

2) Do buy air support if you defend without vehicles and the attacker has vehicles or crosses large patches of open ground with infantry or best, both.

[Slappy]

Agreed. Air support works better the more open the terrain (air finds it easier to spot targets) and the more armor the enemy has relative to you (those planes are going to drop their bombs on something and if they can't find an enemy tank, you're will do fine).

I find it a pretty big gamble. I generally get far more bang out of a 200pt artillery spotter. The only really useful situations seem to be out in the desert (really open, lots of armor, lack of cover makes spotters easy targets).

[karlis]

That's what I was hoping to find out - whether it's better to go for an artillery spotter. Your comments about friendly fire make sense. I bought fighter-bomber air support in an open desert battle where the enemy has armor and I don't, so hopefully it'll work out. If not, it's my first PBEM game and I'll have learned a lesson.

I'm the attacker (probe), so it's possible my advancing infantry will be strafed. The British defenders have one tank left that I can see and a few of their infantry units have opened up (prematurely, in my opinion).

I don't have any tanks (the Italian tanks seem so brittle, and it's a small flat village map) but I do have an on-map AT gun w/ HE and AP shells, two anti-tank rifles, and 2 on-map mortars. I figured that plus the air support would take care of any enemy vehicles/guns/MGs. We'll see. 2 minutes have elapsed and the enemy has only one tank (my AT gun took two light tanks out in the first minute =) and one gun left that I can see. Air support hasn't arrived yet. I'm hoping the air support will take out the tank and the gun plus some of the buildings the defenders are probably hiding in (there's not many of them, but they are clustered together).

[Redwolf]

If you want to make up your mind abouyt which planes to buy.

In CMBB, as the Russians I found it useful to have specialized planes against certain kinds of German armor.

If you figure he will come in with heavy tanks that you will have difficulties to kill, then a plane with heavy bombload makes sense. But it is still questionable whether that pays off since those planes are expensive and they cause tremendous damage when dropped between your heavy weapons.

But a thing that almost pays off is plane without bombs but a lot of strafes with cannons if the Germans have a lot of light armor.

Many German players like thin crap (or are forced to buy it by the points allocation) like the 251/9, armored cars, Wespes or other thin HE throwers. Some buy armored Panzergrenadiers. The mortar halftracks are popular since HQs can spot for them. People like things with the high-precision autocannons and everything that carries it is thin.

Sometimes the Germans also have expensive towed guns which are suprisingly quickly abanonded when strafed (considering how much normal fire they often take).

On the other hand, Russian players almost always run around in real tanks so you need bombs or at least a tankbuster which is just too expensive.

[karlis]

Thanks for the tips. I can see already that the tank busters are quite expensive. Air support generally seems pretty pricey, but the posters pointed out some scenarios where it's worth it and some where it isn't.

[Carl Puppchen]

If you play the same opponent a lot you should occasionally buy planes because it forces your opponent to CONSIDER buying anti-aircraft guns like 20mm and keeping them in reserve (not on the front line) to defend against AA attacks. This is a subtle benefit but a helpful one nonetheless.

An occasional strafer is a good annoyance if you are on the attack or on defense - another benefit is that when the enemy AA opens up you can see their gun positions (a bit gamey, I admit)

In CMAK it is pretty easy to kill the Brits if you play Axis (as I always do) but I agree that if you are playing CMBB Axis a tank buster is mighty appreciated if you are facing the incredible KV or T34 series in very early war 1941 (virtually the only things that are mobile that can kill them).

Best of luck!

[karlis]

My air support was much delayed. I'm down to the last 10 turns and I just heard airplane sounds. I'm the attacker and I'm about 150 meters from the main defense line. The defender has a tank about 150 meters behind the main line, and the main line of defense consists of a string of buildings. And there's an enemy AT gun in there.

My hope is that my air support will target the tank, the gun or the buildings. My fear is that it will target my advancing troops. The attack is going well and I'd just as soon do without the air support at this point (though taking out the tank would be helpful) b/c of the friendly fire risk.

Oh, I don't have any vehicles whatsoever.

Is friendly fire less likely b/c I don't have vehicles, or is there a random chance of friendly fire?

[Cthulhu Dreams]

They seem to have a targeting order that goes something like this

Tanks in the open

Other vehciles in the open

Guns in the open

Infantry in the open

<same order except in cover>

Note: As a rule of thumb if his stuff is all in cover, and yours is in the open, you very well could get bombed.

It's porablly pretty likely to will go after the tank though - tanks seem to be the priorty to the AI.

[JasonC]

karlis - It will probably go after the tank. They are strongly attracted to vehicle targets. An IDed gun is a likely fall back target. Infantry in the open come well below those as targeting priorities. It is unlikely to target buildings just as buildings, though.

But an attack on your guys can happen. You will minimize your chances of a friendly fire problem if your infantry is stationary in cover in the next minute or two. You can't cancel the air support, and have no other control over its targeting. If you don't halt your infantry it will most likely still go after the enemy tank.

[karlis]

I have no cover available in the next minute; I'm in the last 150 meters of an infantry advance under fire across open desert; the only chance at cover is patch of rough about 100 meters away.

Fortunately for me, the enemy tank has backed up and is in open desert in clear weather, at least 100 -200 meters away from anything else, so hopefully the air support will go for the tank. The enemy gun is in a small clearing among three buildings.

The air support taking out the tank probably guarantees a major or total victory for me, so I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

What do you think, should I pause the advance in the open until at least after the air support drops its bombs, or should I push ahead (under fire) and hope to reach the rough (100m) or the buildings (150m) before the air support arrives?

There are enemies in the buildings (1-2 rifle squads, maybe a light machine gun or two?), but my firepower advantage should be overwhelming (the tank doesn't have LOS on the advancing infantry, thankfully).

[JasonC]

Stop and fire for a minute or two. See if the airstrike KOs the tank. Continue the advance after that. Don't try to run to cover. But don't move either. (Firing is not a bad idea anyway, if as you say you should have overwhelming FP).

[karlis]

I stopped to fire. I have 3 of the 5 defending shooters pinned, the other two are firing from further away. The initial air strike missed the tank. I think I get only one bomb with the Folgalore (spelling?) fighter-bomber.

Since his shooters pinned late in the movie, I figure I can advance a few of the troops; if I can get to the rough patch on the far left I can set up a nice fire base to cover the rest of the advance. I have a fire base on the right flank (MMG, LMG, 2 squads, sharpshooter, AT rifle) in some rough that can prevent the defender from re-positioning his troops from right to left (my main advance is on the far left side). I'm taking care that no one is tired, and morale is holding up well. A few "alerted" and "shaken", but that's it (those guys are stopping and firing for this next minute or two).

This is my first PBEM game (and my opponent's) and we're both having an absolute blast. Obviously we've both made plenty of mistakes, but we're learning.

[Joachim]

Originally posted by Carl Puppchen:

If you play the same opponent a lot you should occasionally buy planes because it forces your opponent to CONSIDER buying anti-aircraft guns like 20mm and keeping them in reserve (not on the front line) to defend against AA attacks. This is a subtle benefit but a helpful one nonetheless.

SdKfz 222 or 251/9 with 20mm Autocannon are AA capable - and they do kill or discourage planes (except for IL2s). So if the opponent has those (in reserve) he doesn't even need additional AA.

I'd add to Redwolfs first post:

Do not buy air if you have guns in the open and the enemy has guns in trenches or cover.

3 StuKas.

5 bombing runs on enemy territory, IIRC 3 or 4 of them probably on guns, but definitely on trenches. 1 attack on my forces. Ouch. Gun destroyed.

Several strafing runs mostly on/near trenches (with guns?). 2 or 3 on mine (no losses). Mostly on guns. My trucks or HTs are ignored.

I guess my opponent has no vehicles.

Gruß

Joachim

[SpitfireXI]

Is air support guaranteed to show up in CMAK? I noticed sometimes that it never did in CMBB. Also, if both forces use air power and one of the aircraft is a fighter on a strafing mission does it scare away the other bomber?