Hordes of half squads, continued

[walpurgis nacht]

Thank you for the link Glider! The picture looked so much nicer in my Paint program

This example is intended to represent one platoon of veteran rifleman split squads, defending an attacker’s approach lane.

General considerations:

-I restricted the force composition to a single platoon without support weapons. Ideally I would also have a pair of LMGs, and a pair of HMGs with LOS to this kill sack as well. This would give you 6-8 “layers” of concentrated fire.

-The stopping power of the “A” half is much more significant than the “B”, because he has the LMG.

-Notice how spread out everyone is relative to the HQ position. Only the 2 forward splits are even in command range. Veteran infantry reduce the burden of this disadvantage significantly, particularly when your main shooters are back at the safer distances of 150-300 meters. The less experienced player might have 3 full squads + HQ all stuffed into the larger woods patch.

-You don’t want to open fire with all of your main shooters (the ones with the orange target lines) right away. You should expose only what you absolutely NEED to hold back your opponent. It takes time and experience to make the judgment as to what that exactly means, depending on the enemy thrust concentration. Just remember not to fire on something, just because you can.

1A: The A half has the LMG, and this fellow is one of your power shooters. He is 230 meters back from the kill sack, in a trench. Trenches are not spotted until the enemy closes within 200 meters, so he should be able to fire only giving off sound contacts. Also, this is well within range for the LMG to hit hard.

1B: In this case, the split is used as an ammo pouch for the “A” half. Notice he is safely, just behind the backside of the hill crest (no LOS forward). The trench was placed on the back edge of the hill crest for this reason. As soon as A starts to run low on ammo, the B will sneak up a few meters, timed to the last seconds of the turn (to make his window of vulnerability as small as possible), rejoining for the next turn, increasing your LMG for ammo. You can rinse and repeat this process throughout a game to reload multiple times. In this case, however, you will be spotted when you crest the hill, and you are too exposed to try and sneak away to safety repeatedly, so I would stay put after reconnecting once.

2A This should be the last of your main shooters to open fire. He is vulnerable to treebursts in his foxhole, and can easily be dealt with once spotted. Since he is in good concealment terrain, he should always operate shoot n scoot style. Time him to fire for the majority of the turn, with a “sneak” move to a new position attached for the last seconds of the turn.. This way, if all goes well, you will be hidden from the enemy, and moving to a new position at the beginning of the next turn. This is like hitting the reset button on his exposure, and often saves him from reactionary enemy HE.

3A: Main shooter.

3B: Since 3A is entrenched on flat open ground, sneaking the B half toward him to reload would only expose the trench and unit position, so he was the logical choice for a forward “reserve” unit. 3B doesn’t think of doing anything unless 2B becomes pinned or worse. This is your last man on the line, if he falls, you lose the terrain.

4A: 4A is close enough for concentrated enemy small arms to potentially give him a really hard time. Therefore, I would save him until I really needed him to halt the enemy advance. Notice his position in the woods patch. He cannot hit, or be hit by anything directly forward of him. The closer the enemy gets to the kill sack, the brighter blue his LOS beam becomes.

4B: Here is a way to make your ammo storage splits useful in terrain the offers good concealment. He is acting as a set of eyes, waiting to resupply 4A at any time. Likewise with 2A and 2B, at the beginning of the game I would have them at the front of the woods patch they are in now, not hiding, with small cover arcs to keep them from firing. This way they will help you spot enemy movements until the enemy gets close, at which point you sneak back to the foxholes they are in now.

HQ: He has the binoculars so it’s a good idea to keep him up front and spotting until things start to get hot. Binoculars really help you get specific contacts, without the “?”. Once the enemy is close I would sneak him back from where he now stands. Also note his cover arc. I want him up, and facing that direction to spot things, but under NO circumstances do I want him to open fire. One other trick with HQs . . . . if you don’t get a solid ID on an enemy unit, try rotating your HQ to face the unit precisely . . . this makes a big difference (it’s a little tricky to setup his cover arc to keep him faced precisely where you want him to. I use the “rotate” command to define a clear, precise line, and then setup a tiny 180 degree cover arc, gauging the 90 degree point with the rotate movement order line.)

In order, I would probably choose to open fire one at a time, this way:

-HMG(s)

-1A (has more ammo from split than 3A)

-3A

-LMG(s) (less ammo than A half splits)

-4A

-2A

-2B

-3B

-Spiderman

Why does any of this matter? Well picture the scene above with 4 rifle squads, all within command range around the forward wooded patches. 1st one fires, enemy tank goes to work, 2nd one fires, enemy mortar is on it, 3rd one fire and here comes the enemy arty!, your last squad opens fire, half pinned already from the lead being poured all around him . . . .finds himself outgunned by 3 enemy platoons, able to concentrate on just him = You lose.

I hope this was helpful.

[ February 01, 2005, 06:06 PM: Message edited by: Walpurgis Nacht ]

[Ace Pilot]

I feel like I just found the Holy Grail of CM!

[Philippe]

The Sangreal is not surrounded by gridded grass.

[GreenAsJade]

So we now know that splitting is an advantage. Even the winner of ROW IV tells us so.

No more debate on that one.

So what's the problem? The only problem I've heard is Treeburst saying he doesn't want to spent twice the time ordering twice the number of units.

The answer is easy: play games with half the points.

Everything is back the way it was before, except your infantry units have A and B in their name and 4 and 5 men instead of 9 and 10.

GaJ.

PS: if you don't like spending time doing orders, why do you play? I thought that "spending time doing orders" is what you do when you play CM!! It's certainly what I do when I play CM ... if you didn't like doing orders, surely you'd be better off playing FPS or somefink?

[GreenAsJade]

Originally posted by Philippe:

The Sangreal is not surrounded by gridded grass.

Yeah, who's grass mod is that, anyway?

(And isn't using grids gamey?)

[Treeburst155]

Have you Halfsquad Herders read the last three posts to the original Hordes thread? Halfsquad Herding has been disgraced finally and completely. It's downright gamey....smart, but gamey. I'll stay with my full squads. It was a fun debate. I TRULY enjoyed it.

Treeburst155 out.

[ February 01, 2005, 07:13 PM: Message edited by: Treeburst155 ]

[walpurgis nacht]

Originally posted by Treeburst155:

Halfsquad Herding has been disgraced finally and completely. It's downright gamey....smart, but gamey. I'll stay with my full squads. It was a fun debate. I TRULY enjoyed it.

Treeburst155 out.

"Gamey" is a matter of perception. Playing a game is gamey, Treeburst . . . you gamey bastage

[Treeburst155]

Now now Walpurgis, don't get upset. We just have different opinions on how the game should be approached and enjoyed. We sit down to the game with different mindsets. Enjoy your halfsquad version of CM, and I'll enjoy my whole squad version. Live and Let Live. Peace...Shalom...etc..

Treeburst155 out.

[GreenAsJade]

Yeah right "out" he said, but came back again eh?

"Out" of the sig with the hype would be nice...

[Wiggins]

[pasted form the previous topic]

How nice discussion. I give a few words about the game it all started:

My forces were:

bat Romanian cavalry (8plts with 60mm mortar and HMG each)+ 2 AT Romanian guns supported by SMG Russian regimental coy CRACK, plt T34/85 and M3 for HQ company of Russians (he shouldn't walk to battlefield, isn't?).So I got 11 plt for 2000pts game and that was the main point. Glider were outnumbered without splitting!!! The mystery is revealed.

The break-through I made on the far left flank was quite easy, because I outnumbered alone enemy 1 VET plt with 1 SMG crk plt and 2 plt of cavalry. Next 2 plt of cavalry and SMG plt were flanking the centre from the left flank, when break-through was made. There were not any splitted squad there!! (BTW: spliting during break-through is stupid in my opinion.) In the centre I have two splitted plt of cavalry decepting my enemy. It worked because the main Glider forces stayed at the centre defending main flag in the village. On the right, my last group consisted of smg plt and two cav plts standed against attacking enemy about 3plt (one crk). After off map firing (250 shells) I attacked and break them. There were also no splitted squads, maybe one or two during chasing the enemy, but only in microscale.

So two enemies flanks were broken and the game in fact were over. There were not hordes of halfsquads, splitting was used locally and for exact purpose.

I believe I can easily beat most of you who will split globally all squads because it just simple doesn't work. Even 10,000 Trees' tests do not convinced me, 250 P2P games do. Only local splitting for exact purpose make sense.

It is funny that discussion was started because of my and Glider game, which where without hordes of HS as talks (lies??) the topic name.

I think that some persons catch the chance to reveal themselves as a specialists in CM theory and write in signature some truisms like "split them all in the woods". New gamers with high number (20,000 or more) will surely enshrine you for that.

Wiggins out

[Glider]

Originally posted by Walpurgis Nacht:

...

This example is intended to represent one platoon of veteran rifleman split squads, defending an attacker’s approach lane...

I never thought that halfsquad defence could be made into such a fine art, that was one of the most useful posts I saw, ever.

Just one question, you seem to find the assault elements (short-range halfsquads) almost useless except as ammo pouches. Why are you not using them as, say, a last line of defence, deployed at the defended objective with 50m covered arcs? Used like that even their short-range firepower could be useful.

[walpurgis nacht]

Originally posted by Glider:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Walpurgis Nacht:

...

This example is intended to represent one platoon of veteran rifleman split squads, defending an attacker’s approach lane...

I never thought that halfsquad defence could be made into such a fine art, that was one of the most useful posts I saw, ever.

Just one question, you seem to find the assault elements (short-range halfsquads) almost useless except as ammo pouches. Why are you not using them as, say, a last line of defence, deployed at the defended objective with 50m covered arcs? Used like that even their short-range firepower could be useful. </font>

[walpurgis nacht]

Originally posted by Glider:

Just one question, you seem to find the assault elements (short-range halfsquads) almost useless except as ammo pouches. Why are you not using them as, say, a last line of defence, deployed at the defended objective with 50m covered arcs? Used like that even their short-range firepower could be useful.

What I tried to do above is put together a somewhat ideal confetti of situations to illustrate different ways to use split squads. But the uses hardly stop there. Peeling off a few splits squads from various platoons to create strategic reserves is SOP in my book.

Your question about the use of short-range firepower depends on the type of platoon you have, and a variety of other circumstances.

Above I used vanilla German riflemen. 1 full German rifle squad is easily outmatched at close range by, for example, Russian smg infantry . So splitting him doesn't make your situation all that much worse than it was to begin with. This frees up an LMG split shooter that can dig in 200+ meters away, out of smg range!, and hit with meaningful firepower. By the time anyone actually makes it through to 2B's cover arc, they should be pretty well banged up, allowing for a nice easy kill.

Any change in your firepower composition has to be considered. If I had Jaegers for example, instead, there is no way I would setup at all like I did above. Coupled with terrain, weather, time contraint, and many other variants, it becomes impossible to throw out a "one size fits all" package on CM tactics.

[Treeburst155]

...and this stuff is supposed to work against ME???

Seriously, it's very nice of Walpurgis Nacht to take the time to share what he has come up with. I admire that. Some would keep their discoveries to themselves. Thanks, Walpurgis.

Treeburst155 out.

[walpurgis nacht]

Originally posted by Treeburst155:

...and this stuff is supposed to work against ME???

Seriously, it's very nice of Walpurgis Nacht to take the time to share what he has come up with. I admire that. Some would keep their discoveries to themselves. Thanks, Walpurgis.

Treeburst155 out.

I have a catalog of such devices tucked away dear Treeburst. Let us hope you are in my section, so I can teach you your first lesson---what it means to be unpredictable. :cool:

[Treeburst155]

Hehe....maybe I can talk the ROW organizers into putting me into your section. I wanna see what you got in an all-out competition setting. Hehe...yeah....I'd love it.

Treeburst155 out.

[GreenAsJade]

Originally posted by Walpurgis Nacht:

(Amazing options for how to defend ...

Opening fire with the guys further back first!!???)

I hope this was helpful.

Awesome!! Give us more!!!

Thanks!!!

GaJ.

[Ace Pilot]

Originally posted by Treeburst155:

Hehe....maybe I can talk the ROW organizers into putting me into your section. I wanna see what you got in an all-out competition setting. Hehe...yeah....I'd love it.

Treeburst155 out.

All I can say is that now that Treeburst is in the same section with Walpurgis, you guys better produce some detailed AARs.

Good luck to both of you.

[Treeburst155]

I'll write an especially good AAR for my Walpurgis Nacht game, win or lose. It won't be very military; but I'll write it so you know my thinking every step of the way. I'll probably try to make it entertaining.

Treeburst155 out.

[jtcm]

Just some random remarks re historicalness (which, for me, does matter: I enjoy losing "with atmosphere" rather than playing to win-- but then I'm a poor player)

In CM, when two half-squads fire on one whole squad, the latter can only trade fire with one of the half-squads, due to game engine limitations. Treeburst 155 has criticised this as unrealistic: how can 10 men defeat 10 men in a shoot out ? (as opposed to 20 men, 2 squads, defeating 10 men).

But what does happen in real life when a squad starts taking fire, say lmg + aimed rifle fire, from one direction (=faustius' A half-squad), and then close range smg fire from a flanking, assaulting half-squad ? Treeburst protested against the CM situation, where not one man in the squad fires against the flankers; but how would a squad, in real life, react ? It would have to make some difficult decisions, under fire-- how to distribute volume of fire ? Concentrate or disperse ? Right now, the CM engine solution (1 squad fires at one half-squad) corresponds to the sergeant or whatever shouting "concentrate your fire on those guys" as a matter of SOP, rather than everyone deciding, for himself, to spray in direction of whichever of the two opposing half-squads to fire at. Not necessarily un realistic; though I don't know what real life norms, and practices, were.

Quite a while back, I posted something about tactics, as described in the Osprey book on the German infantryman, 1933-41 (vel sim). Infantry assault tactics were half-squad-o-centric as a matter of course: one half-squad lay down suppressive fire with the MG 34, the other leapt and bounded till it came to SMG and, especially, grenade squad (shades of WWI bombing tactics here). At the time, JasonC [does he still post here ?] and others recommended against using split squads in the attack; I thought this a simplification, for the sake of gameplay.

So possibly not so a-historical ? But I still loathe the idea of having to micro-manage herds of h.s. If I played CM at all (which I haven;t done in six months), I'd stick to Co sized actions.

Sorry for the johnny-come-lately post. Enjoyed the thread. Peace to all.

[jtcm]

another thought: I have a feelling that Treeburst's Rifle 1941 squad vs Smg squad shows that, even at close range, even in woods, if a SMG squad stands like a log. loses the first trigger pull, and lets itself be shot at by two groups of men with rifles running circles around it, and firing from widely divergent angles, it will swiftly have enough and run off. Not necessarily unrealistic. But if the SMG squad decides to fight, after the first minute, and can shake off the first shock, e.g. by splitting to fight, or by turning its full attention on one of the halfsquads and chewing it up good, the outcome might be different ? Or have I missed something ?

[GreenAsJade]

Originally posted by Treeburst155:

I'll write an especially good AAR for my Walpurgis Nacht game, win or lose. It won't be very military; but I'll write it so you know my thinking every step of the way. I'll probably try to make it entertaining.

Treeburst155 out.

I hope you won't be mistaking moaning about halfsquad usage for entertainment...

GaJ.

Steve, BFC: "If both sides play with all their squads in halves... it is more even, and in some ways a little more realistic."

[Treeburst155]

Originally posted by jtcm:

another thought: I have a feelling that Treeburst's Rifle 1941 squad vs Smg squad shows that, even at close range, even in woods, if a SMG squad stands like a log. loses the first trigger pull, and lets itself be shot at by two groups of men with rifles running circles around it, and firing from widely divergent angles, it will swiftly have enough and run off. Not necessarily unrealistic. But if the SMG squad decides to fight, after the first minute, and can shake off the first shock, e.g. by splitting to fight, or by turning its full attention on one of the halfsquads and chewing it up good, the outcome might be different ? Or have I missed something ?

The only thing you have missed is doing the test yourself so you can see for yourself and avoid unnecessary speculation. BTW, my test involved one Regular Russian Rifle squad (FP125 at 40mm) vs a split Regular German Squad with FP 62 each. Do anything you want with the whole squad. They will lose, and lose badly.

Treeburst155 out.

[Treeburst155]

Originally posted by GreenAsJade:

I hope you won't be mistaking moaning about halfsquad usage for entertainment

GaJ.

Steve, BFC: "If both sides play with all their squads in halves... it is more even, and in some ways a little more realistic."

I hope Steve doesn't mind you quoting him out of context. As for moaning about halfsquads in a competition AAR, not me. You should know by now I expect gamey stuff in a tournament.

Treeburst155.

[GreenAsJade]

Originally posted by Treeburst155:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by GreenAsJade:

I hope you won't be mistaking moaning about halfsquad usage for entertainment

GaJ.

Steve, BFC: "If both sides play with all their squads in halves... it is more even, and in some ways a little more realistic."

I hope Steve doesn't mind you quoting him out of context. . </font>