I may buy this game....but a few Q's.

[CHillDice]

I am 95% sure I am going to buy the bundle pack on July 1st but have a few questions first.

1) How good are the tutorials? Are the tuts in both game pretty through? I played a lot of RTS games then bought The Operational Art of War 2, and no tuts and got lost and gave it up, will this happen with these games??

2) If I do buy the bundle pack, what should I download before the it gets here? I figured the 3 patches for CMBB, but anything else??

3) I was thinking of borrowing one to my brother for him to try and if he likes it BAM B-DAY present for him, BUT should I play thought both first, or just play CMBB??

4) And last and possibly least how long did it take for your games to arrive?? I am in Minnesota, USA, and was just wondering when to expect it to arrive. And if you happen to know what company delivers them in the US. Fed Ex, UPS or postal service??

This seems like a plesent forum compared to the other I have been to so thank you in advance for the answers, and if or WHEN(?), I get the pack expect to see a lot more of me.

Thanks Again

[SFJaykey]

Don't have CMBO, but the tutorials in BB are good. I too, bought The Operational Art of War (forget which edition) but never caught on to it. CMBB is much more intuitive, and the tutorials (really walk-throughs of standard scenarios) are more helpful.

Not to say that they make the game "easy," since there is enough depth to the game that after completing the tutorials it took me several tries before I was even able to beat the AI once. And several more before I was able to do it with regularity, then several more games vs. human players before I could even hold my own. Now that I am somewhat proficient with the basics, the variety of troops, terrain, and battle types, not to mention the different playing styles of various human players, keeps throwing new challenges at me. So, if you meant to ask if you should play "through" CM, well, I don't see that happening for me, ever!

I live in CA and received my game 3 business days after ordering.

[Other Means]

hi CHillDice, welcome to the board.

i think the genius of the game is that it's easy to pick up but extremely hard to master.

i started playing a few months ago and got to the point of beating the AI (pretty quickly) but there were guys on this board talking about tactics that just didn't 'catch' with me.

it's only after playing a human that what they're saying is starting, very slowly, to come into focus. there is a much in this game as you are willing to look for but the basics are easy to understand.

it is that good.

[YankeeDog]

Welcome!! Here's my humble opinions on your questions.

1) In my opinion, the tutorials are so-so. They are perfectly good at teaching you the basic mechanics of the game, but be warned that if you don't have much previous knowledge about military tactics (and especially WWII-era tactics), you have a lot of learning to do before you'll be able to compete against a competent human player. The tactics required to win at CM are much closer to real-life tactics than any other wargame I have ever played. In order to play the game well, you need to understand and know how to use concepts like overwatch, reverse slope, suppressive fire, combined arms attack, etc.

The tutorials are not really designed to teach you this kind of stuff - they deal with some important tactical concepts in passing, but not in much detail. If you're starting more or less from scratch as far as tactical theory, you're likely to get lost a bit at first.

That's the bad news visa vis the tutorial scenarios. The good news is that there are quite a few members of this forum who are VERY knowledgable about military tactics, and have posted (at times at length) about what various tactical concepts mean within the framework of CM. If you can't find an answer to your question with a quick search of the "Tips & Tricks" forum, a quick and polite post will general get you several (sometimes contradictory!!) answers within minutes.

Basically, if you're willing to take some lumps the first few times you play, do some reading, and ask half-intelligent questions when you need to, the result can be a VERY rewarding gaming experience. Just don't expect to learn everything you need to know in the tutorials. FWIW, I had great fun getting my @ss handed to me on a silver platter in my first few CM games against the computer as I learned the ropes. . .

One other note: Contrary to what some threads on this forum might lead you to believe, it is not necessary to memorize the detailed technical specs of every tank and infantry unit to play CM well. Basic familiarity with various WWII weapon types will do you just fine, and you'll rapidly gain appreciation of various units' capabilities (or lack thereof!) as you play.

2. Eventually, you'll probably want to customize the look and sound of your CM with mods of vehicles and terrain not included with your bundle pack, but I would wait until you've played it a bit so you get a better idea of what kind of mods you like. Eventually, if you get into customizing your CM graphics and sounds, I would reccommend taking a look at CMMOS - a mod switching utility that lets you change your mod quickly and easily on an interface, rather than doing it manually in the game's .bmp and .wav folders.

You may also find Chris Hare's CM charts useful - they are an exhaustive list of very tank, infantry unit, and gun found in CM, along with basic technical specs for each unit. They're very handy for looking up comparing the capabilities of various units at a glance. They are available from the following link:

Chris Hare's Combat Mission Database

Of course, eventually, you'll want to be downloading additional scenarios to play, CM wallpaper, etc., but what's on the CDs should keep you going for quite a while. . .

3. You will never 'play through' either version of CM. I must admit I play CMBB mostly now as the game engine is a bit more advanced, but CMBO is still fun and lets me play Americans, which I'm kind of partial to. Try 'em both, and see which one you like better to start, and lend your brother the other one to get him hooked. There's nothing like a little sibling rivalry to spice a CM fight. . .

4. From my own experience and what I've read on the forums, except when the warehouse runs out and they have to do another run of CDs, delivery is generally pretty quick - my orders (I live in NYC) came in less than a week. The warehouse is in Vermont, so that may be a bit faster than average.

Cheers,

YD

[Guest konrad]

That very good explanations above ,so i put this simply (I hope you are in the right age ) -

This game sometimes its better then sex (literally).

[Broken]

Originally posted by lenakonrad:

That very good explanations above ,so i put this simply (I hope you are in the right age ) -

This game sometimes its better then sex (literally).

Hmmm, either I know less about CM than I think I do or you know less about sex than you think you do.

I have to admit though, I have had some girlfriend trouble over this damn game!

[moneymaxx]

I would like to add my opinion too, though some thing have already been mentioned.

1)

I really can’t remember the tutorials of CMBO and CMBB and I don’t think that you really need them. The interface of CM is very easy to understand. For example you click on a tank, press M for move and then click on the map where you want the tank to move to. It’s that simple! After you’ve given all the orders CM calculates a 3d-movie in which you can see the results of your orders. During this movie replay you can’t do anything, though sometimes you would like to . BTW, the manuals that ship with the games are very good and easy to read.

As YankeeDog pointed out, there is more to learn but since CM isn’t that abstract like many board games common sense will help a great deal. CM is a bit like chess in this aspect, learning how to move your pieces is easy but to be a good chess/cm player takes a while.

An example: You have to move a infantry platoon out of a wood over 300m flat, open ground to destroy the last remaining enemy MG in a heavy building, it’s windy. You’ve got the infantry platoon 2 light mortars with smoke shells, a light infantry gun and a jeep (the jeep and gun are 600m away and don’t have Line Of Sight to the MG).

Tactic a )

You give your inf platoon orders to boldly charge the heavy building while everybody else has a coffee break and press go. Result: the platoon charges, the enemy MG opens fire, your platoon drops to the ground, is pinned then panics and tries to get back to the woods while being shot at. A total failure .

Tactic

The same as above but this time the mortars fire smoke shells in front of the house to block LOS and you give your platoon to wait some seconds before charging so that the smoke screen can build up. Result: The platoon charges, the enemy MG can’t see a thing because of the smoke, your platoon nearly makes it to the house but then the smoke screen disappears because it’s windy (this is not modelled in CMBO where smoke screens disappear after a set time). The MG opens fire and causes some casualties but half your men make it to the house and take out the MG in close combat. A success but you lost many men.

Tactic c)

If you have time to do so (all battles have a turn limit) you could embark the light gun on the jeep drive it out of LOS of the MG to the woods where your infantry is waiting, disembark the gun, move them into the woods (all the time you have to make sure that the MG can’t see the gun!), fire smoke in front of the house EDIT: with the mortars, move the gun forward so that it would have LOS to the house if the smoke screen wasn’t there. When the smoke clears you have everybody fire on the house. The mortar HE (high explosive) shells and your inf platoon might not inflict any damage because the MG is in a heavy building but they might keep their heads down while your gun is pumping one HE shell after another into the house, which after a while will result in a dead MG.

A lot of work, but if you’re lucky you don’t loose 1 man.

Think what would work in real life and it most probably works in CM too. That includes that you have to know more or less how those weapons worked in real life. E.g. you have to know the difference between an AP, a HE and a HC shell but basic knowledge is sufficient.

2)

Download the demos.

3)

CMBB is the more realistic game, therefore it is less forgiving and sometimes only the class C tactics work, which might be a lot of work. In CMBO even tactic a of the example might work (with very heavy losses) since infantry is more robust and MGs less deadly. I think CMBO is a good game for the beginner and might be considered a tutorial for CMBB.

4)

I have no opinion, I live in Europe . But someone I know who lives in Austin/TX got his copy of CMBB in 3 days.

[ June 23, 2003, 07:21 PM: Message edited by: moneymaxx ]

[Guest konrad]

Originally posted by Broken:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by lenakonrad:

That very good explanations above ,so i put this simply (I hope you are in the right age ) -

This game sometimes its better then sex (literally).

Hmmm, either I know less about CM than I think I do or you know less about sex than you think you do.

I have to admit though, I have had some girlfriend trouble over this damn game! </font>

[Three_Oh_Eight]

Welcome, CD.

What they said. Since you're a wargamer I can join the chorus and assure you that it'll be money well spent.

As well, I have to say that the community, both fan and the company, are exceptional. I have limited experience with 'puter games, so I could be misguided, but the fan interaction, company support, and community support (scenarios, tourneys, etc), seem of a much higher order than the typical 'scene' around a game.

Must be that they're (hell, *we're*... I've been around a few months now), just all so much more mature than the average game geek.

[MeatEtr]

Kiss your social life good bye.

Oh, and always keep your new bible(manual) close by.

[HeinzBaby]

G'day CHillDice, get the demo's,

I downloaded the CMBB demo and have been flogging it to death, good 'hands on' experience whilst I waited for the Sim to arrive in the post. This only took 5 working days, from last monday week when I ordered it to this monday waiting for me when I got home from work, It had to travel from the East coast of USA to West Australia! now thats bloody good going!!. The demo is great!!, its small enough to get a handle on the game system. A good analogy is the rock, scissor, paper routine, 'wrong' tactics will get you hammered as apposed to 'correct' ones seeing your opponent slaughtered...mmm..must get CMBO now..

[mike_the_wino]

Originally posted by HeinzBaby:

...mmm..must get CMBO now..

Or you can wait for CMAK. All the tweaks of CMBB and no need to download bunches of mods. Additionally, CMBO plays so differently from CMBB I never play CMBO...and I LOVE the ETO.

[zukkov]

it's good game! you buy! no more discussion! have nice day..

[GreenAsJade]

Tutorials are pretty optional.

One comment I would make is that I'd recommend considering starting with CMBO before taking on CMBB. Either that, or start with "veteran" and "crack" troops only if you play with CMBB.

Otherwise, it could be very frustrating. CMBB forces are much more fragile than CMBO ones. This is more realistic, probably, and more challenging certainly, but I can easily imagine a beginner getting totally put off when all his troops panic and run away or die at first contact.

As someone else said somewhere recently, CMBO is like eating popcorn: pretty light fun.

[Maj. Battaglia]

To answer your question 2, I think BFdotC ships out CDs with the updates. So they should now be shipping v1.03 and you do not need the patches. Someone correct me if I am wrong.

[Ligur]

Check out the demos, if you're a wargamer you'll love.

CM:BB/CM:BO are easy and instinctive to learn so don't be worried, but very hard to master. Today there is the "newbie" thread that is stickied (stickied: always at the top of the forum) in this forum and another "anthology of useful posts" which is stickied in the "Tips and Tricks" forum, both of which you could skim through and learn all you really need. Units like infantry in the can be abstractions, but how the game itself looks or the user interface are not. Instead they are beautiful (especially when you modify the game with various user created graphics called mods, by God, the mods, the MODS) 3D environments where you control your men by cliking on them, selecting an order then clicking on the map.

A word of warning: When I got CM:BB I was a CM:BO veteran of hundreds of games and with the first demo I was put off by the feeling my infantry is too fragile to be handled at all and the game has turned so slow, but now I understand my infantry is still quite robust and there is plenty of fast movement: You just 1) do not move them in the open or light cover when under fire, you hug the ground 2) you don't have any idea who is shooting who from longer ranges at times, for example you just can't see your company is getting shot by three HMGs, you just see some "infantry sound" IDs in the horizon. These are the things that got me confused the first time out. Now I've learned my lessons, but still feel some of my friends from CM:BO times still haven't really given CM:BB the chance it deserves because of having to re-learn the game.

EDIT: Must add, I've been involved in some gaming communities before CM, but the CM community by far is the most mature, helpful and friendly one. Some games have vibrant communities when they get released that slowly dwindle after everyone has played "through" the game. Others, like FPS game communities feature a lot of bad behaviour, poor grammar and what have you. You don't find the negatives here much, and amazingly a very large percent of the community is actively involved in making the game better, almost everyone seems to have their own little mod or 2000 (MikeyD, AndrewTF, MrNoobie, DD and such heroes of modding) or contribute to scenarios, their testing, research etc.

[ June 24, 2003, 02:09 AM: Message edited by: Ligur ]

[Rob Murray]

I should add that if you buy the game do a search for the Jaegermeister advanced tutorial here on the forum. Unfortunately this one area where the manual was poorly written ( fortunately, though, the rest of the book is very well done by wargame standards - something that seems to be pretty rare these days - a lot of the time your lucky if you get a paper manual at all ).

If you do buy the game you'll be pleased though. This is one that's playable " right out of the box " ( no need to immediately download patches to get it to go ).

[ June 24, 2003, 03:04 AM: Message edited by: Rob Murray ]

[CHillDice]

Thanks guys come early July 1st, I shall be ordering my copy of the bundle pack. I think I will play though all the tutorials then start may way in CMBO.

So keep a light on for me cause I'LL BE BACK......what I have to pay to use that son of a......stupid copyright lawyers.

[MikeyD]

Since you live in the U.S. you can buy straight from BFC, which means you get their nice VERY thick printed manual (our Euro friends get a pfd manual due to German software packaging laws). As a newbie you'll find this manual very useful indeed.

Your questions have been answered 3 times over but I'll trow in my 2¢.

1.) The tutorials are superfluous no more easy or difficult than playing the scenarios.

2.) You probably don't have to download a darned thing before you get the game. I'd be surprised if the v1.03 upgrade issn't shipping on the CD.

Just for fun go trolling the mod sites to see what's out there. Can't go wrong with free cool stuff!

3.) Download the free demos. Be warned the CMBB demo doesn't half capture the feel of the full game.

4.) You'll probably get it so fast your head will spin.

[Madmatt]

Originally posted by Maj. Battaglia:

To answer your question 2, I think BFdotC ships out CDs with the updates. So they should now be shipping v1.03 and you do not need the patches. Someone correct me if I am wrong.

Actually while CMBO will not need any patches applied to it, the CD for CMBB will need the 1.03 patch applied as the current shipping version is still 1.02.

Madmatt