rexford Posted May 1, 2004 Share Posted May 1, 2004 Going through several sources through the years, there seems to be plenty regarding German conversions of the 76.2mm L51.5 Russian gun (used on early Marders and as an anti-tank gun), but nothing on converted ZIS-3 guns (L41.5). Did the Germans convert any of the shorter barreled L41.5 ZIS-3 Model 42 76.2mm field guns and use them as anti-tank guns? In a slightly related vein, did the Germans fire German made ammo or Russian APBC in the captured T34 tanks that were used by German forces? A few books have German tables of penetration by T34 guns firing German made ammo, which suggests that the Germans may have rebored the T34 guns to take a German made round with much higher homogeneous penetration than the Russian APBC. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonC Posted May 1, 2004 Share Posted May 1, 2004 And use them as anti-tank guns, I doubt it. Used them, certainly. A captured 76L51 that has been rechambered for German PAK 40 ammo was designated 36®. The 36 is for the year of the Russian 76L51 gun. It seems only those rechambered were designated this way. Captured 76L51s used without rechambering, using captured Russian ammo, were designated 296®. They were not the only Russian 76s captured and used. Others were designated 295®, and apparently were shorter, around 40 calibers, almost certainly ZIS-3s. (Though I have seen confusion about that in sources - about the difference between a 295 and a 296 I mean. Some apparently just lump "captured Russian 76" under the first such designation they see). They seem to have been used mostly in div arty battalions - e.g. in some Luftwaffe field, 700 series static, a number of 200 series mobile IDs. I've run across at least one 300 series ID with one battalion of the div arty equipped with Russian 76mm guns. In mid 1944 they still had many battalions so equipped, in divisional artillery. Rechambered 76L51s are instead found in Panzerjaeger battalions or mounted on Marders. I've never seen any evidence these were rechambered. If they were, Pak97/38 ammo aka French 75 would be a likely candidate, but that is just guesswork. I don't think you'd want to try firing PAK 40 ammo from a 76L41.5. But the purpose of their use was predominately to toss HE, not anti-tank. The Germans undoubtedly captured tons of Russian 76mm HE. They probably just used them as is. The Germans also captured and made use of a small number of 76mm Russian infantry guns - one source I saw said 1800 of those. But they are much shorter caliber obviously. They liked the large wheels for movement in muddy conditions. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattias Posted May 2, 2004 Share Posted May 2, 2004 As far as I can see I would agree on them not being used as dedicated AT-guns. The designations for the guns in question would be: The 76,2 mm Pushka obr. 1942 g/ZiS-3 (76-42) was known as 7,62 cm Feldkanone 288 ® in German service and.. The 76,2 mm Pushka obr. 1941 g/ZiS-3 (76-41) as 288/1 ®. The latter was the quick war time solution of mounting the 76,2 mm gun on the 57 mm AT gun, what's it called, carriage whereas the former was the late 1942 model with a newly designed carriage. The 288/1 was quite rare, the 288 on the other hand, were common, and apparently well liked by German gunners. The guns designated 295/1 and 295/2 are two models of the 76,2 mm obr. 1902/30 gun. (All according to Gander & Chamberlain, Enzyklopädie Deutscher Waffen) M. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonC Posted May 2, 2004 Share Posted May 2, 2004 Aha, thanks for the correction. So 288 = Zis-3, 296 = L51, the long barrel, and 295 = the infantry guns (1902/30). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattias Posted May 2, 2004 Share Posted May 2, 2004 The infantry gun, I think, is the 290 ®, 76 mm Polkovaja Pushka obr. 1927 g (76-27). The 295's are more like regular artillery pieces, 455-680 m/s Vo and 9500 - 13000 meters(depending on model and charge), compared to 387 m/s Vo and 8850 meter for the 290 ®. Model 1902 guns that were updated in the 30's, older models that is. The Germans kept on using them throughout the war though. Same source... M:) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonC Posted May 3, 2004 Share Posted May 3, 2004 Right you are, 1927 not 1930 is the infantry gun. Gee I'm really helpful on all of this aren't I? - lol. At any rate, they used lots of Russian 76s as field artillery, only the long L51s particularly as PAK. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted May 3, 2004 Share Posted May 3, 2004 Just some added info. Fretter-Pico in his memoirs refers to the m1927 infantry gun as well-liked and used in great numbers. Fleischer & Eiermann in "Die motorisierte und Panzerartillerie des deutschen Heeres" mention that the 76mm guns used in divisional artillery battalions were not well suited for indirect fire, because the small size of the explosion made observation difficult. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rexford Posted May 3, 2004 Author Share Posted May 3, 2004 Thanks for all the helpful responses. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted May 3, 2004 Share Posted May 3, 2004 I've seen exactly ONE photo of a Russian ZIS-3 gun in German service. One of those common American photos of a collection of captured German anti-tank guns in a field . I saw it awhile ago, I'm trying to recall where the photo was taken. 70% chance it was taken in France, 30% chance it was in Italy. I'd bet money that the ZIS-3 gun wasn't rebored (admittedly, not based on anything). I've never quite understood how the Germans could rebore a 76.2mm barrel to accept 75mm ammo. The numbers seem to go in the wrong direction! I can imagine rechambering to accept a German bottle-shaped case mated to a 76.2mm shell, though the Russian guns in German service still certainly use the Russian breech. [ May 03, 2004, 04:09 PM: Message edited by: MikeyD ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Murphy Posted May 4, 2004 Share Posted May 4, 2004 While some of the info below is not directly pertinent to the captured ZIS-3 gun, it provides an idea how much the Germans relied on captured Russian artillery and AT Guns. In refernce to this list, my bet was very little was rechamberd to accept German rounds late in the war. From mid-January 1944 Army Group North records, Inventory of captured Russian guns in use: Light Field Guns (75mm, 105mm) 18th Army-54, 16th Army - 229 Anti-tank guns (76.2mm) 18th Army-15, 16th Army-43 Medium Field Pieces (122mm-152/155mm) 18th Army-36, 16th Army-44 Light Mortars (77mm) 18th Army-65, 16th Army-46 Heavy Mortars (280mm,305mm) 18th Army-0, 16th Army-26 Source: Heeresgruppe Nord Ia Kreigsgleiderung T-311, Reel 70, 16 January 1944; National Archives, washington D.C. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tero Posted May 4, 2004 Share Posted May 4, 2004 Originally posted by MikeyD: I've seen exactly ONE photo of a Russian ZIS-3 gun in German service. One of those common American photos of a collection of captured German anti-tank guns in a field . I saw it awhile ago, I'm trying to recall where the photo was taken. 70% chance it was taken in France, 30% chance it was in Italy. I'd bet money that the ZIS-3 gun wasn't rebored (admittedly, not based on anything). I've never quite understood how the Germans could rebore a 76.2mm barrel to accept 75mm ammo. The numbers seem to go in the wrong direction! I can imagine rechambering to accept a German bottle-shaped case mated to a 76.2mm shell, though the Russian guns in German service still certainly use the Russian breech. The ZIS-3 76,5 was not rebored to 75mm since the 75mm is nominally smaller than the 76,2mm. They did rebore the 76,2mm and 85mm AA guns to 88mm. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Tittles Posted May 5, 2004 Share Posted May 5, 2004 So the SU-76 only used the shorter gun? Did the soviets have any L51 guns in a SP role? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Murphy Posted May 5, 2004 Share Posted May 5, 2004 Originally posted by Tero: Originally posted by MikeyD: I've seen exactly ONE photo of a Russian ZIS-3 gun in German service. One of those common American photos of a collection of captured German anti-tank guns in a field . I saw it awhile ago, I'm trying to recall where the photo was taken. 70% chance it was taken in France, 30% chance it was in Italy. I'd bet money that the ZIS-3 gun wasn't rebored (admittedly, not based on anything). I've never quite understood how the Germans could rebore a 76.2mm barrel to accept 75mm ammo. The numbers seem to go in the wrong direction! I can imagine rechambering to accept a German bottle-shaped case mated to a 76.2mm shell, though the Russian guns in German service still certainly use the Russian breech. The ZIS-3 76,5 was not rebored to 75mm since the 75mm is nominally smaller than the 76,2mm. They did rebore the 76,2mm and 85mm AA guns to 88mm. I doubt they actually did it.. but it is possible to sleeve some artillery barrels. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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