Yelnia Stare

[Sidious]

I played this in the demo earlier, and I was wondering how some of you old hands beat it.

I started it with the default setup and sent everything I had straight forward. I wasn't paying much attention to my left side, so I didn't notice the complete failure of my tactics over there. My tanks on the right and middle advanced slowly, and took out the guns. Eventually I finished off the units on the right side and noticed that I was till losing-even with one flag in my posession and (what I believed) minimal losses. Turns out my left flank had been pinned down by a handful of soldiers (7-8 groups of conscripts, 3-4 groups of Nazis....) and I couldn't bring them forward-I eventually had to go infantry-killing with my tanks. I might have ended up with a draw if the guns had taken out even 2 of my tanks...

What did you do?

[Falcon988]

I don't remember what I did. I played as the Germans and was cut to pieces by the T-34's. I did manage to cause a lot of infantry casualties in some areas though by just waiting for the Soviets to get close before firing, but I still lost the battle miserably. Didn't feel bad though since it was a historical defeat

[Slappy]

This is a tough one either way. It sounds like you're on the right track redwise. You want to use your armor far farther ahead than would make me comfortable in your average encounter. Use them to take down the guns and to kill infantry. The soviet infantry in this scenario are truly miserable. When they break, just reform and move forward again. If most of your T-34s survive the guns, you'll eventually overrun the sparse germans with sheer weight of numbers. Don't feel that you need to attack on the whole front if you don't want to. Pushing harder into the woods on the right will allow you to flank the rest of the german position if you can control them. Also, get down to ground level and really check out the terrain. Although it appears pretty flat from the russian side, there are two or three relatively covered routes, although none that are entirely blind.

As the germans, you need to try to prevent this strategy from working. You're best bet is to open at extreme range with mortars and MGs. Try to break as many russian squads as possible without exposing yourself to return fire from the T-34s. When the T-34s come up to look around, paste them with the guns.

I found this to be interesting as a demonstration of CMBB and how different it was from BO. It also shows how hard it is to attack with conscripts and defend with only light guns and no schrecks. On the other hand, I didn't find it that fun. The open area means that there is little opportunity to reposition the defense once the attacker shows his plan, and continually picking up broken squads and throwing them forward is a lot of clicking for little result.

That's my recollection anyway.

[Sidious]

We had 3 scenarios in the demo-Yelnia, "Panzers Break Through", and the tutorial.

Yelnia was the best of them.

[dangerousdave]

I thought this was a tough one too. But was surprised when I did get my tanks up to the front how quickly the german line buckled. The machine gun fire kept my troops on the left constantly pinned, broken, routed, etc. Of course, those are the conscripts. But my good troops on the right were able to advance slowly. Once I realized there were no more guns about to pop out and nail the T-34's I took them right up to the enemy positions. They uprooted the machine guns and sent the enemy running. I also managed to sneak a couple of squads on the left side all the way up to the march and over to flank that position. A final human wave charge (supported by tanks) from all troops within range lead to my being able to capture all the flags.

I thought it was a good lesson in how damn bloody the easter front was. Meanwhile, AK arrived in the mailbox and I'm turning back to that....

[Redwolf]

I won this one as the attacker against a human opponent, although we never exchanged the formal end turn.

I think the key factors were:

1) keep in mind what the size of the MG supressive area is and keep out of know target points

2) always push on infantry but never hard. Every turn, make sure you get people going again. Watch your morale+ HQs

3) don't be too shy with the T-34, if they are forward the MGs work a lot better

4) set up proper spotting, use binocular units to stand and watch the defense line

5) try to break into the open area in the defense line, it is ricky but has huge morale hit for the defender if you have unit behind him

Overall, a win or loss in the CM sense in this scenario depends a lot on knockout points.

To win as the attacker you can get your infantry supressed as much as you want, as long as they are not killed. Always watch high-point units - HQs, mortars, tank commanders, tanks. It is easy to have HQs strolling around in front of your troops because they have better quality and morale, watch it and keep them back.

I don't remember details but I think I had a designated assault force of the best troops and good higher HQs.

[V]

Mass all your Soviet infantry on your left flank. Advance over the hill, then use Human Wave tactic. Keep Company HQ's close so that they can rally routed troops. Don't let your tanks get too far forward. Put all your mortars in the woods on your right, under command of your battalion HQ. Use the mortars to support the infantry when possible and supress AT guns when spotted.

Keep up the bloody infantry assault on the enemy right, eventually you should break their position there and be able to roll up their entire line.

thats how I did it in a PBEM, anyways.

[JasonC]

As the Russians and against the AI, I found this a cakewalk. I did not settle for the default set up and extensively revised the tasking and plan, and I made the attack at a deliberate pace, with no rushing. I lost 40 men and the AI surrendered its remaining force on turn 22.

The Russians have 3 companies, only one of which are conscripts. I made them my reserve and planned to use them as a second wave behind my right. They lost only 2 men - to early light arty fire - and hit only 3 themselves, as they were not really needed. They added weight to the attack, though, and were important to its overall plan.

My basic plan was a wing attack on the right side of the map. Because of the number of men, this actually stretched to the right 2/3rds. I formed one company of all greens, one of mixed regulars and greens, and gave the latter the right wing. It was directed at the wheatfield initially. The center company was directed on either side of the burning woods, basically up the middle of the map.

Initially the conscript company was deep in the scattered trees and woods on the right side of the map. They moved up to the forward parts of this cover after the leading company on that wing had moved out - around turn 5, not in any rush. They remained motionless there until turn 10, when they ordered their first move forward, into the wheatfield area. I used "human wave" to make that move. Another wave bound brought them up to the brush area, shy of the woods, around turn 15. They entered the right side woods starting around turn 18 through 20, helping to clear it. One platoon was left of those woods in brush, firing over the leading wave ahead of them, from about turn 15 on.

The main attack consisted of the two leading companies using "advance" to get into the brush areas near the German positions. They drew MG fire but at first got only sound contacts because of the range. I just kept going, with the guys actually shot at halting and waiting, and everyone else advancing further.

There was no great rush. The only prep fire I did was to have the tanks toss a bit of their HE, area fire, into the near portions of the full woods areas on the first 2-3 minutes. The 76mm FO was ordered to shell the right side main woods on minute 10. I used planned fire to make it accurate and because I knew I wasn't going to shift it anyway - there aren't enough shells to make it worthwhile to try.

The MMGs and 50mm mortars were organized into 5 overwatch platoons. One was based on the battalion HQ and had only 1 50mm mortar - as it happened, that mortar was also KOed early by German shellfire. All the other groups had 2x50mm mortar. All had 2xMMG and an HQ. I used the weapons HQ and 3 company HQs for this. The conscript quality company HQ I put with the reserve conscripts, rather than having it try to lead an overwatch group.

The overwatch groups were tasked as follows. One behind the center company, meant to advance slightly once that company was 100-200m ahead to draw most of the German fire. Another behind the right side company, likewise. The battalion HQ one was in between these, behind the left side of the right hand company. It likewise planned to advance a modest distance once that company was on its way. In the meantime they just moved up to the starting line cover when the line infantry cleared the area.

The last 2 overwatch groups were on either side of the reserve, conscript company. One in woods at the right edge, the other in brush to the left of the tree area. These had the conscript quality weapons. They intended to fire exclusively from their starting positions, without attempting any advance.

The tanks were positioned behind the two leading companies. They supported by fire initially, from well back. Once the leading companies had advanced 100-150m, they moved up roughly level with the infantry - in a few places slightly ahead - and halted again. The infantry passed them, and after that the tanks kept station about 50-100m behind the leading infantry. One platoon worked with each leading company. I did not bother subdividing below that (e.g. assigning a tank to each platoon), as the ground is open enough for the fire of the whole platoon to deal with whatever appears.

It was turn 7 that the first full IDs were made. The German regular infantry was firing by then. On turn 8, the number of full IDs rose to 4, along with several sound contacts, and I decided it was time to stop advancing. Everyone went to ground and just fired back. Every full ID got a tank's attentions, a pair of mortars, and MGs, along with fire by full platoons of regular infantry. I didn't care if my infantry was in th open at the time. Just shoot the heck out of the ones near enough to be full IDs.

I kept that up through the 10th minute. Only the smallest advances, by guys not currently being shot and not in brush or shellhole cover. Guys on sideways "sneak" (cover panic from being shot in the open) just halted. I had lost about a dozen men to this point, split between scattered losses to light FOs and HMGs at range.

By the later portions of this firefight period, I was putting 1 MMG from the heavy weapons groups on each running or cowering target ("pursuit by fire", to prevent rally), a pair of mortars and at least one tank on anyone actually firing. I was still taking some fire from sound contacts every minute, so I could not stop all the incoming. I didn't care. Every minute I chewed the heck out of the nearest 4 targets or so. The ranges to the forward infantry were 100-200m. The heavy weapons were firing at 350-500m.

On turn 11 I judge enough of this had happened to "lift" again. Everybody was also rested. I went back to advancing with the forward companies. The tanks and heavy weapons continued to fire on anything fully IDed. Whole platoons continued to fire at the nearest during their 20-30 second order delays, as well. There were already scattered fully KIAed German units by now.

Anyone pinned just sat where he was with orders to shoot - same for anyone who started "sneaking". The 76s started landing at this time and the reserve company made its first rush to the wheatfield. The forward companies were well ahead of that by then, and the conscripts drew no fire at all. I lost another dozen men during the firefight period.

As I executed the "lift" it became clear the German left side was stronger but the right was weak. One unit was firing on the right side but was rapidly overwhelmed despite the advancing (there were 4 KIAed units around and ahead of it). But on the left, the leftmost platoon was pinned down with 2 squads broken, despite trailing the center guys by 100m or so. And the center two platoons found full IDs popping up at ranges down to 75m, ahead of them and to their left front, while some of them were in the open.

A gun also fired at this time, but the tanks turned on it and KOed it rapidly. (The other had apparently been KOed by the T-34 prep fire, back in the first few minutes. I didn't realize this until quite late).

My reaction to the heavy going on my center and left was to simply halt that portion of the attack. One HQ went backward to help pick up broken guys. Most squads just stopped right where they were and went back to firing. This meant some stranded in the open, 75m from enemies and 30m from cover. I counted on firepower to protect them, not movement to a less exposed place.

The right side tanks all shifted their fire to their left, shooting at nearly 90 degrees to the initial axis of the attack. All the heavy weapons that could bear, fired leftward. The slope of the ground kept about half of them out of that part of the fight, but by having the leftmost fire as far left as possible, then the next group taking the next leftmost, etc, I was able to get about half of them to help the left side company. The leftmost platoon of the right company also fired leftward, while the others to their right kept advancing.

The pause lasted a coupled of minutes. I halted the sideways sneakers repeatedly. When the fire slackened, the guys in the open made for the nearest brush or shellhole forward, using "advance". Anyone actually under fire made no attempt to move. By turn 15, leading guys on the right were getting to the edge of the heavy woods, the center had cleared up and men there were starting to rally, and the reserve company was coming up behind and adding its fire at 250m, over the forward guys, to the general suppression.

I lost the last dozen men in this period, mostly on my left.

The tiny German force simply cannot withstand this sort of firepower attack. It can fire for a minute or two, but cannot stand in front of an entire battalion and 6 T-34s in mediocre cover for any length of time. They simply come apart. The key is simply not to press the brittle Russian infantry forward too hard, and not to obsess over getting to cover or maintaining movement. Shoot instead. With all heavy weapons, too - don't get those shot to pieces trying to advance them, when they can fire just fine from the start line or at most 100m beyond it.

By turn 18, Russian infantry swept into the heavy woods on the right. There was little left to stop them. One platoon of the conscripts did a third "wave" into the woods, then used "move" to sweep it. Two platoons of better guys were already ahead of them, crossed the narrow part of the woods, and began firing leftward at the center woods area from excellent cover. A second conscript platoon "waved" in to back them up, and to provide cover fire from the same positions when they moved out for the middle objective.

In the center, the forward edge of the center woods continued to spit out fire for a while. Every remaining mortar fired at it, along with the right side T-34 platoon. The center front platoons each picked a full ID "shooter" and concentrated their fire on them, one at a time. By turn 20 the center woods have practically a company ahead and another to the right at 100m range, melting anything that showed itself.

There were some holdouts on the left front for a while. My infantry over there had been delayed by pinning fire early, rallying a few broken guys, etc. I just pushed the left T-34 platoon forward somewhat, concentrated a bit to help cover each other, and they fired left front at 80-120m into these holdouts. A few minutes of that left KIAed German units scattered over the area, and a few "old spots" in the hollows. The left side infantry then "lifted" easily, with long moves, to close to the cover. They got tired but it didn't matter anymore.

I was set up to send three platoons into the center woods from 2 directions, overwatched by 3 more and by all the tanks, when the last Germans surrendered instead. I had already taken a few PWs. Almost everyone else was broken. One HMG with 5 men, and the company HQ, were about all that was left.

Everything contributed. The 76mm FO was awared 5 men and a 50mm mortar. The MMGs counted 9 men and did plenty of suppressing - their ammo was in most cases down to around 30, meaning they took around 400-500 shots between them. One 50mm had been KOed and 1 had 5 rounds remaining - all the rest had been expended. They were awared 3 men. The two forward companies counted 20 apiece, with the left platoon (and the conscripts) too far to do much before the fight ended, but the other 5 front ones scoring 6-12 each. The tanks did the rest.

I never had more than a few squads broken at any given time. I often had half a dozen pinned, but I just never asked them to do anything (except fire back when they could). The heavy weapons line, in addition to providing supporting fire, provided company HQs to rally any squads that fell behind. Several did, from a long pin or what-not, but all rallied and went back to their platoon.

Don't push too hard. If you try to run the Germans off their feet in one go, you will maximize the disorder their fire can cause. You will cut your reply fire in half per unit time, and quarter it by trying to do it all too fast, as well. Instead, make full use of rally, full use of fire by everyone (except the conscripts, until later - the second half of the fight), full use of ammo depth. The Germans do not have the cover, number of men, or morale to withstand the sustained application of your whole firepower.

[JasonC]

Extended remarks on the "advancing" portion. As stated, I got my first full IDs on turn 7. That is because I advanced only about 150m in the first 7 minutes. This is typical of full use of "advance" to cross areas with limited cover, with a large infantry force.

Advancing does not mean lining everyone up shoulder to shoulder and giving them all a big, long "advance" waypoint all the way off at the objective. It is a micromanagement intensive "drill", a whole elaborate set of infantry movement standard operating procedures.

Units maintain proper spread. That often means they are in some depth, front to back, because there isn't enough room to put the whole force online with proper intervals. A typical Russian platoon is moving in a square, 2 squads ahead and 2 trailing them, with the HQ in between. They therefore only need 2 spots of cover at each distance from the enemy (a third is nice, for the HQ and for flexibility).

Not everyone moves. Some are "tiring" from a previous advance. Some are "cautious" from incoming HMG fire, but are in brush, wheat, or best of all a shellhole. Some just don't have a spot to head for yet because others ahead of them are using them all. Some are waiting for their HQ to get close enough for the next "bound" to be possible while staying in command. Some are on command delay. The advance waypoints are 50 to 100m long, to keep from tiring the men out. The command delay time is used for rest and rally.

This all means the enemy shooters see a caterpillar of different units hopping from shellhole to shellhole or brush patch to brush patch. If they shoot at the nearest ones, the moving ones, the ones in the open - then they are shooting at different units in this half of the minute and that half, or at least different ones from minute to minute.

This spreads the pain around, and gives everyone a chance to rally. Long portions of the approach are spent in cover, even if it is only 45% to 60% exposure cover. That is still better than the open. The range is also typically long (because you only need to do this to close and get full IDs. Once you have targets you can shoot back).

Well, a modest number of shooters (HMGs with good range and ammo) shooting at numerous targets in 50% cover over many minutes of rally time, just do not break them. They pin some, they hit a man here or there. But they do not break the whole formation. The formation does not move forward at 100m per minute, as it could with a long "move" order. But it does move, without breaking, indeed without any serious lasting damage.

If the enemy tries to stop you by using many more shooters - all his squad infantry e.g. - then he can't keep up the ammo expenditure for long. You go to ground. At long range into any kind of cover, mere small arms are not going to break you. Especially once your tanks and mortars etc can reduce the incoming by taking some of the shooters out.

The idea is to rally through the enemy's firepower, to ride it out, instead of trying to ram through it to right on top of him. That is what I meant by "no rush" in the previous post. Don't be afraid of the enemy's fire. Don't let it panic you.

Don't think you have to kill all his shooters, or get out of his LOS, or get into perfect cover, or you are dead. Not so. Range, modest forms of cover, and time to rally can protect you some, when you are too far to see the shooters. Once you are close enough to see them, your own fire can protect you.