SteppenWolf Posted May 19, 2003 Share Posted May 19, 2003 After playing a few quick battles I wonder if my force composition for mechanised forces or the AI's is completly wrong My favorite battles are in the 1500 to 2000 points range depending on the year with the AI defending, since it's attack skills are pretty limited... If I build design my forces I normaly end up with medium tanks building the backbone of the armored part of my force, a few lights like a Pz II or armored cars for scouting and if available one heavy to deal with the unexpected keept in reserve. My inf. is normaly a company of regular inf, one or two platoons mixed of recons and pioneers depending on what I expect and where the fight is, with some heavy weapons (mg, 81 mm mortars etc). I think this would make a pretty much "regular" force for an attack. Now what wonders me is that the computer on the defence throws tons of scout cars at me and things like T-70's and buys for example tons of trenches that the AI never uses. Actually more often I use the computers trenches as positions for my troops. Basically I wonder if it would be really so hard to make the AI actually buy troops that match the role the computer takes over. As a defender I would not have bought tons of scout cars but invested into mg's, guns and a few fast mediums like the T-34 to give some flexiblity. So basically I wonder if I'm the only one that things that the AI force composition in QB is really crazy SteppenWolf 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted May 20, 2003 Share Posted May 20, 2003 As far as I can tell the computer selector only throws stuff at you that it chooses with a random generator from the list of available choices, without any weighting whatsoever for realism. It doesn't even seem to take rarity into account. The only reason why you end up with realistic forces more often than not is that there are more variants of the common vehicles. So a Panzer III with 8 variants has a 4 times bigger chance to be chosen over a Tiger with 2 variants. But the downside is that stuff like engineer infantry and APCs on defense are drawn often and you end up with insufficient AT weapons often (only one Schreck variant, early in the war not enough AT gun variants and no HC for howitzers). I don't rate the current computer selector and usable for fun or competitive play. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted May 20, 2003 Share Posted May 20, 2003 THE AI QB opponent selector seems a bit more than random. If you choose a couple platoons of light tanks for yourself you'll most likely find yourself facing light-meduim tanks. If you choose Tigers the AI will probably choose a IS-2s and ISUs. If you choose a Sturmtiger the AI will probably purchase attack aircraft! Sometimes this is a convenient feature, sometimes it's annoying. Last night I picked all infantry defending a village with a single KT in hiding. I was hoping to get overrun with lots of T-34s and infantry but the AI knew what I had selected and spent all its points on big guns. I guess that's why properly built scenarios have all the advantage. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterX Posted May 20, 2003 Share Posted May 20, 2003 Redwolf posted: I don't rate the current computer selector and usable for fun or competitive play. Examples? I totally disagree. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seanachai Posted May 20, 2003 Share Posted May 20, 2003 Well, you could try buying a more 'realistic' force for the Defender yourself. Of course I realize that takes all the 'surprise' out of it, but if you and the AI were willing to try a little role-playing, and weren't afraid to be a bit 'adventurous' with each other, I'm sure you would both still enjoy it and keep your experiences with each other fresh and engaging. Perhaps reading some of Hakko's GrogPorn™ before the game would help, as well? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted May 20, 2003 Share Posted May 20, 2003 Originally posted by MikeyD: Sometimes this is a convenient feature, sometimes it's annoying. Last night I picked all infantry defending a village with a single KT in hiding. I was hoping to get overrun with lots of T-34s and infantry but the AI knew what I had selected and spent all its points on big guns.Huh? That is the first time I hear that claim, so I just tested that. Did you by any chance notice that the AI purchases its units BEFORE you purchase yours? Unless it is a mindreader (in which case Charles will soon be abducted by the US government and interned in Area 51), I wonder how it should manage that. There are enough ludicrous claims about the game flying about, no need to add to them with something that is very easy to check, and clearly wrong. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted May 20, 2003 Share Posted May 20, 2003 Originally posted by redwolf: It doesn't even seem to take rarity into account. I do not think this statement is correct. I would not put money onto it, but I am pretty sure that the automated purchase function does take rarity into account for vehicles. Been a while we discussed this on the beta board. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave H Posted May 20, 2003 Share Posted May 20, 2003 You might consider playing PBEM against another person instead of the computer AI. I can promise you that you will not know what the defender will have. Sounds like you're ready to move on to something that will never remind you of playing against the computer. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted May 21, 2003 Share Posted May 21, 2003 Originally posted by Dave H: You might consider playing PBEM against another person instead of the computer AI. I can promise you that you will not know what the defender will have. Sounds like you're ready to move on to something that will never remind you of playing against the computer. If you are still talking about Quickbattles, then you trade the (IMHO) bad automatic selector for a pre-game contest for pricing optimization. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seanachai Posted May 21, 2003 Share Posted May 21, 2003 Originally posted by redwolf: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Dave H: You might consider playing PBEM against another person instead of the computer AI. I can promise you that you will not know what the defender will have. Sounds like you're ready to move on to something that will never remind you of playing against the computer. If you are still talking about Quickbattles, then you trade the (IMHO) bad automatic selector for a pre-game contest for pricing optimization. </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chad Harrison Posted May 21, 2003 Share Posted May 21, 2003 I have always wondered about how the computer picks forces. I am under the impression that it does not like regular troops. If it can go veteran it usually will; otherwise it will always go with green troops for me. But every once and awhile I will let the computer pick forces just so I can get some random vehicles and support weapons that I would never buy. In my opinion, its just fine how it is. No not realistic by any means, but it works. Chad 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted May 21, 2003 Share Posted May 21, 2003 Originally posted by Seanachai: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by redwolf: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Dave H: You might consider playing PBEM against another person instead of the computer AI. I can promise you that you will not know what the defender will have. Sounds like you're ready to move on to something that will never remind you of playing against the computer. If you are still talking about Quickbattles, then you trade the (IMHO) bad automatic selector for a pre-game contest for pricing optimization. </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted May 21, 2003 Share Posted May 21, 2003 Yes, I've seen the "AI picking units", or whatever it says, before I pick mine. But I've just run into too many hvys vs hvys, lights vs lights, infantry vs infantry. If the AI isn't reading what I pick and adjusting the only other explanation is strong subconscious esp on my part, picking to match the AI without realising it! ...I feel you are thinking of the number three. And of a pony! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterX Posted May 21, 2003 Share Posted May 21, 2003 Because there are people who like quickbattles instead of scenarios but who don't want to play that pre-battle price optimization sub-game. You mean the preliminary, cherry-picking, Stug-stocking phase? Redwolf, some of us have the mental wherewithall to figure this out this 'sub-game' but are wearying of the stupefying sameness in force composition, weather, nationalities, and engagement types that this option produces. But as it is right now you have too much of a chance to end up with a force which is outright unsuitable for a given battle. I don't think you,ve tried out the Auto Select function in a long time. If one gets the average 1000 pt force from a ladder site match and compares it to Auto Select I'll bet $20 that that latter picked out a more representative force for the chosen time period. There are problem with computer select, principally that the initiator can restart the process if unhappy with his troops. Also, given the defensive advantage in CMBB, sometimes the attacking force is inadequate to the job, esp. if the random terrain turns out to be denuded of cover- like trees and hills. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted May 21, 2003 Share Posted May 21, 2003 I actually did try about 10 quickbattles with automatic selection when trying out 1.03. I have still seen APCs on defense, totally insufficient AT weapons, mortar carriers on small plain open maps, towed guns on attack. I think I didn't see too many pioneers this time. All of this may be realistic, but it is not sufficient for enjoying quickbattle play. What would be needed are basic checks for useless stuff in a given situation and a mechanism to make sure a basic supply of AT and AP equipment is given (maybe parametrised for the forces in question). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterX Posted May 21, 2003 Share Posted May 21, 2003 I have still seen APCs on defense, totally insufficient AT weapons, mortar carriers on small plain open maps, towed guns on attack. I think I didn't see too many pioneers this time. In other words, just like real war? One wonders if, at the command level depicted in CM, that of a Major, just how much input yopu would have in force selection. My hunch is- very little. The Random Map Generator does, OTOH, seem to create too many treeless maps. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted May 21, 2003 Share Posted May 21, 2003 You really don't get it, do you? If somebody has a major part of his points wasted on APCs on the defense, then it is nowhere near a fair game anymore. I am talking about people who don't want to start out with a 20% force disadvantage by moving some useless vehicles right off the map. I am talking about a replacement for human selection, not a replacement for scenario design. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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