Just a small note of appreciation.....

[bigred]

Just wanted to state my appreciation of the, imho, superb and extremely insightful posts here by such prolific and knowledgeable posters as Jacobs_Ladder2, blue division, BigDuke6, undead reindeer cavalry, JasonC and many, many others.

As a WWII enthusiast and relatively newbie to CM, the rewards of reading the posts of these people regarding the history, tactical and strategic decisions and the debate about why they were made during WWII are simply immense.

Not to mention the detailed explanations of the endless nuances and mechanics of CM. Priceless.

Anyways....thank you.

[ May 02, 2005, 02:26 AM: Message edited by: bigred ]

[Bogdan]

You're right. I always enjoy reading JasonC's posts, it's extremely usefull

[MikeyD]

You don't realise how knowledgeable this board is until you bump into an 'outsider' who, upon looking at CMBB, exclaims that he didn't realise Germany had ever invaded Russia! Yikes!

With people like that you have to shake your head at their comprehension of history.This reminds me of a story. I was at work when I heard a radio report that a surprising percentage of American college freshmen didn't know when Columbus discovered America. I commmented to a nearby coworker on the report and he said "Yeh, that's awful that they don't know... um... that was sometime in the late 1800's, right?"

[annihilate_this_week]

I like the people who think the USSR was an Axis power better....cuz they usually think axis=bad, usa=good, ussr=bad, so ussr must've been axis..stone logic

[bigred]

It is amazing, isn't it?

And to think the majority of those people are at least high school graduates (assuming we're talking the USA here). I guess there is a reason public school grad math/english and other scores have been in a free fall drop for decades now.

[JasonC]

You are most welcome. Please discuss educational standards on the general forum. Personally, I see no particular reason for everyone to be an expert on any of this stuff, unless it floats their boat. It floats mine, and I presume those here. I see nothing to be gained by looking down noses at those who care about entirely different things instead.

[dieseltaylor]

And normally he seems quite a nice guy.

[JasonC]

Hmm? Sorry, I don't get it. I wasn't trying to be snippy, just to point out that there isn't any citizenship obligation anywhere to be an expert on WW II. If people enjoy it as a hobby great - I certainly do. But I don't think it makes me better than anybody else who doesn't know about it. It was just a point about charity toward those who don't share one's expertise about something, that is all.

[Yair Iny]

JC, while I appreciate the charitable nature of your response (IMHO, in line with the charitable nature of your contributing your knowledge around these fora), I think MikeyD's and others' comments, which could benefit from a less high browed attitude, are nonetheless valid.

Those who know nothing of history, especially that of a global effect on the world today, or of their own country, have little to offer in terms of an opinion of contemporary issues.

The only way to benefit from history is to know it, then to act on it as it applies today. If we ignore the mass murder of Armenians by the Turks we invite a Holocaust on Jews, Gypsies, etc. If we ignore the Genocide in Roanda, we invite murder in Darfour. Or on less dramatic terms, consider an American who knows nothing about Nixon, dealing with a Presidential corruption scandal.

Those who don't know history are missing an important tool in dealing with today's reality, so yes, there is a civic obligation to be aware of the past.

Just my two bit opinion...

[JasonC]

I understand the view but I do not share it. Aunt Macy in Duluth may know nothing of history, and still have a lively common sense, and a quite definite opinion about which moral issues are serious enough to risk her son's life over. While a learned history professor can spout nonsense about imaginary ideological causes and support a pack of madmen committing horrible crimes.

I am not saying knowledge of contemporary events or of history cannot help - clearly they can - but they are neither necessary nor sufficient for sound political opinions. Governing ourselves is not something to leave to experts because they know things, since scoundrels can know things like anybody else. And I just don't think it is realistic to expect everyone to be expert in such matters.

One can try to ask for a little knowledge, I suppose. But a little knowledge looks like distortion and cant, to any man who really knows a subject. It seems to me more sensible to just acknowledge that there will be experts in such matters and to listen to and learn from them, but not to trust them or defer to them, nor to lack the confidence to judge for oneself whatever they say. With nothing more than morals and common sense to go on, often as not.

Sure it is a good thing to know recent politics, to know the massive events that shaped the contemporary world. It is a good thing to know Thucydides and Tactitus and what principles of politics are always with us. But it is more important to know the golden rule and to think for yourself, than any of that.

One man's opinion.

[SgtMuhammed]

As a historian in training (working on my MA with sights set on PhD and teaching) I have to agree with Jason. I would be nice if everyone new and learned from the lessons of the past but such has never been the case.

Everyone is convinced that they can do it right even in situations where there is no right answer. Even horrific events that pervade the public conscience, such as the Holocaust, do nothing to deter repeat occurances. How many times do we get bombarded with the "We shall never forget" pledges only to stand by and watch as tens or even hundreds of thousands are slaughtered in Yugoslavia, Rawanda, Somalia, Iraq, Cambodia, the list goes on.

Too often people who claim to learn the lessons of history have learned the wrong ones.

It is easy to take a stand with words. I is a lot harder to put your but on the line to do what is right. Doing what is right has little to do with knowing the details of the past.

[Wartgamer]

Learn spelling.

[Tim Hughes]

http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=23;t=010687;p=2#000038

"vehcile"

Get a life.

[dieseltaylor]

JC

Given the two examples posted , Russia, and Columbus would fall into general knowledge rather than anything else this talk about experts in fields seems a bit of a leap from your remark

"I wasn't trying to be snippy, just to point out that there isn't any citizenship obligation anywhere to be an expert on WW II."

I do not disagree with that statement but as the comments were fairly well known facts ...... and Columbus Day being a national holiday............ anniversaries of the end of WW2

Anyway my basic assumption in life are there are educated folks and uneducated folks and commonsense is not ncessarily included with either. However the educated commonsense person has a larger store of information to base decisions on, or realise when he/she is being fed moonshine.

I do not wish to be picky either but the pursuit of knowledge seems to be downplayed in your subsequent post :

"One can try to ask for a little knowledge, I suppose. But a little knowledge looks like distortion and cant, to any man who really knows a subject. It seems to me more sensible to just acknowledge that there will be experts in such matters and to listen to and learn from them, but not to trust them or defer to them, nor to lack the confidence to judge for oneself whatever they say. With nothing more than morals and common sense to go on, often as not."

Your argument seems to be you cannot hope to know much almost "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing" so therefore listen to the experts, and discard what you do not agree with.

Very "big brother".

[Pzman]

Originally posted by MikeyD:

You don't realise how knowledgeable this board is until you bump into an 'outsider' who, upon looking at CMBB, exclaims that he didn't realise Germany had ever invaded Russia! Yikes!

With people like that you have to shake your head at their comprehension of history.This reminds me of a story. I was at work when I heard a radio report that a surprising percentage of American college freshmen didn't know when Columbus discovered America. I commmented to a nearby coworker on the report and he said "Yeh, that's awful that they don't know... um... that was sometime in the late 1800's, right?"

I can tell you the number one reason for that right now. Most youth are not interested in history. When I went to highschool (not that long ago) we didn't learn anything about WWII till grade 12 and even then it was limited to the overall setting. Although we did cover all the turn points of the war, Midway, Stalingrade etc.

[JasonC]

Right, sure, the motto of MiniLuv is "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" and of MiniTru is "think for yourself" - so big brother. You don't seem to get that you are all ignorant gits to me, I just don't hold ignorance against anybody because it is the natural state of mankind, and being well informed doesn't prevent me from being a stubborn, preachy bore and knowing it.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by JasonC:

Right, sure, the motto of MiniLuv is "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" and of MiniTru is "think for yourself" - so big brother. You don't seem to get that you are all ignorant gits to me, I just don't hold ignorance against anybody because it is the natural state of mankind, and being well informed doesn't prevent me from being a stubborn, preachy bore and knowing it.

THANK YOU. The rest of us stubborn, preachy bores were getting tired of seeing JasonC fanboy posts.

I appreciate people who use their turn signals when they drive, or hold open doors for little old ladies. Like JasonC, I don't think they particularly have to know squat about WW II or Canadian history in order to lead good lives or be worthy people. It is rewarding to be able to demonstrate a shared knowledge of a favourite subject from time to time, and be recognized for same. I think most people who are looked up to in such a manner eschew the "cult of personality" and kind of wonder "what's the big deal?" While those of more humble abilities in that same field of endeavour look up and say "are you kidding?"

I have engaged in fanboy hero worship in the past, in my younger days, in a pre-internet mentorship with a German Army historian. I've also been lucky to receive "fan mail" re: my books and website endeavours. They encourage me to keep going, but I would never suggest that they make me something I'm not - which I think is JasonC's point, unless I read him incorrectly.

[Dandelion]

Big Brother? I dropped off the cart there.

IIRC the society in Big Brother is exactly one of half-educated people who know much enough to feel they know everything and be dead certain about everything, but little enough to easily fall prey to distortions and manipulation. Whereas those who know nothing at all pose a serious threat to Big Brother since the halftruths and veils spread by the Truth Ministry mean nothing to them anyway. They know only face value and common sense.

The fact that those who know much form part of the etablishment seems only to reinforce JCs point on knowing more not being the same as knowing better.

The book is mentioned in it's truest context though. An excellent point of Mr Orwell in that book is that history is a thing created, not a documentation of the past. History changes every day and there is no such thing as objectivity in historical studies, it is not a science with repeatable experiments. And it is of course created for a purpouse. So I for one much prefer people with no knowledge of history to those with little knowledge. In the first category I place academics as well, since any study of history will at the end land you in a realisation of how painfully little you know, and make you deeply uncertain about everything.

Another one mans opinion.

Big Red, this thread isn't developing quite the way you had imagined, right?

Cheers

Dandelion

[Dandelion]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

THANK YOU. The rest of us stubborn, preachy bores were getting tired of seeing JasonC fanboy posts.

Come now Michael. We all appreciate this comrades tireless work for the community. Had he not had the fibre, staunch and endurance of a true teacher, you would actually have been put to work around here.

Remember the "I like man like Dorosh" thread? That was back in the days when you liked helping Noobs out. You get no more of those threads from just surfing around and being Canadian, you have to put hard labour into it. Like JC does.

"cult of personality"

A post-Stalinist Marxist expression from a liberal Canadian. That I should live to see the day. Must be collateral from the Big Brother debate.

I have engaged in fanboy hero worship in the past, in my younger days, in a pre-internet mentorship with a German Army historian.

It wasn't JC was it?

I think Big Red is a respectable and fine character to publicly express his gratitude. If there is admiration in his tone, then it will be because he sees it fit. Too few men express these things in our cynical times. JC will feel encouraged and fuelled up for his future labours. The community stays alive and might even multiply.

Where do I, and you come along too now Michael, sign up as a fanboys?

Cheers

Dandelion

[bigred]

Big Red, this thread isn't developing quite the way you had imagined, right?

Dandelion;

Well, not quite my friend. )

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Dandelion:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

THANK YOU. The rest of us stubborn, preachy bores were getting tired of seeing JasonC fanboy posts.

Come now Michael. We all appreciate this comrades tireless work for the community. Had he not had the fibre, staunch and endurance of a true teacher, you would actually have been put to work around here.

Remember the "I like man like Dorosh" thread? That was back in the days when you liked helping Noobs out. You get no more of those threads from just surfing around and being Canadian, you have to put hard labour into it. Like JC does. </font>

[JonS]

I think you're fantastic Mike. Can I be your fanboi?

[Glider]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

...

I appreciate people who use their turn signals when they drive, or hold open doors for little old ladies...

Well, it is true that you can be illiterate and still be a better person than many of the academicians. Whether the average illiterate citizen X would become a better, or at least a wiser person if thoroughly educated, that is an entirely different matter.

If you consider most of the education (including history) to be a tale about other people's life experiences you are given an opportunity to learn from without having to actually live them through - then I do think that it is beneficial.

Also, I wonder just how much "good" people who are well-trained in the art of credit card use and generally not very interested in other things are contributing to the society. Personally, I would expect a "good" society composed of such brain-dead individuals to fall apart rather soon.

In other words, if I meet a person who doesn't know which continent he is in or whether he will fall off the edge of the world onto three elephants if he step outside his country's borders, well lets just say that all his door-holding and do-gooding will not save him from the (entirely subjective) label "idiot"

[Code13]

Henry Ford once said "history is bunk". He was a tit.

To not know your history is to not know your present. If you dont know your present you cant determine your future. (hey are we back to big brother?)

But the simple fact is if you dont understand how the world got to be where it is now, there is no way you can shape it for the future to avoid the same events again, a lack of historical knowledge means there is no way we can ever claim to live in a fully functioning democracy because we lack the ability to determine our own future.

It is not high brow stuff, it isnt a nitty gritty knowledge of details but simply an understanding of who we are and where we came from.

Europe was shaped in incalculable ways by the the two World Wars, and as a consequence so was the rest of the world.

To know why we went to war in 1914 is to know why we went to war in 1939, which then tells us why we went to war in Korea, why the US went to war in Vietnam, why the Cuban Missile Crisis happened, why the two Gulf Wars happened and why the next war will happen, and that next war, and its avoidance is why we must know our history.

and to be frank I an appalled at any student of history thinking any different.

[Dandelion]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

I HAVE NEVER VOTED LIBERAL IN MY LIFE!

Ah, frame of reference collision. I forget that you colonials still apply the original French concept of liberals being the people sitting on the left and conservatives sitting on the right.

In Europe however we have developed two new interesting ideologies these last few centuries, socialism and fascism. Placing these to extreme left and right automatically transforms liberals and conservatives to middle-of-the-road over here. So, by calling you a Canadian liberal, I meant no reference to any specific party in Canada, merely that you will be a moderate and reasonable chap, as compared to Stalin.

Really, could Tony Blair ever have a cult?

Ah yes indeed, indeed he can and did. "Bambi" Blair. I'd say Blair is the one politician who actually had a inter-European cult following him, including other European leaders. Well him and Anthony Giddens. I believed in them too, at the time, sincerely and devotedly. Seems so surreal today but I dare say the two might have won the election of any Western European country save France and Germany at the time, haven't seen his like in European popularity since Churchill. Another Englishman - is there a pattern? But Blair is Labour, thus a socialist. It's that Scottish fellow who is the liberal leader. I think. He sounds very Scottish.

I am not drifting off topic here am I?

Or one that compared to Michael Jackson's?

Mr Blair needs votes and thus cuddles with miners, not minors.

My MUCH younger pre-internet days, as mentioned.

Wasn't Mr Jackson was it?

Nah seriously. There is a streak of generosity in people that make people teach. Be it formally or via a personal relation. I'm glad you met this guy who encouraged your interest in the war, if you hadn't you wouldn't be here contributing.

As for heros, I actually have a person who I feel I could call a hero in a boyish sense, even in the face of adult realisation that nobody is ever more than human. I mention it not least as he happends to be a Canadian, your Brigadier Roméo A. Dallaire. Maybe I should follow Big Reds example and write him as much.

I think I will actually.

Cheers

Dandelion