Soviet AT

[l.cassidy]

Meanwhile about 100 82mm mortar rounds are landing around the Panzers, which are buttoned.

Why waste 82mm (wimpy) arty over Panzers, Comrade Corvidaevich? I'm sure there must be more suitable weapons in your arsenal to avenge the tragic loss of Grandma Kasovich's chicken coop & resident rooster...

Nice thread, guys.

Keep us posted.

Cheers,

Cassidy

[John Kettler]

JasonC and Corvidae,

The other issue I forgot to mention is that in lots of situations, the artillery fire lands perpendicular to one's own lines, not parallel as it should. This makes organizing defensive fires decidely challenging. I rather suspect artillerymen of the period knew enough trig and their weapons well enough to be able to shoot parallel to their own lines.

(leaves to begin preparing for a seance with ghost of Andreas's grandfather, the one in the Beobachstungabteilung during the War; is heard muttering "I need answers, damn it!")

Regards,

John Kettler

[JasonC]

Yes thin lines are annoying. So shoot target wide, and two modules side by side. Oops, if you are trying to aim every single flight of shells independently, that doesn't work, does it?

See, it is just another reason to provide more modules but less reactive ones. Then players don't try to hit the exact 20x40m grid, they hit the whole 100x200m area, but thinner each place within it.

[Corvidae]

Things are begining to look interesting.

Turn 8.

2 columns of german tanks are advancing north by northwest.

[JasonC]

3-4 ATRs firing, the 82mm barrage lingering and adjusting to my right. Nothing heavy has shown itself yet.

[Cuirassier]

Comrade Corvidaevich,

What is this buisness with 82mm mortars and ATR's. STAVKA demands that the true excellence of Soviet weaponry and the undeniable courage of the Soviet fighting soldier be utilized to its fullest. The NKVD is on its way for encouragement.

Soviet High Command

[Corvidae]

Comrades Cuirassierov and l.cassidoff......

It appears that there may be traitors to our holy mother russia, and they are standing between myself and comrade stalin. They have failed o assign me any of the weapons I demanded. But with the will of the heroes of the proletariate, and the courage of same. I shall overcome all obstacles.

Attend your own commands and be silent.

Let the heroes of the soviet union do their job.

I dont see either of your flabby backsides on the map,, so shut your vodka disposal equipment.

[ April 26, 2006, 08:49 AM: Message edited by: Corvidae ]

[LongLeftFlank]

"The next three days will be terrible...."

[John Kettler]

Corvidae and JasonC,

Am pretty much fried right now and dog tired, too, but I wanted to let you know that I found some good material on this topic in Cornish's IMAGES OF KURSK,

page 171 et seq., describing the attack on the October State Farm by an LSSAH Kampfgruppe consisting of ~40 tanks (including Panthers and Tigers) and StuGs, plus what sounds like a Panzer Grenadier battalion in 251s and heavy air support vs. fully dug-in 3rd Battalion, 26th Guards Airborne Regiment. Defense has HMGs, battalion and regimental artillery (ATGs?), with divisional artillery and RGK battalions providing a curtain of defensive barrage fire. Engrossing read! Defense doesn't open fire until infantry has debussed from 251s and is only 200 meters out, whereupon all hell breaks loose.

The book has many other accounts. For planning purposes, I'd say this is close to the upper end of what you'd see in the way of a well-supported

battalion strongpoint defending a vulnerable division boundary (in this case with the 95th Guards Rifle Division).

Regards,

John Kettler

[JasonC]

Slight problem, JK, in what that says about the reliability of the source. LSSAH did not have any Panthers in the battle of Kursk. They were all with 48 Pz Corps to the west, mostly working with the Gross Deutchland PD. Das Reich had a Panther battalion, but it was in training back in Germany. Those were not sent east until August, and they first entered combat on 22 August. No SS formation prior to that had any Panthers.

[John Kettler]

JasonC,

Somehow, I rather suspected someone would say something like that. The bibliography in the book is weak and seems partial, but from the text the description is from the Soviet side, for the text reads " from the Soviet account of the 9th Guards Airborne..." Nor could I find a suitable book in the bibliography. The account might be a war diary extract or perhaps, be embedded in, say, Rokossovskiy's memoirs or extracted from Glantz's CLASH OF THE TITANS. I really can't say, though, based on what little I have to work with.

It would appear, though, that either more work was needed in AFV recognition or that someone made the enemy more daunting to make the outcome seem more impressive.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Corvidae]

turn 10;

Enemy tanks Engaged at Medium range.

[l.cassidy]

* takes a swig of vodka *

With what, Comrade? Slingshots???

* takes another, longer, swig of vodka *

[JasonC]

JK - or, possibly, it is just another entry in that genre of fiction that usually begins "the heroic shock workers of the revolutionary proletariat confronted the lifeless mechanical facists hordes and..." With all the equipment and tactics made up out of generalities and doctrine and what sounds Sergeant Rock-ee.

Here is what Glantz says -

After a short conference at corps HQ (aside - to digest a counterattack on the left that took SS-T out of the plan by putting it on the tactical defensive), Hausser ordered L to employ its reformed panzer group in an attack on Soviet positions NE of Oktiabr'skii State Farm. At the same time, the division's recon battalion was to attack on the panzer group's left flank along the south bank of the Psel from Andreevka toward Mikhailovka "with the intent of solidifying the loose contact L had withT in Andrejewka".

The panzer group and recon battalion attacked at 1200 hours, but after encountering a hail of Soviet fire and strong resistence, both attacks faltered. During a sharp 30 minute engagement the panzer group seized a single hill along the ridge NW of Oct. State Farm but then ran smack into a solid antitank front reinforced by dug in tanks on the far side of the ridge (i.e. the reverse slope). Simultaneously, the recon battalion penetrated into Mikhailovka but was forced to withdraw to hill 241.6 by heavy Soviet counterattacks and devastating artillery and antitank fire from the northern bank of the Psel (no doubt because the L main effort had not cleared that area because its own attack failed, and the recon battalion was mostly in light armor etc). Two hour later the Soviets compounded German consternation by commencing heavy armored counterattacks in both sectors.

Hausser's assault tactics (my gloss - i.e. his excessive aggressiveness, he should have transitioned to tactical defense earlier) had played right into Vatutin's and Rotmistrov's hands. Both of the Soviet commanders had planned to open the day on the defensive in the critical sector between the Psel and the Prokhorovka road and then to counterattack as required. To that end, during the night they formed the 18th and 29th Tank Corps into several distinctive defensive belts, with infantry, motor rifle, and dug in tanks forward, backed up by strong armor and antitank strongpoints formed in solid ranks to the rear. Farther to the rear, they places the corps' remaining armor, poised in assembly areas from which they could counterattack.

(My gloss - the reverse slope previously mentioned was doubtless visible to the successive lines of AT - tank positions, while infantry held the crest itself. Hence the sharp rise in AT firepower as one crested).

Glantz continues - In this fashion the remnants of the 29th tank corps' 31st and 32nd tank brigades took some measure of revenge on the Germans who had ravished them the previous day. When L's panzer group ground its way through the infantry of the 9th Guards airborne division and the 53rd Motorized rifle brigade, it ran into the 2 Soviet tank brigades backed up by the remaining guns of the 1000th antitank artillery regiment.

Within hours after repelling L's final offensive effort, the two Soviet brigades again went over to the attack with supporting infantry, only to be halted and thrown back just north of Komsomolets State Farm. L reported "At 12:40 hours, this enemy attack collapsed at our main battle line. Our defensive success is to be ascribed primarily to the artillery regiment, the werfer regiment 55, and the concentrated fire of our heavy infantry weapons."

Glantz then quotes a not very convincing statement from Rotmistrov, which does however say the AT weapons waited for 500-600m range before opening fire. Since that is doctrine and the rest is generalities and he is too senior to have much personal tactical detail, I don't trust that bit much either. (Incidentally, though, the reason for those ranges is the Russian 76mm was effective against 80mm plate at those ranges, despite what CM shows). He doesn't say anything about armored infantry debusing at 200m, though.

Overall, the L attack was made at steeply negative overall odds, but reached and crossed the crest line, probably because it was mostly infantry on the near side of it. Behind it were, in front line, 2 depleted tank brigades some of them dug in, and 76mm ATGs also dug in, numbers uncertain but probably in the 12 to 20 range. (1000th AT was previously engaged, but the motor rifle brigade would contribute its own etc). The infantry odds were, at the most generous, 2 battalions in SPWs attacking, vs. up to 8 on the defending side, split between front and rear slope perhaps 50-50.

When that fire drove back the panzer group, it could shift to the lighter recon group on the left and drive it back with ranged flanking fire. That cleared the way back to the crest.

The Russians then counterattacked onto the German side of the hill, probably with reserve tank brigades, not just the leftovers Glantz mentions, plus their superior infantry. But that far back the Pz Gdrs of L were in position. They called down soft firepower - rockets and arty and mortars - and it broke up the attack. Undoubtedly, it forces the Russian infantry back into cover and then back over the crestline. The tanks could not proceed further alone.

So the real story is a reverse slope bristling with enough 76mm guns (towed and on T-34s) and 4 to 1 local infantry odds, since the Germans weren't bringing their own motorized or leg infantry forward, but were trying to attack with just the mech stuff. Clearly, they had no business trying to attack that way. They presumably expected a much weaker position, based on losses they had inflicted on the Russians the previous day.

[JasonC]

Cassidy - 76mm ATGs from my left, a few T-34s shoot n scooting briefly, continued ATR fire. Leading Germans reached minefields at the time the Russians opened fire. A few Maxims also heard. They got a pair of Panzer IVs, basically trading 76s for them (1 76 dea, 1 still alive but facing overwhelming odds right now, expected not to last another minute). Mines got one more. A decent opener.

[Corvidae]

He does seem rather sure of himself.

And sure of his observations.

Leading me to wonder........

.......

.........If he realy knows who he is facing?

[John Kettler]

JasonC,

Appreciate that! The hornet's nest I describe is before the reverse slope defense is encountered. The one I cite is quite specific, right down to the commanders of the two HMG units.

JasonC and Corvidae,

Cornish, p. 60, lists the following details for typical antitank strongpoint composition:

"antitank company or battalion, armed with antitank rifles, an engineer platoon with explosives, an antitank gun company with up to six guns, and two or three tanks or self-propelled guns."

Believe he left out the the SMGs and RPG-43 AT grenades in the first and flamethrowers in the second.

Regards,

John Kettler

[ April 27, 2006, 05:29 PM: Message edited by: John Kettler ]

[JasonC]

Following minute, the remaining old gun dies as predicted. 2 more unmask from the predictable woods covered hill on the right front, get one more Panzer IV on that side, and die before the end of the minute. Net so far, 4 guns traded for 4 Panzer IVs. (Unsurprising, as these are uniform 50mm front models).

8 ATRs and Maxims combined chattering away. ATRs hitting tanks and SPWs, none killed yet. Light arty, 82mm probably, might be 76mm, falling on forward German infantry on my right. I count 118 shells in the most recent minute, easily 300-400 overall so far. Only Maxims slowing infantry on left front. Russian T-34s do not put in another appearance.

[Corvidae]

4 enemy tanks eliminated,

4 45mm AT guns lost,

I should have waited, I got impatient and I opened fire at too great a range. Also I exposed my other pair too early,

Starting to see a few other mistakes I made. This may get tricky.

[JasonC]

The range was fine actually, no problem. It is just a matter of 12 cannons firing back at 2-3 at a time. The relatively successful first minute owed something to one of the guns being right on a ridge top with the tanks lower, resulting in some inability to see or to hit despite being able to see, due to the slope and fall-off-shot modeling limitations (HE lands at zero height on a declining slope, gun modeled as without height, etc). Wasn't more important because some of the overwatching tanks farther back were up on hills themselves, and so had reasonable shots.

Also, one of the tanks was KOed by hidden AT mines, not the guns. The gun to tank exchange was 4 for 3.

[l.cassidy]

Excellent reports guys, keep 'em coming!

Greets,

Cassidy

[JasonC]

One SPW fast moving up on the right hits a mine, immobilization, rolls to a stop well on the other side of the barrier. Two others made it through clean and drop their loads, one other pulls up in front of the mines.

Russian arty continues to fall on the right front, 400-500 rounds to date. Pins a few squads. ATRs ping away, Maxims chatter. Nothing heavy being used and no real impact.

[JasonC]

JK - a cross check on the typical composition of an AT position. 13th Army, the center front line formation on the north face that guarded the way to Ponyri, had 3 separate belts of AT positions, on a front of 32 km and to a depth of up to 30 km.

The front line belt had 44 AT positions with 204 guns. The second line belt had 34 positions with 160 guns. The third line belt had 60 positions with 342 guns. 4-6 guns per position and 1-2 positions per km of front - but layered, even within each belt. The 76mm were typically in 4 gun batteries, 45mm might have 6.

The Germans could and did drive right through such positions, trading off the guns when necessary. The main method for the forward belts was very simple. Put 50 to 100 AFVs on the same km of front, and 4 to 12 guns can't remotely stop them.

[Corvidae]

Enemy half-tracks have reached the cluster of houses on the left. And have disembarked infantry.

2 more half tracks have been immobilized or knocked out by mines.

A mark4 tank appears to be immobilized on the right.

Enemy infantry is in the gully on the right.

Pair of tigers in overwatch are still a problem, as are other pair on attack.

[Guest Mike]

Anti-tank scheme of the 375th Rifle Division at Kursk:

From RKKA (Soviet Army) in WW2 - great site!