Jaws Posted June 24, 2003 Share Posted June 24, 2003 I'm playing CM since the start and yes today it happened again. My reserve of 3x T-34 got bogged on a beautiful day with dry ground??? I need those guys and hope this problem will be solved in CMAK or CMX2. So I like a recovery vehicle or an option to push other vehicles out of there bogged position. :mad: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow 1st Hussars Posted June 24, 2003 Share Posted June 24, 2003 Not in the scope of CM battles.It would involve getting out of the vehicle and hooking up cables and the like.This happens automatically in operations however. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirill S. Posted June 25, 2003 Share Posted June 25, 2003 if there is one tank of equal or greater size available, you can push the bogged tanks out and unbog them. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laxx Posted June 25, 2003 Share Posted June 25, 2003 Kirill, you shure about that ? i never heard it before... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lou2000 Posted June 25, 2003 Share Posted June 25, 2003 Originally posted by Kirill S.: if there is one tank of equal or greater size available, you can push the bogged tanks out and unbog them. Never heard of this either ..... Actually if the ground is soft/muddy enough for a tank to bog ... I'd be a bit cautious about driving another onto the same spot ! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beta1 Posted June 25, 2003 Share Posted June 25, 2003 I've seen tanks push dead tanks around quite frequently, especially if they are blocking roads/bridges but I've bever seen a live tank push another live tank anywhere. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apexicus Posted June 25, 2003 Share Posted June 25, 2003 Originally posted by Shadow 1st Hussars: Not in the scope of CM battles.It would involve getting out of the vehicle and hooking up cables and the like.I have to disagree with this at some level. In one exercise during my army days we were fighting some T-72's with our T-55's and my wingman drove into a "minefield". The exercise "referees" determined that the tank was okay, but had lost a track. T-72's were about 500m away behind a hill out of LOS and we had my other wingman covering us, so we drove right behind the immobilized tank and it's loader came out through the bottom hatch and connected our towing cables and we towed the tank to a safer location. So, my point is, unless a bogged tank is under fire from heavy weapons or significant amounts of small arms fire, it is possible to tow it with another tank during the battle. The time needed for the towing would be probably in most cases around 15-20 minutes, so it's in the CM timeframe especially if you're playing a longer scenario. Of course the tank that had lost it's track would be immobilised for a long time since getting a new track during a battle is quite difficult and installing it would probably take at least half an hour even if the damage is light and several hours and a repair crew in the worst cases. But if the tank is only bogged and the towing tank has enough power to pull it out (in the worst cases you would need two tanks doing the towing) then the bogged tank would be operational as soon as it was pulled out. Just my opinion. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reichenberg Posted June 25, 2003 Share Posted June 25, 2003 I think pushing a bogged tank, at least if it is bogged/immobilised due to poor ground conditions or AT mines is definitely not the smartest thing to do IRL. Chances are pretty high that your vehicle is bogging too (soft ground) or is increasing the damage on the immobilised tank (AT mines). Pulling a tank on the other hand would be doable.....but if it is in the time frame of a typical CM battle?? I don't know!! If you have to be right behind the immobilised tank (as ApexOfMan wrote in his example) includes the same risks than pushing a tank. One has to attach a towing rope and pull the tank off the battlefield. Before that you have to find and engage the enemy (at least on a large map), get damaged and bring another tank close by. Seems to be tight to me. Same counts for a recovery vehicle. Conclusion: I will not fight it, if it is in a later CM engine, but I will not miss it, if it is not included. Regards Uwe 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaws Posted June 25, 2003 Author Share Posted June 25, 2003 Originally posted by ApexOfMan: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Shadow 1st Hussars: Not in the scope of CM battles.It would involve getting out of the vehicle and hooking up cables and the like.I have to disagree with this at some level. In one exercise during my army days we were fighting some T-72's with our T-55's and my wingman drove into a "minefield". The exercise "referees" determined that the tank was okay, but had lost a track. T-72's were about 500m away behind a hill out of LOS and we had my other wingman covering us, so we drove right behind the immobilized tank and it's loader came out through the bottom hatch and connected our towing cables and we towed the tank to a safer location. So, my point is, unless a bogged tank is under fire from heavy weapons or significant amounts of small arms fire, it is possible to tow it with another tank during the battle. The time needed for the towing would be probably in most cases around 15-20 minutes, so it's in the CM timeframe especially if you're playing a longer scenario. Of course the tank that had lost it's track would be immobilised for a long time since getting a new track during a battle is quite difficult and installing it would probably take at least half an hour even if the damage is light and several hours and a repair crew in the worst cases. But if the tank is only bogged and the towing tank has enough power to pull it out (in the worst cases you would need two tanks doing the towing) then the bogged tank would be operational as soon as it was pulled out. Just my opinion. </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flamingknives Posted June 25, 2003 Share Posted June 25, 2003 I've just been reading an article in "Professional Engineer" from the IMechE, covering the work of the REME in Iraq. I describes engineers in an ARV recovering a Challenger 2 under fire after the Challenger was immobilised by an RPG hit to the track. The recovery crew had to remove the duff track with an oxy-acet. torch. At night. Under enemy observation. The more I read of various histories, the more I'm convinced that battlefield engineering should be part of the CM battlefield. Here's hoping it turns up in CMX2 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirill S. Posted June 26, 2003 Share Posted June 26, 2003 I remember doing a test in CMBO where two Shermans were pushing another immobile Sherman around (two only because the tank was awkwardly turned, one would suffice). A three tank company that can only go one way The same is for CMBB. I even remember seeing a T-34 push a bogged T-26 out of the way and instantly unbogging it. After that I used T-34s to unbog other T-34s with ease. Try it, it will surely work. PS: Yes, that would be unrealistic, as a lighter recovery vehicle would be used to unbog a tank, but it is absent from the game. The ability of a tank to unbog an equal or lesser tank simulates this 'recovery vehicle'. [ June 25, 2003, 07:21 PM: Message edited by: Kirill S. ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike_the_wino Posted June 26, 2003 Share Posted June 26, 2003 Originally posted by flamingknives: I've just been reading an article in "Professional Engineer" from the IMechE, covering the work of the REME in Iraq. I describes engineers in an ARV recovering a Challenger 2 under fire after the Challenger was immobilised by an RPG hit to the track. The recovery crew had to remove the duff track with an oxy-acet. torch. At night. Under enemy observation. The more I read of various histories, the more I'm convinced that battlefield engineering should be part of the CM battlefield. Here's hoping it turns up in CMX2 Save it for a "Ghost Recon"-type of FPS. Granted, improved sporadic sighting of troops at night would be cool. But do you want to have to spend points on a "repair/engineer/mechanic/whatever crew" and then park it next to a stranded vehicle in hopes of recovery? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flamingknives Posted June 26, 2003 Share Posted June 26, 2003 If the scale of CMX2 is similar to how most people play CM:BB, then yes, I would pay for recovery/engineering vehicles. It's about time that the AVRE earned it's keep. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M1A1TC Posted July 6, 2003 Share Posted July 6, 2003 I have helped recover many M1A1's with my tank or 88 if there was a mechanic team near. Usually they got to the site within 30 min. Than it would take anywhere from 30 to 60 min to fix things up. I dont think all this is worth modeling in CM. Bogged vehicles piss me off too, but I think it should be changed to less friquently instead of creating a new unit. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Private Bluebottle Posted July 6, 2003 Share Posted July 6, 2003 Originally posted by flamingknives: If the scale of CMX2 is similar to how most people play CM:BB, then yes, I would pay for recovery/engineering vehicles. It's about time that the AVRE earned it's keep. Except AVsRE are not recovery vehicles. You want REME LAD or ARV vehicles. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eichenbaum Posted July 6, 2003 Share Posted July 6, 2003 Yes, great idea. Build in a function for pushing or towing. Once I had a Puma (PSW) immobilized. It's tires got blown up by a T-70 Tank. I had made a curved advance, around the enemy (1 km drive) and the Puma came out behind the enemy's line of defence, it was standing in the middle of the enemy's territory. In the next set-up I noticed that the Puma was abandoned, while all the crew came out alive and well. Because of a coming night-fall I hoped that they would repair the Puma over night and bring it back to me in the morning. But my enemy knew about this, he saw the red tubes that written 'A-B-A-N-D-O-N-E-D' above this vehicle.. Just a few hundreds metres away stood a SüdKampf TowTruck hidden in the trees. That time I wished the TowTruck could drive to my Puma, hook it on, and bring it back to the save zone behind my line-of-assault!. I tried... and tried... but no... !@#$%^* Eichenbaum 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAsta_KFC Posted July 6, 2003 Share Posted July 6, 2003 Originally posted by Kirill S.: if there is one tank of equal or greater size available, you can push the bogged tanks out and unbog them. Are you sure about that? I remember reading a thread a while ago where a member ran some tests regarding this. I think the results were once a tank is immobilised due to bogging, the game engine sets it on permanently immobilised, despite pushing it out of the area. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flamingknives Posted July 6, 2003 Share Posted July 6, 2003 Except AVsRE are not recovery vehicles. You want REME LAD or ARV vehicles. Granted, but I want engineering ops too. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirill S. Posted July 6, 2003 Share Posted July 6, 2003 Originally posted by MAsta_KFC: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Kirill S.: if there is one tank of equal or greater size available, you can push the bogged tanks out and unbog them. Are you sure about that? I remember reading a thread a while ago where a member ran some tests regarding this. I think the results were once a tank is immobilised due to bogging, the game engine sets it on permanently immobilised, despite pushing it out of the area. </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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